Why do you like Obama?

[Brockyman]

There is more to foreign policy than impressing your allies. Small European countries such as the Netherlands have very few enemies. Obama just isn't a very threatening person, and thats one of the reasons I don't like him. McCain may not be very likable to you leftist Europeans, but he's an old angry white war veteran who was tortured, and thats what the enemies of the US would either be afraid of or grudgingly respect.

Perhaps not enemies (save for Taliban and Iraqi insurgents, perhaps), but a lot of antagonistic countries, those hostile to the USA or the EU. That said...
...I doubt any serious politician would fear a 72-year old man...

My point was more aimed at the US's business relations. I feel that Obama is more capable of bringing new goodwill to Europe and other regions than a Republican. Modern Republicans are, in our stereotypical minds, nothing more but silly Christian warmongering cavemen, who have yet to read any Rousseau or Voltaire. Why would we want to deal with that?

Obama on the other hand, is more 'like us'.

Have you ever thought that YOU might need to get over your sterotypes of Republicans? McCain is just as capable of bringing goodwill. Plus, I didn't know that Rousseau (who was more like a modern day Conservative then anything) or Voltaire were prerequisites to dealing with Europeans... I best dust off my copy of "Julie, ou la nouvelle Héloïse" before writing further. (I was going for a cheap laugh..sorry)

The only thing that makes me irritated at Europe is I know that you want a weaker United States (I forget the exact poll), and I'm not really sure why. If it wasn't for a strong United States, WW2 and the Cold War might have ended differently, and in a way you might not have liked, and with Iran, Russia, and China getting larger and more hairy balls, you might need us again to defend your Union'ed butts in the future...esp the French (ha ha, another cheap laugh).

For some reason, Europeans seem to forget about WW2 quite a bit, b/c sometimes it seems like that you'd rather use the Chamberlian tactic in dealing with Iran, China, Russia, North Korea, Al Queda, ect. Didn't work to well for Chamberlian..., or anyone else. I'm all about peace talks and opening a dialouge, but not with "Hitler-esc" tyrants like Ayatollah Ali Khamenei or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or even Hugo Chávez.

I love Europe and the Europen people, and I do think President Bush has made some mistakes in dealing with our buddies across the pond, but to root for Obama is not in your self interests. A strong United States means a strong Europe as well, and I ask that whatever the new administration is, that you welcome them, work with them, and help generate a wonderful world for us all.

 

[Brett Alex]

What radical things did Obama learn from Rev Wright? Does Obama share Wright's hatred for white people and America?

I'm gonna go out a limb and say he learnt nothing.

If they believed that everything Wright said was true, wouldn't Obama's campaign not be distancing themselves from the Reverend?

What radical things did Obama learn from Bill Ayres? This is a man that bombed buildings targeting civilians, govt. officals and police officers. He is also non repentant for his actions, and wished he'd "done more". Does Obama share Ayres radical, left wing views and are they good for America?

C'mon chocolate, you're not serious are you?

Do you honestly believe that as elected President of the United States Barrack Obama would be running around bombing government buildings? Do you really think that if he was Commander in Chief of the United States, that he would be sneaking out of the Oval Office to shoot policeman? Do you think that people would let him preach white hate in the State of the Union address?

Have a think about it before you start hurling mud based solely on the company he keeps.

 

[Brockyman]

I do think it's fair to point out that they aren't trying to call Obama a terrorist. The point (and it is a vaild one) is that Bill Ayres was an important part of Obama's life, along with Rev Wright, and other questionable people.

What radical things did Obama learn from Rev Wright? Does Obama share Wright's hatred for white people and America?

What radical things did Obama learn from Bill Ayres? This is a man that bombed buildings targeting civilians, govt. officals and police officers. He is also non repentant for his actions, and wished he'd "done more". Does Obama share Ayres radical, left wing views and are they good for America?

These are fair questions to ask. These "people" helped shape Obama's life and thought patterns. The McCain campaign has gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to say that Obama isn't a Muslim, a terrorist, or a bad guy in general, but does he have the judgement and capacity to lead?

It's accurate to say that Obama met Ayres. It's also accurate to state that Ayres used to be part of a group that used small homemade bombs to cause property damage in protest of the war in Vietnam. It's also accurate to quote Ayres as saying he wished he could have done more to oppose the war in Vietnam.

There's a article about it here that actually examines the relationship between Obama and Ayres, and asks exactly the questions you're talking about: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

My problem with the McCain Campaign's treatment of Ayres is that they try to use the facts to suggest that Ayes is still a terrorist (he did what he did to oppose the war in 'nam, turned himself in, served his time, and has since become a pillar of the community,) or that Obama has close ties with Ayres (he hasn't spoken with or emailed the guy since 2005.)

More than that, though, it's not just the Ayres thing that pisses me off. It's not just Palin's remarks about "palling around." It's not even the way they keep using Obama's middle name when referring to him.

What truly disturbs me is the way McCain's supporters react when one of them stresses "Barrack HUSSEIN Obama!" on the stump.

It's that noise the crowd makes when they hear the word "Hussein." It implies that the crowd hears the name "Hussein" and they think of Saddam Hussein. The suggestion that anybody named Hussein must be a terrorist. It's a ridiculous suggestion, of course. But what frightens me is seeing and hearing, with my own eyes, that the people in that crowd actually believe it. It's not just pandering, it's pandering to ignorance and racism.

Worst of all, it's not even accurate racism. This all goes back to the emails that circulated back in the primaries season, accusing Barrack Obama of everything from being Arabic to being a Muslim to not having a birth certificate. Ever since those first chain letters, the McCain campaign has been stressing the guy's middle name. That's why the Republicans' exagerration of the Ayres thing rubs so many people the wrong way. They see it as just another transparent attempt to try and tie Obama directly to terrorism.

I do respect McCain for telling the truth in recent days, but it's pretty obvious that his base believes the false rumors, and the McCain campaign has been dumping fuel on the fire of those rumors until very recently.

Wow, a good debate! Finally! You've made some really good points

I'm also irritated at the base for the "Hussein" thing (to be honest I've never heard McCain or Palin use it themselves), and the "Muslim" thing, and the "birth certificate" thing. I personally believe that Obama's policies, plans and ideology are plenty enough to defeat him in Nov. He does have Socialist views on a number of things, and if you look at the Soviet Union... you see how well it works.

I still feel that the Ayres connection is a viable and legitimate question about Obama's beliefs, personality, and ideas, along with Wright and Resco, so we'll just have to disagree on that. I don't think its fair to let his actions go lightly as "he served his time and is a pillar of the community". I think that he never served any real time b/c of a technicality in his case. Example: If Timothy McVeigh (OK City Bomber) wasn't executed, and was allowed to leave prison and b/c a "pillar of the community", everyone, liberals and conservatives alike, would be outraged. Ayres "intent" was the same as McVeigh... Ayres should have served life in prison or be executed.

There are also questions about Ayres and Obama's idealism in the "Annenberg Challenge" and other collaberations the two worked on. The discussion would take up too much room, so I'll drop it there for now.

All I ask is that you look away from everything for a moment, and look at the issues. Forget Ayres, Forget the middle name and internet rumors. Look at his policies, look at what he wants to do, and make your mind up that way.

Thanks again my friend for a good, civilized debate!

And about the "alleged" goings-on at rallys. You know as well as I do that there are stupid idiots out there that don't represent McCain, Republicans, or anyone. Also, personally, I think it is possible that Obama supporters (without the knowledge of the campaign) could go in a shout these horrible things just to de-rail support.

 

[AceDiamond]

And about the "alleged" goings-on at rallys. You know as well as I do that there are stupid idiots out there that don't represent McCain, Republicans, or anyone. Also, personally, I think it is possible that Obama supporters (without the knowledge of the campaign) could go in a shout these horrible things just to de-rail support.

Oh I'm sorry, how foolish of me. The GOP has always been happy-happy-nice-nice, especially the people at rallies. And they never ever would be jingoistic or say "I hear he's an arab" to John McCain.

Get real. Get. F'n. Real. McCain created this monster and now you say "oh wait no he totally didn't it's a conspiracy, they never said any of that". Next you'll probably tell me the liberal media digitally spliced in those soundbites.

 

[Brockyman]

What radical things did Obama learn from Rev Wright? Does Obama share Wright's hatred for white people and America?

I'm gonna go out a limb and say he learnt nothing.

If they believed that everything Wright said was true, wouldn't Obama's campaign not be distancing themselves from the Reverend?

What radical things did Obama learn from Bill Ayres? This is a man that bombed buildings targeting civilians, govt. officals and police officers. He is also non repentant for his actions, and wished he'd "done more". Does Obama share Ayres radical, left wing views and are they good for America?

C'mon chocolate, you're not serious are you?

Do you honestly believe that as elected President of the United States Barrack Obama would be running around bombing government buildings? Do you really think that if he was Commander in Chief of the United States, that he would be sneaking out of the Oval Office to shoot policeman? Do you think that people would let him preach white hate in the State of the Union address?

Have a think about it before you start hurling mud based solely on the company he keeps.

I didn't hurl a bit of mud, but I will clarify b/c I could see how you'd think that.

I'm not saying that Obama is going to bomb or kill anything, nor preach hate in a State of the Union. That's a gross exaggeration. I think Obama is a peaceful man, and wouldn't stoop to that.

By RADICAL from Ayres..
1. Ayres' himself claims to be a "communist with a little c". Does Obama believe that Communism is the way to go? Some of his statements and plans seem to agree. When he was asked by a small business man about being taxed more, Obama made a statement (and I don't have the exact quote, forgive me) that he (the businessman) could afford it and wanted to "spread it (wealth, money) around". That is against the free market idea, and democracy.
Communism doesn't work, and pointing out that he could have learned that from Ayres is a valid point.

By RADICAL from Wright...
1. He COULD believe some, or all of what Wright believes, and just not showing it, and distancing himself for politcal gain
2. In his own book, Obama makes the statement "a white man's greed runs a world in need". Where did he learn that asanine and racist statement?

I don't his assocations are all we should focus on, nor do I think any side should "throw mud", but saying that the company you keep isn't relavent just isn't true.

 

[Brett Alex]

Can't you even come up with another word for "neadercon"? I'd think I'd hear Nazi or Neo Con at least once from you today. What does that even mean? I'm a Neanderthal b/c I have conservative values like low taxes, strong national defense, a free market economy, and personal responsiblity? Too bad for you that I'm more of a libertarian... Gay marriage, and other "moral" issues are things the government doesn't really have a role in, along with healthcare....
You're just another whiny liberal, probably still in college (or lives in his mother's basement), that likes to think of themselves as a modern day hippe. Your little avatar "I love everything you hate" just shows that your little more then someone that likes to go with what the "cool, alternative" crowd says then form your own opinions, and just like to tick people off for your own amusement. A mission you failed at by the way with me. I'm not angry, in fact, I'm having a good time. The free exchange of ideas that make the nations that visit the Escapist so great!
I love a good debate, and to bad I didn't find one with you.

Wow I don't always agree with Eggo but at least I do him the respect of reading his posts. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.73968?page=6#819475] Nothing much liberal about neo-conservatism, whatever it may be.

 

[Brockyman]

And about the "alleged" goings-on at rallys. You know as well as I do that there are stupid idiots out there that don't represent McCain, Republicans, or anyone. Also, personally, I think it is possible that Obama supporters (without the knowledge of the campaign) could go in a shout these horrible things just to de-rail support.

Oh I'm sorry, how foolish of me. The GOP has always been happy-happy-nice-nice, especially the people at rallies. And they never ever would be jingoistic or say "I hear he's an arab" to John McCain.

Get real. Get. F'n. Real. McCain created this monster and now you say "oh wait no he totally didn't it's a conspiracy, they never said any of that". Next you'll probably tell me the liberal media digitally spliced in those soundbites.

Apparently you were choking on your stupidity when i said

You know as well as I do that there are stupid idiots out there that don't represent McCain, Republicans, or anyone.

Which means "THERE ARE STUPID PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT MCCAIN THAT MAY SAY THINGS LIKE THAT BUT JOHN MCCAIN DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT". Sorry to yell, but I had to spell that out for you since you can't understand it in subtle context.

As far as "conspiracy theories"...Heck, Obama's former group is out registering the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys...in Nevada... along with Micky Mouse, and dead people, so a conspericy isn't too far fetched at this point. Could some of those ACORN wackos not go into a rally to cheat McCain?

The point is.. your wrong, your flat wrong. McCain didn't start any of this stuff.. McCain was talking about how great a guy Obama was the other day.

And I'm sick and freaking tired of the word "jingoism". I know Yahtzee said it, but get over it already. Jingoism ISN'T ALWAYS a BAD THING! It's ok to have a patriotic spirit, and to love your country. Heck, to someone like you, saying the Pledge or singing the national anthem would be "jingoistic" to you.

 

[Brockyman]

Can't you even come up with another word for "neadercon"? I'd think I'd hear Nazi or Neo Con at least once from you today. What does that even mean? I'm a Neanderthal b/c I have conservative values like low taxes, strong national defense, a free market economy, and personal responsiblity? Too bad for you that I'm more of a libertarian... Gay marriage, and other "moral" issues are things the government doesn't really have a role in, along with healthcare....
You're just another whiny liberal, probably still in college (or lives in his mother's basement), that likes to think of themselves as a modern day hippe. Your little avatar "I love everything you hate" just shows that your little more then someone that likes to go with what the "cool, alternative" crowd says then form your own opinions, and just like to tick people off for your own amusement. A mission you failed at by the way with me. I'm not angry, in fact, I'm having a good time. The free exchange of ideas that make the nations that visit the Escapist so great!
I love a good debate, and to bad I didn't find one with you.

Wow I don't always agree with Eggo but at least I do him the respect of reading his posts. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.73968?page=6#819475] Nothing much liberal about neo-conservatism, whatever it may be.

Huh? Not trying to be jerk, but I honestly don't get what you're trying to say. You can PM if you want to explain. Maybe I just need some sleep.

 

[stompy]

He does have Socialist views on a number of things, and if you look at the Soviet Union... you see how well it works.

Right, this anti-socialism bullshit has got to stop. The Soviet Union was not a representative of a socialist economy. It was closer to communist, and even then, Stalin ran that into the ground. In the end, the Soviet Union, despite its name and original intentions, ended up being a dictatorship in which the government took from people, and kept it for themselves.

In fact, I would like to know what you perceive as socialism. From my understanding of the economic policy, your comparison of socialism to the Soviet Union means you don't know what socialism truly is.

 

[TOGSolid]

Then may I ask why you're going for Mccain?
He's hardly a good candidate for the job for basically the same reasons Obama isn't. Neither of them have any clue on how to take this country in the direction it needs to go. They're both cut from the same politician cloth who serve only their parties and self-interests rather than the needs of this country.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Socialism is the government providing for the people. We are technically in a semi-socialist state as it stands and I don't want it to progress any farther than it has. Soviet union was not socialist, Nazi Germany was though.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Socialism is the government providing for the people. We are technically in a semi-socialist state as it stands and I don't want it to progress any farther than it has. Soviet union was not socialist, Nazi Germany was though.

Apart from the Nazi's, that didn't work out all that bad.

 

[Brett Alex]

Socialism is the government providing for the people. We are technically in a semi-socialist state as it stands and I don't want it to progress any farther than it has. Soviet union was not socialist, Nazi Germany was though.

I think you mean Fascist.

And are you really trying to draw parallels between modern-America and Nazi Germany? Or worse, Hitler and Barrack Obama.

Please don't be.

 

[Brockyman]

He does have Socialist views on a number of things, and if you look at the Soviet Union... you see how well it works.

Right, this anti-socialism bullshit has got to stop. The Soviet Union was not a representative of a socialist economy. It was closer to communist, and even then, Stalin ran that into the ground. In the end, the Soviet Union, despite its name and original intentions, ended up being a dictatorship in which the government took from people, and kept it for themselves.

In fact, I would like to know what you perceive as socialism. From my understanding of the economic policy, your comparison of socialism to the Soviet Union means you don't know what socialism truly is.

True.

I know exactly what a Socialist governement and ecomony is, and everything you said about the Soviet Union. I do that for simplicity b/c it's an internet forum, and you can only say so much.

Socialism is complicated, but it does share a lot in common with communism, in the fact that there is a collective ownership of the means of production and a redistribution of income.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved. (Wikipedia)

The definiation sounds good, but its infringes on a person's basic rights of life, liberty, property and the persuit of happiness. It's not the State's roll to PROVIDE happiness, but to protect your freedom to do so.

If a person works hard, the fruits of his labor are his own, and should be able to do with as he see's fit. Some taxation is needed to fund local and national government functions (police, fire, defense, small social saftey net, roads, ect). However, it's not right or fair for the State to use their police power to take away a person's property, only to give it to another to "equalize" their situation.

Basically, that's what socialism does. It violates a person's right to his own life and labor. I don't bash Socialism b/c its a code word, or a cliche. I bash it because its a horrible from of government and economics. The free market has its problems, but free compeitition, free exchange of ideas, and the desire to create a marketable good or service that people need, want, and desire is the best way to run your economic system.

"a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance." - Winston Churchill

 

[Brockyman]

It just frustrates me that Americans live with a mindset that things should be provided to them.
- The government or employeer must provide my health care
(Uh. No. Healthcare is not a "right" an employeers can provide benefits as they see fit, but a good healthcare plan attracts good employees)

- It's up to the government to create jobs and find me employement
(Jobs are created when a business is created or expands by offering products or services that people want, need, and desire... NOT b/c we want good paying jobs. Government interferences and taxes hurt this process)

- It's the government's role to feed and cloth my family, even if I'm making no effort to better my situation
(Helping someone in a bad situation is the right thing to do, but a person must make attempts to fend for themselves, and not really on the government or private charity)

- The government must regulate everything to keep a safe society.

This isn't want the Founder's wanted.

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. - Ronald Reagan

That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built. - Abraham Lincoln

Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Socialism is the government providing for the people. We are technically in a semi-socialist state as it stands and I don't want it to progress any farther than it has. Soviet union was not socialist, Nazi Germany was though.

I think you mean Fascist.

And are you really trying to draw parallels between modern-America and Nazi Germany? Or worse, Hitler and Barrack Obama.

Please don't be.

Not at all on both parts. Not drawing parallels, just giving an example and that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head (If there is another, please name it and don't be angry at me, it's 1 A.M. my brain has exited). And what I said is the text book definition of Socialism. Fascism involves socialism, but it's a way of thinking that puts the home country at the center of everything.

 

[Brett Alex]

Socialism is the government providing for the people. We are technically in a semi-socialist state as it stands and I don't want it to progress any farther than it has. Soviet union was not socialist, Nazi Germany was though.

I think you mean Fascist.

And are you really trying to draw parallels between modern-America and Nazi Germany? Or worse, Hitler and Barrack Obama.

Please don't be.

Not at all on both parts. Not drawing parallels, just giving an example and that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head (If there is another, please name it and don't be angry at me, it's 1 A.M. my brain has exited). And what I said is the text book definition of Socialism. Fascism involves socialism, but it's a way of thinking that puts the home country at the center of everything.

Oh thats good then, I really should have more faith in people. I see your point but I'd say that Nazi socialism isn't different to the kind that most people associate with communism.

 

[TOGSolid]

Godwin.

/thread

 

[crimson5pheonix]

It's different really only in the wording.