I don't believe that I have said other wise honestlyFischgopf said:You do understand that not all Trans people pass, right?kenu12345 said:I don't think I ever mentioned relationships. Generally there, this stuff is mentioned. Your initial post, at least as I interpretted it and I apologise if I misread it, seemed to go along the lines of 'It doesn't matter if you transitioned or whatever, I won't say you are that gender' Either way, even in your post there is alot of ambiguity. For instance, I have a friend who naturally has a hormone problem thus he looks like a female. Now this is assuming you are a decent human being and don't barge into people's pants or under their skirts to look at their genitals but how would you know then. By your logic, you could assume he was trans even though he's a dude and just be calling him a she for no good reason cause of some honestly insignificant reason. Same applies to trans people that are taking hormones, there comes a point where you don't know their sex and you are just assuming.Zenja said:If a guy gets an operation to be a girl, that guy is now a girl - that used to be a guy. However, to not disclose that information in a relationship is extremely fucked up. Gender reassignment is your partner's business as it could stem into multiple aspects of the relationship down the road. If some stranger on the sidewalk had a gender reassignment surgery, it is none of my business and I don't care. Whatever you have the parts of is what you are. But I shouldn't be asked to call someone with a penis a girl or someone with a vagina a man. If you are one of those people that have both, I could see the person choosing gender. However, most of those cases has 1 gender very noticeably more pronounced than the other.kenu12345 said:I ain't really in for discussion but these sort of posts always made me curious. After the transition and everything, how would you even know they are so that you can tell them they are really their pre transition sexZenja said:Wow, 4 pages. I am more in agreement with this guy's view.
There are only two genders and your biology determines it. If you want to change you biology then do so, however, don't expect me to play along with your make believe views.
If you are going MtF and you were androgynous to begin with, you'll probably pass. If you however have been through puberty it could be a different story, you might have too pronounced masculine facial features to really pass as a woman, at least not without major surgery I guess.
Mostly I think my post is unambiguous and pretty straight forward. However, if I mistake a guy for being a girl, because that is what they look like, I will apologize. However, if they get offended and act out over it, I may not be so polite. It isn't my responsibility to cater to everyone else's preconceptions just as it isn't theirs to cater to mine. The girl in the McDonalds restaurant comes to mind. Mistakes happen, and considering that the trans argument is that nature itself made a mistake, then you would think that trans people would be more understanding of someone mistaking their gender instead of getting so upset about it.kenu12345 said:I don't think I ever mentioned relationships. Generally there, this stuff is mentioned. Your initial post, at least as I interpreted it and I apologize if I misread it, seemed to go along the lines of 'It doesn't matter if you transitioned or whatever, I won't say you are that gender' Either way, even in your post there is alot of ambiguity. For instance, I have a friend who naturally has a hormone problem thus he looks like a female. Now this is assuming you are a decent human being and don't barge into people's pants or under their skirts to look at their genitals but how would you know then. By your logic, you could assume he was trans even though he's a dude and just be calling him a she for no good reason cause of some honestly insignificant reason. Same applies to trans people that are taking hormones, there comes a point where you don't know their sex and you are just assuming.
This is generally the thing I think most people should do honestly. No point to being offended whether you are against trans people are or are one. Just takes more effort and irritation to be offended but something. Generally how I feel is that it doesn't matter what someone called long as they ain't rude. It's why I've grown tired of these sorts of discussion cause most of the time it seems to come from a position of inherent out of your way disrespect like you would see on some youtube edgelord's channel. Though I do feel like you may be caricaturing trans people there a bit in the last bit of the first paragraph. Honestly if you are up for calling someone people whatever, I really don't see the issue honestlyZenja said:However, if I mistake a guy for being a girl, because that is what they look like, I will apologize. However, if they get offended and act out over it, I may not be so polite.
In our interaction, you made a claim first, in this post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.948749-Why-does-virtually-every-non-binary-gender-go-back-to-m-f#23946616]-- claiming that you could provide "thousands" of sources (that we're still waiting for), and claiming that "DNA determines your gender". That was before any post of mine in response to yours, so no, I didn't make a claim first.008Zulu said:I will show you my proof, if you show me yours. You made a claim first don't forget.
Journal of Applied Physiology said:"Accordingly, it is imperative that scientists and editors come to a consensus on these terms to alleviate any confusion in their usage. These words have specifically different etymologies and meanings. In the most basic sense, sex is biologically determined and gender is culturally determined."
American Psychological Association said:"The term "gender" is introduced for those characteristics and traits socioculturally considered appropriate to males and females. The rationale for this addition to the psychological vocabulary is that the term "sex" implies biological mechanisms."
American Psychiatric Association said:"Gender : the condition of being male, female, or neuter. In a human context, the distinction between gender and SEX reflects the usage of these terms: Sex usually refers to the biological aspects of maleness or femaleness, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female (i.e., masculinity or femininity.)"
And this is why you don't let liberalism go unchallenged.CaitSeith said:I don't know. It's a little difficult to say which ones are equivalent to male or female after the first two.
http://greyspaceconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Pronouns-HTWG.png
Other than that, no comments...
This whole "male but their brain is wired as a female" (or vice versa) concept makes no sense at all. The main driver of physical sexual differences are the amounts and ratios of hormones created and secreted into the body. Do you know what controls the secretion of hormones? The pituitary gland, which is in the base of the brain. If the trans person really had a brain that was wired to be the wrong sex, why would it still secrete the hormones of their biological sex?Zontar said:I do believe that there is a small minority of men who are born with their brains wired like a woman, and vice versa. If there is any evidence something beyond that exists, no one in academia has elected to reveal it to the rest of academia or the general public.
Because the rest of the brain ended up atypical. I don't agree with having to recognize this fluidic gender nonsense, but even I know why this is happening.Sight Unseen said:This whole "male but their brain is wired as a female" (or vice versa) concept makes no sense at all. The main driver of physical sexual differences are the amounts and ratios of hormones created and secreted into the body. Do you know what controls the secretion of hormones? The pituitary gland, which is in the base of the brain. If the trans person really had a brain that was wired to be the wrong sex, why would it still secrete the hormones of their biological sex?Zontar said:I do believe that there is a small minority of men who are born with their brains wired like a woman, and vice versa. If there is any evidence something beyond that exists, no one in academia has elected to reveal it to the rest of academia or the general public.
Yes, I had confused your post with the one above it. My bad.Silvanus said:In our interaction, you made a claim first
I would not discredit their existence, nor would I be so disrespectful as to call them freaks.bauke67 said:Even if all those anomalies are somehow caused by humans, that does not in any way discredit their existence. It does not force them into your binary system. Even if you want to label them "freaks", which would just be insulting to them, that still nets you a trinary system of male, female and freak. You have to admit, at least in principle, that there is a weird fuzzy middleground, even if you reject a full on gliding scale.
No worries, easy to do.008Zulu said:Yes, I had confused your post with the one above it. My bad.
These are all referring to chromosomes largely determining biological sex at birth, which wasn't in dispute.As for DNA determing your gender (the term I generally use to signify male or female, because some posters here think that sex is the physical act and not a relevant term for male or female), is the SRY protein. Which is a DNA binding protein, which is encoded by the SRY gene. The presence of which determines male sex. Referenced here [http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990Natur.348..448B].
Hmm yeah that sounds agreeable, but now it looks like we're not in disagreement anymore. The tree with offshoots is, I suppose, a reasonable approximation of reality. I guess the real question then becomes: how do we value/treat those branches? Are you sure you support this metafor, because it does imply that those branches can be called neither exactly male nor exactly female. Which means that you're just supporting a claim that nature is "mostly binary", which is arguably true, but doesn't it mean you concede the point?008Zulu said:I would not discredit their existence, nor would I be so disrespectful as to call them freaks.bauke67 said:Even if all those anomalies are somehow caused by humans, that does not in any way discredit their existence. It does not force them into your binary system. Even if you want to label them "freaks", which would just be insulting to them, that still nets you a trinary system of male, female and freak. You have to admit, at least in principle, that there is a weird fuzzy middleground, even if you reject a full on gliding scale.
Imagine it like a tree; Where Male and Female are at the base, and the multiple of variations branch off from it. We are a binary species, but there are divergents from the evolutionary norm.
Rates of suicide are still high because stigmatization is still high. And trans people who recently elect for things like GRS to change documentation are more visible to abuse. But apparently this thought doesn't enter the heads of commentators such as yourself on the situationn, who assume that it's because somehow it's bad medicine. After all, maybe people being treated like garbage makes them depressed enough to kill themselves?Delicious Anathema said:Transition is the best way to deal with it, which is why post op suicide rates are still high. [http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/transgender-regret-is-real-even-if-the-media-tell-you-otherwise/] Right. In my opinion, having therapy to accept one's gender as it is or treating hormone/chemical imbalance instead of resorting to genital mutilation seems like a more fitting treatment. But of course no one will do research that kind of procedure, because it's "transphobic".
Also, when pronoun policing happens, people are forcing someone to accept their warped reality where they are the gender they claim to be. And let's not get into the new invented pronouns for gender fluid, genderless and two spirited people.
There's a pretty large gap in your knowledge about brain biology, there.Sight Unseen said:This whole "male but their brain is wired as a female" (or vice versa) concept makes no sense at all. The main driver of physical sexual differences are the amounts and ratios of hormones created and secreted into the body. Do you know what controls the secretion of hormones? The pituitary gland, which is in the base of the brain. If the trans person really had a brain that was wired to be the wrong sex, why would it still secrete the hormones of their biological sex?
I gathered from your sources that you were looking at it from a psychological viewpoint, I was looking at it from a genetic viewpoint.Silvanus said:None of them refer to gender at all; one of the central points in each of my sources was that gender and sex are distinct, and do not always correlate.
We start out as binary, but there is the potential for variation. There's a million shades of green, but they all start out as yellow and blue. As for how we treat them, the answer is deceptively easy. We treat them as humans.bauke67 said:how do we value/treat those branches?