Why the "big boobs" "absurd female design" still exists?

[TehCookie]

Because people like big boobs? The complainers may be noisy, but that doesn't mean they're the majority.

I don't like them, but I'm a straight women. I don't avoid games over it unless it's really bad, but good gameplay can still redeem the game as well. If you hear me complaining about something it's a lack of manservice. Everyone likes eyecandy, I want some for me as well.

that seems fair, but can you describe exactly what it is you're after? more sensual males? insane muscles? perfect complexions? heroism? 'just being nice' cause I really don't know ( as a guy myself ) what it is women actually look for and what I can directly compare between the sexes, if anything.

basically what's the male equivalent of T+A curves and a nice smile?

do tell.

Every girl is different, and I'm fine with any pandering even if it's not to my taste. I hate to reuse examples all the time but Dante's lucifer scene and Solid Snakes ass are prime examples. Toned would be to closest thing to T&A, but people still like different things. Like how men like melons to DFC, girls like muscular to bishounen. For me Leon from RE4 has a great build and a nice tight shirt to show it off without it being in your face. Also some uniqueness, variety is the spice of life so have characters be more diverse than middle aged white dudes with short brown hair.

Girls also love personality but you'll just hear the same answers you stereotypically hear: smart, funny, charming, confident. As long as a character is written well and appealing there is no right personality. If you really don't know what kind of personality go watch a reverse harem anime since they cover all the standards.

Just speaking for me, I like my guys to be a non-cynical drunkards and don't sound like they've been eating gravel. If a female adventurer can wear makeup a male adventurer can be clean instead of covered in dirt.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I just got back from my local comic book store with a hardback full-colour copy of the manga, Highschool Of The Dead. Both the guys behind the counter joked that it was so popular that if they'd wanted to keep it in stock then they'd have to remove it from display.

I make absolutely no apologies for my taste, or lack thereof but I do think that a lot of the people who post about either being driven away by sexualised design are talking straight out of their asses.

If someone threatens not to buy a particular game then the chances are that with or without changes that particular game was likely never going to be on their shopping list anyway. And when someone else threatens only ever buy a particular game on sale because of some bullshit reason or another, I immediately think that all they've just done is openly admit that they like pretty much everyone else prefers to buy things on sale, unless it is particularly appealing to what they want in a video game. It's like openly declaring that you'll do exactly what most people will end up doing anyway. It's simply hilarious.

 

[Mobax]

Why do things with big boobs exist?

Because there are still straight men in the world. And a lot of them are immature. And a lot of them are smart, and they know they can make money by using boobs. Women also know this - it's why we show them off all the time.

Boobs make the world go around.

... Sorry, not in the mood for a sexism discussion today. We'll just go with "yada yada lowest common denominator, boys think boobs are magic hyuk hyuk, penis jokes, old boy's club" and so on.

As a female, I do wish women were portrayed more realistically in all media... then I see Chris Hemsworth and hope the world never changes. Unless it changes into him doing movies with nude scenes.

Everyone's a pig.

... I do put my money where my mouth is though, and only buy games that don't offend me. Best I can do when I've talked myself hoarse.

That is the crux of it. Lowest common denominator, what do the vast majority of straight men appreciate, a nice pair of breasts. But women appreciate a strong man too, and the male protagonists in many games are those archetypes. Sex sells, it's as simple as that. The fact the people complain is irrelevant to the publishers, in fact it's free advertising for their game.

If the gaming demographic contained a large number of horny gay teenage boys we'd see very different scantily clad characters. =p

 

[Psychobabble]

.

 

[Gronk]

Wow, if you don't believe women face barriers men don't in the gaming industry... wow. http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/women-use-twitter-expose-video-game-industry-sexism-1C7283842

I trust Kotaku's opinion on feminism about as much as I trust FOX News to report on Muslims.
The "sexism" in the gaming industry in my experience comes from women expecting better treatment than everyone else simply for being women and using sexism as an excuse. I've seen the Twitter wars, I've seen women attempt to maliciously ruin men's careers over baseless allegations of sexism or harassment, and I won't fall for the crocodile tears.
People like Anita Sarkeesian or Richards and the 'Donglegate' scandal prove that a significant number of women in the tech industry use allegations of sexism as a tool to get their way. Sarkeesian has of course been torn to shreds by the public and Richards was fired for her conduct. This doesn't demonstrate that the industry hates women, it demonstrates that 'everyone' hates a certain kind of person who attempts to capitalize on outrage for their own selfish purposes.

My hobby is not a medium for you, or anyone else, to push their political or social agenda, it has no place in escapism.

Anyone can succeed in the videogame industry, the success of indie titles proves that, having breasts or not has no place in a medium where success is determined by results.

Wow.. just .. wow. Congrats on being able to cram so much stupidity into so few words.

 

[Lieju]

But women appreciate a strong man too, and the male protagonists in many games are those archetypes. Sex sells, it's as simple as that.

In my experience, when ever women give a list of their favourite sexy video-game characters, there are a lot less Marcus Fenixes and Kratos'es and more Sephiroths and Alistairs. Which, granted, you can find in JRPG's.

I just got back from my local comic book store with a hardback full-colour copy of the manga, Highschool Of The Dead. Both the guys behind the counter joked that it was so popular that if they'd wanted to keep it in stock then they'd have to remove it from display.

I make absolutely no apologies for my taste, or lack thereof but I do think that a lot of the people who post about either being driven away by sexualised design are talking straight out of their asses.

If someone threatens not to buy a particular game then the chances are that with or without changes that particular game was likely never going to be on their shopping list anyway. And when someone else threatens only ever buy a particular game on sale because of some bullshit reason or another, I immediately think that all they've just done is openly admit that they like pretty much everyone else prefers to buy things on sale, unless it is particularly appealing to what they want in a video game. It's like openly declaring that you'll do exactly what most people will end up doing anyway. It's simply hilarious.

Whenever you buy a game (or anything) there will be several factors influencing your decision. Including the art-style. Why is this difficult to believe? If big boobs (or anything) can be a selling point to someone, they will be influencing someone's buying decision to the other direction.

Also, talking as a woman, seeing big breasts bounce around makes me uncomfortable because I know that hurts. There is a reason women wear sports-bras.
Imagine if men getting punched on the groin was considered sexy. Would you like seeing that in your games?

 

[Piorn]

I don't really care about "absurd design", nor have I actually played Dragon's Crown, but all too often, "the woman" is just another character next to "the elf" and "the dwarf", with the only defining features being tits.
Sure, I love tits in all shapes and sizes, they're the icing on the character cake. But that's it, you can't base an entire character around their tits.
Don't know if the actual game expands the character, but the marketing surely doesn't.

 

[MetalMagpie]

This site's forum sure has gotten ridiculous

Nah, it's always been like this. There's generally at least one "hot topic" getting a disproportionate number of threads (generally something "controversial"). We're lucky if it's at least tangentially related to video games.

We had a flood of circumcision threads not long ago, which was a bit weird. "Feminism" (and related subjects) come around on a pretty regular basis.

Oh, and watch out for the creepy threads asking for details on people's sex lives.

 

[CloudAtlas]

The whole "make your own game!" argument is wearing pretty thin on me the way it's thrown about without consideration of anything but the desire to shut the person it's thrown at up.

That's exactly how it is.

Didn't like Man of Steel? Go make your own Superman movie!
Didn't like the Mass Effect ending? Go make your own Mass Effect 3!
Don't like the prevalnce of military shooters? Go make your own shooter!
Don't like feature X of the PS4? Go make your own console!

Ever heard someone saying that? Me neither.

You can demand anything you want, and it's your goddamn right as (potential) customer to do so, but God forbid someone would like to see a little less bosom.

But you can still vote with your wallet, right? Right? Yes, I can, and yes, I do. But I still have the effing right to criticize what I don't like about some game, and to express my wishes for change, just like everyone else does. Everyone saying that I don't is nothing but a hypocrite.

 

[MetalMagpie]

The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.

Speaking as a woman, I still don't understand why sexy images of women (even massively exaggerated ones) are necessarily degrading or need to be removed. Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Personally see nothing wrong with it. Other than the Sorceress looking pretty damn hot, nothing about her is sexist. She handles her own just as well as the next guy. To complain about her lack of armor, considering she is a magic user, considering her opponents are ogres, dragons and demons is silly. To say it isn't practical for a magic user to wear heavy armor of some kind is to ignore how impractical it is to solo fight a dragon the size of a T-Rex or larger. The very force from such a creature would easily kill a person from one strike.

Complaining about Sorceress lack of armor and ignore the other front line fighters of Dwarf and Amazon is odd. Yes, fighter has armor...but he doesn't benefit much from it at all. Long story short, in most Fantasy based game any armor is decoration at best. In no way shape or form in a practical situation should a person believe metal armor will protect them from attacks from dragons and demons who cause tremors when they walk.

Let me give you some advice: The last thing defenders of jiggling bosoms & and revealing outfits should do is invoking realism. Also, you have some wrong conceptions about what people complain?

A mage not wearing armor? Totally fine. The boobs of this mage jiggling so much that they almost slap her face when she's running? There's a reason why sport bras exist. The sorceress would be in excruciating pain all the time, and, I would imagine, this constant strain on the tissue would lead to serious damage. No adventurer who is neither totally retarded nor extremely masochistic would wear such an outfit, ever.

You know, the skin-tight cat-suits of your Batwoman, Black Widow, or Aeon Flux-like characters might not be what actual persons in the same situations would choose to wear, but at least they keep everything in place.

Short story long, in most fantasy games armor would be actually useful. Maybe not against all enemies, but against most. You're never fighting only the prime evil himself. Besides, dragons and demons are not the only thing your everyday fantasy adventurer needs to worry about. There's a reason why Bear Grylls isn't running around naked. But that's not even the point. Fact is that many male characters in any such world feel the need to wear heavy armor, and the only reason for doing so is because it provides them significant benefits. Hence, female characters of the same profession would want to wear the same armor. Anything else would be internally inconsistent.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Game devs will adapt to marketing for women once its profitable enough to be worth it. That change will happen independantly from people bitching on forums.

Look at casual games on facebook for example. They know women are a large demographic there, and thus the games are made and marketed in a way that doesn't offend women.

 

[NoeL]

The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.

Speaking as a woman, I still don't understand why sexy images of women (even massively exaggerated ones) are necessarily degrading or need to be removed. Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.

For the most part I'm in agreement with you, and I know girls that like the big boobs as much as any guy does, but it becomes degrading when interesting, complex, competent female characters are reduced to T&A to push more copies. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against porn in games (or porn in general) so I don't have a problem with the DoA girls or the Sorceress or anything like that, it's more characters like Cortana for example. She's a smart, competent, loyal companion... and hey, you can fap to her too! Go on, she's naked! :S

To answer your question though:

Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

See here [http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=4475&content=4795].

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.

Who's talking about "banning"? You don't have the right to ban, but you most certainly have the right to complain and make your voice heard if you have a problem with people making your gender look silly. If you're fine with it, cool - no one's forcing you to be upset. But if not, you ARE allowed to say something about it.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.

But there's no more evidence that looking at sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent! I agree with you though, and get annoyed beside you if someone tries to promote those things.

 

[lapan]

For the most part I'm in agreement with you, and I know girls that like the big boobs as much as any guy does, but it becomes degrading when interesting, complex, competent female characters are reduced to T&A to push more copies. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against porn in games (or porn in general) so I don't have a problem with the DoA girls or the Sorceress or anything like that, it's more characters like Cortana for example. She's a smart, competent, loyal companion... and hey, you can fap to her too! Go on, she's naked! :S

You yourself point out many positive points about Cortana. How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?

Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.

And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.

 

[NoeL]

How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?

By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.

I disagree.

And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.

I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.

 

[I.Muir]

A)The obsession with giant boobs and wide thighs is a part of male reproductive instincts.
B)Men respond greatly to scantily clad women, more so than women to scantily clad men even.
C)Men are a larger part of the industry at the moment and no I don't think there is anything actually stopping women from joining IT fields other than lack of interest.
D)The gaming industry is especially slow to move with the times and stagnates quickly.
E)It sells.

There I explained it to you, now you can go about your lives.

 

[lapan]

How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?

By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.

I disagree.

And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.

I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.

So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?

 

[MetalMagpie]

To answer your question though:

Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

See here [http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=4475&content=4795].

That article is talking about fashion magazines (and the fashion industry in general) promoting a very thin body shape by using images of skinny models. The argument is that young women can end up believing that they need to match the figures of the models. It's important to note here that the body-shapes they're being told to aspire to really do exist. The body shape may be unachievable for most people, but those models manage it. The danger is when women think they should be able to manage it too.

What we're talking about here are video games (especially ones aimed predominantly at men) using images of drawn women who have exaggerated curves. I have not seen any evidence that cartoon images of women have the same affect as photos. The busty women in video games have obviously stylised and exaggerated figures. Whereas the fashion models are seen as being real.

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.

Who's talking about "banning"? You don't have the right to ban, but you most certainly have the right to complain and make your voice heard if you have a problem with people making your gender look silly. If you're fine with it, cool - no one's forcing you to be upset. But if not, you ARE allowed to say something about it.

You're certainly allowed to complain, and I'm allowed to say I disagree with you. I guess all I want to make clear is that I'm absolutely fine with such images of women existing. I don't take myself so seriously that I can't laugh at my own gender. Men and women are both wonderful and silly in their own ways.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.

But there's no more evidence that looking at sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent! I agree with you though, and get annoyed beside you if someone tries to promote those things.

There's no more evidence it causes harm, but there's plenty of evidence it upsets people. A lot. And it's against the law in many countries. (Which is a bit of a free-speech issue, but we'll leave that well alone.)

The general evidence seems to be that only a minority of people are upset by images of busty women. The Sun is the most popular daily newspaper in the UK, and it proudly includes a topless model on its third page.

 

[MetalMagpie]

How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?

By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.

I disagree.

And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.

I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.

So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?

Or totally covered up at all times. Loose, modest clothing. Maybe in some sort of dark colour...

I'm being silly.

But I do find it quite funny when a small minority of people manage somehow to become so liberal that they end up wrapping right round and agreeing with hard-line conservative Christians/Muslims. A woman with her tits out is a woman being degraded! Cover up your women!

 

[Mr F.]

How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?

By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.

I disagree.

And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.

I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.

So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?

The internet died and ate my post.

Its not that a sexual design automatically invalidates a good personality, but it can detract from one. It can distract one from a good character design. Its not that bigger than average breasts or skin catch attention so much you cannot enjoy a game, it is just that they can catch your attention briefly and therefore detract from the enjoyment of a game.

There is nothing wrong with sexy character design, but it has its place. That's it. Sometimes it massively detracts from tone, sometimes it is just massively distracting. Would Skyrim have been a better game if it had DoA style characters? Some people think so, go look at the Nexus and forget to filter out "Adult" mods from the top 25 list.

Using the Cortana example, was anything added to her character when she was made sexier? Was anything lost?

Personally, I found the first two series of a Game of Thrones, whilst incredibly well acted and based on stunning material (I have read the books), to contain way too much tits and ass. I found it distracting, I found it detracted from a good plot, I found it, at times, to be shoehorned in (Granted, its a while since I read the first books, but I was 14 and horny as fuck, I would have REMEMBERED if important scenes took place in a brothel complete with writhing lesbians.). I found the third series to be by far the best, the lack of soft-core pornography being one of the reasons I found it to be so much better. Was anything lost by toning down the tits? Was anything gained?

I think I have made my point. It is a matter of personal taste, some people will prefer giant tits in their games (As the other thread has proved), some people seem to actively dislike them (Roughly the same amount according to the other thread) and most people just do not care. I fall into the last camp, I really do not care, unless the art design of the female characters is distracting from the game at large and does not fit the tone, I really could not give a fuck.

EDIT:

I know this is a crazy idea, but just maybe these games are being made by human beings with their own tastes and preferances, and maybe they're making games they want to make and creating art they want to see, and these teams don't exist solely to please the spoiled fucking whims of entitled fucking babies that'll spit their damn dummy out and let the internet know how righteously offended they are whenever something exists in a game that wasn't made with their personal tastes in mind.

You know, I hate this idea that talking about issues within gaming makes one entitled. One is not entitled if one notices something they do not like. One is not being a whiny baby if one accepts that games do not exist in a vacuum.

You have, quite deliberately, insulted everyone who disagrees with you. For that you have been reported. You have added nothing whatsoever to the debate, bar a sweeping attack on those who are for whatever reasons arguing that perhaps giant breasts and ass are not always called for in gaming.

Art is not above criticism. Games are made to please an audience, the audience has the right to state that things within games are not to their taste. Deal with it.

Plus there are people like myself. I did not bring it into my response, but I have spent the last year writing essays on the media, on current culture and on society in general (Sociology/History double major. With a healthy scattering of Media and Cultural studies modules.). For people like myself, this sort of topic is our bread and butter. Hell, I will be writing my dissertation on something to do with gaming (Still thinking about it.)

and these teams don't exist solely to please the spoiled fucking whims of entitled fucking babies

Just to make this doubly clear, no, these teams exist to please the market. People like myself are part of that market. And we can say whatever we fucking please.