Wonder Woman and Justice League films are said to be disasters. Is this the end of the DCEU?

[Programmed_For_Damage]

I personally think they should forget about trying to go toe to toe with Marvel at the box office. While they continue to do this, when things even get a whiff of going pear-shaped the people at the head will keep pushing the panic button, forcing re-writes and expensive re-shoots, and this just tells the audience that they have no confidence in their own product. If they have no confidence in their films then why should we?

They need to start small and tell a proper story without leaving half of it on the cutting room floor. I saw the extended version of Suicide Squad and all that meant was more of Harley Quinn and the Joker talking. There was still holes you could drive a truck through. Also, this doesn't mean going back to the actually character origins story. Look at how Spiderman Homecoming is being structure; he's a guy in a world that already knows about him and accepts him as being a "superhero", and it's about how he tries to fit in with this world and what that actually means. I could see something like this working with Aquaman.

But using common sense this movie has to introduce Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg, and deal with the whole Justice League main plot and Return of Superman.

Basically I think it was a mistake that they abandon the 2 part plan for Justice League.

Precisely! However the bean-counters won't go for it because it requires long term stability over "quick bucks now". How long was Black Panther in Captain America: Civil War? Probably about 15 minutes tops. Yet now you can book me in to see the Black Panther movie when it comes out. That's how you build interest.

 

[twistedmic]

There was still holes you could drive a truck through.

Can you give some examples of these holes?

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

There was still holes you could drive a truck through.

Can you give some examples of these holes?

I haven't watched it in a couple of months so I'd have to re-watch it to refresh my memory and be specific. There are "short cuts" that stick more in my memory though. Like why did Deadshot when he found out that Flagg had been keeping daily letters from his daughter since the very beginning just turn around and be buddies with him? I would have wasted him in a second once my bomb was deactivated. Now I realise characters don't have to behave like me, but he didn't even vacillate over what to do to a guy that literally withheld correspondence from the most important person in Deadshot's life.

Also, what exactly was the machine that Enhantress created supposed to do? Was it to reduce civilization to the technological Stone Age, as some kind of ironic revenge for humanity forgetting the old gods? Why did it take so long to fire up? It didn't appear to be drawing energy from anything other than Enchantresses gyrations. It seems an awful convoluted.
Also, if Enchantress' only weakness is her heart, why the need for the bubble-head army? Human special forces were as useful as a wet towel at a tsunami against her brother, so it wasn't for protection. Was it for the Suicide Squad that she didn't even know were coming (unless she read Flagg's mind)? Wouldn't she have been better off stopping at nothing to retrieve her heart? Who knows how long she would have lasted without the protection of her brother (who can survive a battle with a Mayan god, but is deathly allergic to Semtex).

Don't get me wrong, I actually like the movie and find it entertaining. I just remember going "oh, come on" at times.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

There was still holes you could drive a truck through.

Can you give some examples of these holes?

Off the top of my head, the fact that Incubus is eventually killed by a demolition charge, which is an absurdly mundane piece of equipment. They could have solved the entire problem by dropping a bomb on Enchantress' head.

Then there's other stuff; what's the point of a Suicide Squad where only a couple of the members even have powers, why does Deadshot suddenly change his mind about being a heartless mercenary killer when it comes time to shoot Harley, who in their right mind would authorise the attempted coercion of a teleporting psychic witch-goddess, how the Joker drove a SWAT van through the wall of Harley's cell when she's imprisoned in the middle of a swamp [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Reve]...

 

[Hawki]

Off the top of my head, the fact that Incubus is eventually killed by a demolition charge, which is an absurdly mundane piece of equipment. They could have solved the entire problem by dropping a bomb on Enchantress' head.

It's a plot hole, but I can kind of wriggle up an explanation in that we see Incubus swatting A-10 Warthogs out of the sky,* and there's a lightning storm above Enchantress. Maybe an air attack was cost prohibitive and a ground assault was the only way?

I dunno. I like Suicide Squad, but I won't deny it has problems.

*Just like A-10s were downed in droves in Man of Steel. I mean, what, did an A-10 mow down Zack Snyder's brother or something? 0_0

 

[Kyrian007]

So...why couldn't he make a new one on Mars?

It was all about plot convenience. Snyder needed a punching bag for supes to facepunch through buildings. So rather than rationally contacting Kal-El (one of a few remaining members of a ENDANGERED SPECIES,) and convincing Kal to give him the codex by saying that new Krypton and Earth could benefit from a cooperative relationship as neighbors once they had terraformed Mars (which they could easily do if they had the ability to turn a PRISON into an FTL SHIP and then an WORLD ENGINE.) But nope, that wouldn't have led to any facepunching. So, YAAARRRR genocide away!

Basically he's as evil as the plot needed him to be for very stupid reasons.

Which is why the Richard Donner version was way better.

At least in Superman II, Zod wanted to kill Superman as revenge on Jor-El. "We will crush the son of our jailer!"

As corny as it sounds, kneel before Zod is much better than "I WILL FIND HIM!"

Ugh all these criticisms against Zod annoys me.

HE NEEDS A PLANET WITH LIFE, MARS IS LIFELESS.

A throwaway line to try and explain why he can't terraform any suitable planet, when he has the ability to reengineer a prison (something designed to specifically keep people inside from going anywhere) into a ship capable of faster than light travel (allowing those inside to travel across the galaxy.) And somehow LIFE is a necessary prerequisite? We are on the very babystep threshold of being able to terraform planets ourselves NOW (The Martian is... fairly well grounded.) On the other hand, we can't even really nail down how many centuries away from FTL travel we may be. Let alone how many centuries beyond that we would have to be to MacGuyver together an FTL out of the equivalent of prison toilet wine and tissue paper shoes.

Now, that's not really a big deal or my main issue with MoS. Its actually something I could totally forgive or over look... in a much better movie. But with stuff as bad as MoS its just another reason why its just unbearable.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So...why couldn't he make a new one on Mars?

It was all about plot convenience. Snyder needed a punching bag for supes to facepunch through buildings. So rather than rationally contacting Kal-El (one of a few remaining members of a ENDANGERED SPECIES,) and convincing Kal to give him the codex by saying that new Krypton and Earth could benefit from a cooperative relationship as neighbors once they had terraformed Mars (which they could easily do if they had the ability to turn a PRISON into an FTL SHIP and then an WORLD ENGINE.) But nope, that wouldn't have led to any facepunching. So, YAAARRRR genocide away!

Basically he's as evil as the plot needed him to be for very stupid reasons.

Which is why the Richard Donner version was way better.

At least in Superman II, Zod wanted to kill Superman as revenge on Jor-El. "We will crush the son of our jailer!"

As corny as it sounds, kneel before Zod is much better than "I WILL FIND HIM!"

Ugh all these criticisms against Zod annoys me.

HE NEEDS A PLANET WITH LIFE, MARS IS LIFELESS.

A throwaway line to try and explain why he can't terraform any suitable planet, when he has the ability to reengineer a prison (something designed to specifically keep people inside from going anywhere) into a ship capable of faster than light travel (allowing those inside to travel across the galaxy.) And somehow LIFE is a necessary prerequisite? We are on the very babystep threshold of being able to terraform planets ourselves NOW (The Martian is... fairly well grounded.) On the other hand, we can't even really nail down how many centuries away from FTL travel we may be. Let alone how many centuries beyond that we would have to be to MacGuyver together an FTL out of the equivalent of prison toilet wine and tissue paper shoes.

Now, that's not really a big deal or my main issue with MoS. Its actually something I could totally forgive or over look... in a much better movie. But with stuff as bad as MoS its just another reason why its just unbearable.

But what makes you think Zod won't want to conquer Earth after he Terraforms Mars?

I mean he still needs the Codex from Superman. And the thing is inside him so they have to lethally surgically remove it from Superman.

 

[Hawki]

A throwaway line to try and explain why he can't terraform any suitable planet, when he has the ability to reengineer a prison (something designed to specifically keep people inside from going anywhere) into a ship capable of faster than light travel (allowing those inside to travel across the galaxy.) And somehow LIFE is a necessary prerequisite? We are on the very babystep threshold of being able to terraform planets ourselves NOW (The Martian is... fairly well grounded.) On the other hand, we can't even really nail down how many centuries away from FTL travel we may be. Let alone how many centuries beyond that we would have to be to MacGuyver together an FTL out of the equivalent of prison toilet wine and tissue paper shoes.

-FTL and terraforming aren't related technologies.

-The Martian doesn't depict terraforming, only the ability to use Martian soil as a medium when combined with organic matter.

-Real-life projections of terraforming put the transformation as having to occur over centuries, if not millennia. It's a pipe dream to believe we're on the threshold of actual terraforming.

-Nothing in The Martian approaches the plenthora of issues colonizing Mars outside the ability to grow food.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I don't know. I mean, I have absolutely no doubts that Wonder Woman and Justice League will be atrocious movies and recognized as such but it doesn't seem like that's gonna stop DC. For better or for worse, they seem really determined to go through with this.

Man of Steel was legitimately one of the worst or at least of the least enjoyable movies I've ever seen. And I stand by that, it was just fucking irredeemable. Batman v Superman was actually slightly better but then... well, pretty much everything is. Suicide Squad was almost as bad as Man of Steel and had some of the worst dialogue in a Superhero movie since probably Batman and Robin. What I'm saying is, the DCU has had so many bad movies now that they're kinda past the point of no return. I mean, after three movies, two of which were horrible and one of which was just bad they're still commited enough to that idea to go through with at least two more. I imagine they'll go on even if those flop as well. Seems like that's their hill to die on.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I don't know. I mean, I have absolutely no doubts that Wonder Woman and Justice League will be atrocious movies and recognized as such but it doesn't seem like that's gonna stop DC. For better or for worse, they seem really determined to go through with this.

Man of Steel was legitimately one of the worst or at least of the least enjoyable movies I've ever seen. And I stand by that, it was just fucking irredeemable. Batman v Superman was actually slightly better but then... well, pretty much everything is. Suicide Squad was almost as bad as Man of Steel and had some of the worst dialogue in a Superhero movie since probably Batman and Robin. What I'm saying is, the DCU has had so many bad movies now that they're kinda past the point of no return. I mean, after three movies, two of which were horrible and one of which was just bad they're still commited enough to that idea to go through with at least two more. I imagine they'll go on even if those flop as well. Seems like that's their hill to die on.

I challenge your stance.

Man of Steel is not the worse movie ever.

Coming after things like Catwoman and Amazing Spiderman 2 and Electra its no where near that bad.

And I have seen Comic Books that are even worse than Man of Steel: Superman At Earth's End, Spiderman One More Day, Countdown, Act of God, Dark Knight Strikes Again, etc.

 

[DoPo]

I challenge your stance.

Man of Steel is not the worse movie ever.

It should be obvious that it isn't - The Room still exists, as does Manos: The Hands of Fate among others. Yet, the claim was for the movie bing among the worst that PsychedelicDiamond has seen, which I'm not entirely sure you can challenge unless you know exactly what the other movies watched were and how exactly they were subjectively rated.

So, can go "Ha! I know you definitely liked it more than A, B and C and on the same level as X, Y and Z, therefore you are lying"? If not, I don't think why are you disagreeing with the statement.

 

[WindKnight]

The problem is their execs refuse to stop meddling with their creative talent. The execs don't care how good the films are so long as they make money, and since consumers keep paying to see their flops they have no incentive to stop meddling and ruining their films.

To be fair their meddling so far seems to be taking bad ingredients and smearing literal crap all over them - the interference has definitely made things worse, but what was there before wasn't really good.

 

[Kyrian007]

But what makes you think Zod won't want to conquer Earth after he Terraforms Mars?

I mean he still needs the Codex from Superman. And the thing is inside him so they have to lethally surgically remove it from Superman.

I don't think that way. The question is why WOULD he? Any rational attempt to maximize the chances of his species survival would involve avoiding conflict or war. And why not just ask Kal for the codex? Without holding anything hostage. How does Zod know that Clark won't hand it over or won't negotiate in good faith for it? Why is evil his first option when the obviously better and easier and less dangerous path is the less evil way? Even if you plan to conquer Earth eventually, why not secure the codex while pretending friendship and cooperation with earth. Even sneaky evil is a better bet than "YAAARRRRRR, Ima going a murderin" They made Zod out to be totally irrational, and why would any of the others follow an irrational leader?

 

[Kyrian007]

A throwaway line to try and explain why he can't terraform any suitable planet, when he has the ability to reengineer a prison (something designed to specifically keep people inside from going anywhere) into a ship capable of faster than light travel (allowing those inside to travel across the galaxy.) And somehow LIFE is a necessary prerequisite? We are on the very babystep threshold of being able to terraform planets ourselves NOW (The Martian is... fairly well grounded.) On the other hand, we can't even really nail down how many centuries away from FTL travel we may be. Let alone how many centuries beyond that we would have to be to MacGuyver together an FTL out of the equivalent of prison toilet wine and tissue paper shoes.

-FTL and terraforming aren't related technologies.

-The Martian doesn't depict terraforming, only the ability to use Martian soil as a medium when combined with organic matter.

-Real-life projections of terraforming put the transformation as having to occur over centuries, if not millennia. It's a pipe dream to believe we're on the threshold of actual terraforming.

-Nothing in The Martian approaches the plenthora of issues colonizing Mars outside the ability to grow food.

Yes, that's why I said babysteps... where are our FTL babysteps? That's the comparison I'm making, valid without being related technologies. I'm comparing our progress in 2 (yes different) technologies.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I am just getting tired of Lex Luthor in general. Always being typecasted as Superman's villain.

I want a villain that matches Supermanm's power level not intellectual level.

Superman needs a Super villain not a mortal one.

Nah. Whenever supes gets a villain as powerful as he is it just turns into a punching contest. The best superman villains are ones that take advantage of his moral weaknesses because that's the one place he isn't invulnerable. Anything that requires him to use his powers in a creative fashion

This issue is, the both of you are correct and that's the reason why Hollywood is having such a bad time with knowing what to do with Superman. Along with one other problem.

First off, Superman is universal. I don't mean that his appeal is Universal, I mean that the man can zip through Galaxies in a few hours time. The fact that a man that powerful always sticks to Metropolis is so very silly. It's his home. It's his base of operation, sure. But when you can get to a problem area in what seems like a literal second anywhere in the world, keeping it confided to Metropolis seems so confining.

This also rings true with his villains. People do forget that Superman is far smarter than most people in the universe. His brain doesn't actually deteriorate, so he actually just gets smarter. But the good news is, there's plenty of Villains in Superman's rogue gallery that is probably smarter than him.

Brainiac, Doomsday, Zod, Gog, Mongul, Darkseid...Hell, Vandal Savage even. These are all great choices. You can easily show a Metropolis that is at peace under Superman's watch and then have one of these villains mess it up.

Or hell, follow the story. Have Mongul kidnap Superman and force him to fight beings stronger than him, saying that if he fails any of the matches, the Earth will be destroyed. Something that will push him to break the mental barriers he set up which would kill these others who are probably fighting for the same reason as he's forced to.

Or Brainiac using its own weapons (including STARS tech) to attempt to destroy the earth as a Distraction for Superman as Brainiac beings to cypher all of Earth's knowledge before blowing it up.

This leads to Superman in media's other problem. It's not that he's too boring. It's that no one can get over his move set. He's a God who decides normal life is more important than control. He's an unwilling hero (as he just wants a plain life) that will never hesitate to put his life on the line for others. He's also a man who sometimes thinks he's a monster due to his own abilities. There's such a wide variety of things about Clark/Supes that people ignore because he's just too powerful.

Then show it. Batman got interesting when writers stopped making him a normal good guy who just did things because he was virtuous. The thing that most people like about Batman now is that he's two steps away from being as twisted as the Joker, and he's using his fantastic will to keep that from happening... Even though it's wanning. There's plenty of that for Superman. Yet no one explores it because his powers are just so distracting for people who want to show the spectacle versus showing the man behind the powers.

 

[Basement Cat]

I'm wary of the "DC movies are gonna suck!" train.

Suicide Squad was utterly lambasted by the critics but the public--which includes quite a few posters here, clearly--actually had the audacity to enjoy it. By non-Marvel standards Suicide Squad was a successful movie.

Wonder Woman is a movie I've heard some good rumors about. I've not heard anything about Justice League.

I think that people are so accustomed to condemning DC movies, even when they make profits, that the ghost of Hitchcock could descend from heaven and proclaim the next two movies to be divinely inspired masterpieces and the general fan-public would snarl with defiance. ^_^

Given that each individual movie is being directed by entirely different directors it seems like some people want the next movies to be disasters in order to vindicate their own point of view. Kinda like how some Democrats want Trump's presidency to be a catastrophic failure.

 

[happyninja42]

I'm wary of the "DC movies are gonna suck!" train.

Suicide Squad was utterly lambasted by the critics but the public--which includes quite a few posters here, clearly--actually had the audacity to enjoy it. By non-Marvel standards Suicide Squad was a successful movie.

Wonder Woman is a movie I've heard some good rumors about. I've not heard anything about Justice League.

I think that people are so accustomed to condemning DC movies, even when they make profits, that the ghost of Hitchcock could descend from heaven and proclaim the next two movies to be divinely inspired masterpieces and the general fan-public would snarl with defiance. ^_^

Given that each individual movie is being directed by entirely different directors it seems like some people want the next movies to be disasters in order to vindicate their own point of view. Kinda like how some Democrats want Trump's presidency to be a catastrophic failure.

I think we should just wait until the movies actually fucking come out before we start working on their obituaries, and the franchise as a whole.

 

[twistedmic]

Off the top of my head, the fact that Incubus is eventually killed by a demolition charge, which is an absurdly mundane piece of equipment. They could have solved the entire problem by dropping a bomb on Enchantress' head.

Nothing in the movie indicates that Incubus is invulnerable to heavy explosives and shaped charges, so the bomb killing him is not a plot hole. Incubus was, however, shown destroying aircraft left, right and center with near contemptuous ease. Plus Enchantress was only really vulnerable once her heart was removed.

Then there's other stuff; what's the point of a Suicide Squad where only a couple of the members even have powers,

The squad was formed to be a disposable black ops team that could deflect blame from the US government if things went bad, thry all didn't have to have powers. Plus they all had unique and specialized skill sets that would come in handy for dirty work.

why does Deadshot suddenly change his mind about being a heartless mercenary killer when it comes time to shoot Harley

Deadshot was not totally evil, shown when he allowed himself to be arrested rather than shooting Batman through the eye. And El Diablo stated in the movie that Deadshot doesn't kill women or children. Plus the movie showed the Deadshot clearly felt sympathy (or a close approximation) for Harley.

who in their right mind would authorise the attempted coercion of a teleporting psychic witch-goddess,

Real life history is littered with astoundingly stupid and poorly thought out decisions carried out by everyone from top military and political officials down to school crossing guards and lifeguards.

how the Joker drove a SWAT van through the wall of Harley's cell when she's imprisoned in the middle of a swamp [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Reve]...

The movie doesn't show Joker driving a SWAT van through anything. It shows a hole being blown through Harley's cell (achievable through SWAT breaching charges, I assume) and a team in SWAT gear charging in and gunning down all of the guards in the cell before Joker strolls in, wearing customized SWAT gear, to get Harley out.
The movie showed that Joker had tons of cash along with very skilled and loyal people working for him and an ability to plan out coordinated attacks.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

I think that people are so accustomed to condemning DC movies, even when they make profits

Well I guess Transfromers and Twilight are fucking Citizen Kane by that logic.

Just because a movie makes money doesn't mean it's good.

 

[Basement Cat]

I think that people are so accustomed to condemning DC movies, even when they make profits

Well I guess Transfromers and Twilight are fucking Citizen Kane by that logic.

Just because a movie makes money doesn't mean it's good.

Obviously millions of others around the globe don't agree with you on that score.

Especially about the Twilight series. Hoo-boy that's one where countless girls definitely don't agree with you. Maybe it's a young girl thing. <_<