Would Americans play a game in which the United States is the bad guy?

backster

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I as an American would play a game that we are the bad guys as the important thing is that the game is for fun, whether I am fighting gangs of German soldiers or American Soldiers or even Canadian Soldiers ( They are the best as no one has ever seen or heard a special forces like Canadian soldier!) Honestly I wish we had more games that were World Friendly and allowed for the enemy to be anyone.
 

Dizchu

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Many of the examples people have brought up involve Americans being the bad guys but also Americans being the good guys. Americans have an easy time getting into a story where a corrupt government has to be overthrown by the people or some clandestine American organisation must be stopped from taking over the world, but if you bring up colonialism, excessive military force, police brutality and so on, people get a lot less comfortable. Because then you're criticising the country as a whole and what it stands for rather than some spooky government that wants to manipulate its own people.
 

crypticracer

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America is quite diverse. With nazis your just shooting white dudes, with terrorists your just shooting brown dudes.

Any present day or near future setting would need to play up the white evangelical angle. Maybe a world where Trump wins and ousts all minorities, women, basically non-straight white dudes, from the military. Then you'd only need shoot white dudes and you'd have a military almost half it's actual size, making it less a ridiculous fight.

Would American's play it? That's hard to say. If your character is a rebel american themselves, then yeah, it could be the next COD, people don't really care (or know?) what's happening in the single player stories. If you play as someone of another nationality? I mean people may as it's an interesting experiment, it could be cool. But if it's not a white person, there is a good chance most people would consider it in bad taste. Whether it is or isn't.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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The real question is "Would Americans play a game in which USA is the bad guy ... and the good guy is a foreigner?"
 

Dizchu

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Allspice said:
If someone has something positive to say about us, it always takes me by complete surprise because it happens so rarely. I admit it gets under my skin sometimes...no one likes to be told they are essentially worthless purely because of where they live over and over.
Ehh, I think you're picking and choosing what counts as "positive". The USA has a massive tourism industry and people from all over the world idealise the "American" way of life, at least in small chunks. The excesses of American culture are considered guilty pleasures by a lot of people, there's a certain excitement that comes with going into a massive supermarket with big (American) brands everywhere, eating supersized portions of food, as well as experiencing distinctly American things like Hollywood blockbusters.

From what I can tell all of this is taken for granted, by both Americans and outsiders. Outsiders are quick to criticise the USA for its hypercapitalism and corporatism but they're still using Windows and ordering Domino's Pizza. But those inside the USA, with all these massive brands being American exports, often feel like they're the center of the universe. I actually had an argument with someone on this forum (who was less than friendly) who got extremely upset when I pointed out that the World Wide Web wasn't invented by an American (and neither was the television while we're at it). Many Americans have a sense of self-importance and arrogance that comes across as unusual to many others, especially the British who are popularly considered self-deprecating. When it comes to people who have been on the receiving end of the USA's military endeavours this cynicism can turn into outright bitterness.

Of course, #notallamericans.
 

Hypertion

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something of like 90% of Americans with required funds/time/equipment. america is a major "consumer" of games reguardless of how good or bad they (or they are depicted in) a game is they will still play it...

thats all you really need to know..

as for "outrage" well you get outrage against pokemon for being satanic from the always vocal minority here so that would be quite literally nothing new. Honestly your typical american is really open to even extreme satire.... as evidenced by some of our most long running TV shows.
 

TotalerKrieger

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The only time I've seen a narrative driven campaign in which the regular US military (i.e. not a rogue faction) was featured as "the enemy" was in Vietcong 2. It had a main campaign involving an American GI protagonist followed by slightly shorter campaign featuring a NVA protagonist. It was actually pretty satisfying to get a sense of both sides of the conflict within a single game. The US campaign sort of focused on themes and dialogue related to the Truman doctrine, along with a sort of "ours is not to reason why" motivation for the protagonist. On the other hand, the NVA campaign had "liberation from a foreign aggressor" and personal revenge as its main themes.
 

mduncan50

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Well the whole Fallout mythology is pretty much predicated on the results of an evil US. Plus the remnants of the US government are the series antagonists The Enclave.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Floppertje said:
The division? Kind of? I mean... government operatives that can pretty much do whatever the hell they want and apparently only answer to the president, all the while shooting looters who are in most cases just standing around. Due process was apparently the first victim of that virus...
Another way to look at it is the division is one of those few games where the American people are then enemy not just the American government.* It's been mentioned before in this thread, but when America is the bad guy it is often a form of bad government. Now that I think about it, it's kind of uncommon to have an American bad guy who isn't part of the government, or playing a government role. (If anyone can think of one?)


*When looked at from the outside, the division paints a rather scary government picture, but inside of it's own story your secret government kill squad is on the side of good and all the enemies get built up as the worst kind of people.
 

irish286

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Dizchu said:
I pointed out that the World Wide Web wasn't invented by an American (and neither was the television while we're at it).
Umm... they were? TCP protocols that allowed the world wide web to exist were developed by Americans. And the first successful television was developed by Philo Farnsworth.
 

Syzygy23

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Li Mu said:
Having just seen an article on the front page for the game 'All Walls Must Fall', I read the description and thought, "Ugh, yet another 'Murkia & Friends vs Soviet Nazis' game."

Game after game after game, we are presented with the same pattern. America and sometimes Britain are the good guys. Russia, Nazi Germany, Future Zombie Nazi Germany or vague Arab nation are the evil bad guys.

Even games developed by non-US devs stick to this formula. Occasionally we might see China as the naughty country, but do we ever see the United States as a villain? Do we ever see Britain or non-German Europe as the enemy?

One could even see this as a subtle propgation of the 'Us vs Them' idea. Propaganda for the young, to instill the idea that we are the good guys and the rest of the world (especially people with dark skin) are evil.

Now, I don't want to get too much into racial politics in games (you guys can get into that if you want).
What I want to know is whether anyone from one of the 'good guy' countries buy a game if you knew that you were the villains?
I'm a Brit and I would love to play a game were we had to stop the evil American war machine from invading Canada. Or perhaps play as the French, combatting British/Danish aggression as they invade Paris in an attempt to steal the French supply of croissants.

But perhaps I'm in the minority here. Perhaps devs are too scared to portray the United States or it's BFFs as bad guys because the 'Western' gaming public couldn't stomach it. Would any of you Americans play a game in which you are the evil ones and need to be stopped?

Also, to any German or Russian gamers here. Do you get tired of your country always being portayed as evil in games?
Hrmmmm, closest I can think would be Helldivers, maybe? All th echaracters and the citizens/government of super earth use "Diplomacy" and "Liberty" and "Freedom" and "Democracy" to mean "Kill everything not us and take their shit".
 

Li Mu

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Dango said:
Li Mu said:
I'm a Brit
Anytime a British person complains about American imperialism or talks about American elitism I reel in pain at the irony of it.

But yeah, as people have pointed out, America being the bad guy isn't exactly a new concept. Metal Gear's been doing it for a while, and how well do those games sell?
Though, as an American, I get annoyed at games like Uncharted that are the least culturally educated games in existence, where someone's entire personality comes down to their accent. It doesn't help the stereotype that all Americans know nothing about foreign culture, which depending on who you talk can be somewhat true.
I'm not sure where I was talking about US imperialism, but feel free to point out the exact phrase I used and then I can agree or disagree with your point.

However...
To use Star Wars as an analogy; The British Empire was The Galactic Empire. We were a bunch of dicks who blew up entire planets. Then we collapsed and were replaced by the The First Order (The United States) who are a bunch of dicks who blow up entire planets. Same tactics, same hypocrisies and even the same language! We had better uniforms, you have better Tie Fighters.
 

Dizchu

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irish286 said:
Dizchu said:
I pointed out that the World Wide Web wasn't invented by an American (and neither was the television while we're at it).
Umm... they were? TCP protocols that allowed the world wide web to exist were developed by Americans. And the first successful television was developed by Philo Farnsworth.
TCP protocols =/= the world wide web.

Also why are you so quick to attribute the success of the WWW to US government research yet also attribute the success of television to a later (US) innovator despite working on a foundation made by European inventors?

Dango said:
Anytime a British person complains about American imperialism or talks about American elitism I reel in pain at the irony of it.
If anything the history of the British empire gives us first-hand experience with the dangers of excessive military interventionism.

People in the USA used to burn witches, does that mean it's wrong for the USA nowadays to call out theocratic societies that still do this?
 

Dango

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Li Mu said:
I've seen of a lot of Brits/British Media treat America as such an Imperialistic nation, your rhetoric reminded me of that. The irony of calling Americans bullies is lost upon most Western European nations. While I would not dispute the colossal fuck ups of America on the world stage, comparing them to the historical impact of Frace, Great Britain, Spain, etc. is ridiculous. America has fucked up, but its fuck ups pale in comparison to the Imperial machinations of past empires, and Britain is arguably one of the worst offenders.
 

Li Mu

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Dango said:
Li Mu said:
I've seen of a lot of Brits/British Media treat America as such an Imperialistic nation, your rhetoric reminded me of that. The irony of calling Americans bullies is lost upon most Western European nations. While I would not dispute the colossal fuck ups of America on the world stage, comparing them to the historical impact of Frace, Great Britain, Spain, etc. is ridiculous. America has fucked up, but its fuck ups pale in comparison to the Imperial machinations of past empires, and Britain is arguably one of the worst offenders.
That's cool and everything. But when did I say any of this? You were implying that I stated as such in my OP.
 

Floppertje

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nomotog said:
Floppertje said:
The division? Kind of? I mean... government operatives that can pretty much do whatever the hell they want and apparently only answer to the president, all the while shooting looters who are in most cases just standing around. Due process was apparently the first victim of that virus...
Another way to look at it is the division is one of those few games where the American people are then enemy not just the American government.* It's been mentioned before in this thread, but when America is the bad guy it is often a form of bad government. Now that I think about it, it's kind of uncommon to have an American bad guy who isn't part of the government, or playing a government role. (If anyone can think of one?)


*When looked at from the outside, the division paints a rather scary government picture, but inside of it's own story your secret government kill squad is on the side of good and all the enemies get built up as the worst kind of people.
Well... either the division are the bad guys, the looters are the bad guys or EVERYONE is the bad guy. So yeah, definitely Americans are the bad guys in that game. You are right though, though perhaps that is because games are usually about some kind of conflict, and since the government has a monopoly on violence... It's a harder sell that regular civilians would take up arms for something other than their own survival. which, incidentally, is what they did in the Division. It's not really that the division itself is painted as being evil, but it does paint a very disturbing picture of what the designers apparently think is OK where governemnt use of power is concerned...
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Floppertje said:
nomotog said:
Floppertje said:
The division? Kind of? I mean... government operatives that can pretty much do whatever the hell they want and apparently only answer to the president, all the while shooting looters who are in most cases just standing around. Due process was apparently the first victim of that virus...
Another way to look at it is the division is one of those few games where the American people are then enemy not just the American government.* It's been mentioned before in this thread, but when America is the bad guy it is often a form of bad government. Now that I think about it, it's kind of uncommon to have an American bad guy who isn't part of the government, or playing a government role. (If anyone can think of one?)


*When looked at from the outside, the division paints a rather scary government picture, but inside of it's own story your secret government kill squad is on the side of good and all the enemies get built up as the worst kind of people.
Well... either the division are the bad guys, the looters are the bad guys or EVERYONE is the bad guy. So yeah, definitely Americans are the bad guys in that game. You are right though, though perhaps that is because games are usually about some kind of conflict, and since the government has a monopoly on violence... It's a harder sell that regular civilians would take up arms for something other than their own survival. which, incidentally, is what they did in the Division. It's not really that the division itself is painted as being evil, but it does paint a very disturbing picture of what the designers apparently think is OK where governemnt use of power is concerned...
It's a very interesting topic. We could talk for days about it. One of the nutty elements about the division is that is wasn't made by Americans. (I kind of doubt Americans would make the game the way they did. If Americans made the game I bet you the roles would be reversed.) It kind of makes sense that the game comes in part from Europe because well the USA is kind of over our terrorism fear, and is just building inside of Europe.

I think a part of the reason it's often the American government that is the enemy is because Americans have a cultural need to topple bad governments. (We can't do it in real life so we do it in story.) Your still pandering to the USA when the USA is the bad guy.