Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

[Abriael]

Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

In a world were Bioware can make me empathise so deeply with Thane or the crushing paranoia of GSC gameworld's zone can creep so subtly into my head the disconnected, overbown, melodramatic, colour-vomit of games like FF13 seem so very outmoded.

God forbid someone actually loving BOTH final fantasy XIII AND Mass Effect 2. What an outlandish theory!

You know, appreciating a genre doesn't autimatically mean having to hate the other, as much as some people here seem to think that they need to be MARRIED to one cultural approach to gaming and one only.

of course insulting everyone that happens to think differently from you ("japanophile fantards"? Just lol, grow up, please) reeeeeeally adds credibility to your argument,

Reeeeeally.

 

[feeqmatic]

Ahh Yahtzee. Half the fun of anything he does is watching the reaction of the fanboys. You can argue your point all you like the fact your putting in all this effort to defend a gods damn video game makes you a fanboy, or girl, gotta stay PC and such.

Actually the other half of the fun is seeing the reaction of HIS fanboys to the ones that dare criticize his rants. You know, you can argue your point all you like, but the fact that you're putting all this effort to defend a pseudo-journalist makes you a fanboy, or girl. Gotta stay PC and such

PS: Don't follow too closely the example of your Idol. Punctuation is important

Call me a yahtzee fanboy (cause i am a huge fan) But ive never cared about yahtzee's opinions on games as much as i do his ability to make good points about gaming in general while making me crack up laughing.

That said I have been a JRPG fan since being formally introduced to the genre with FFX in college. FFX/12 Tales Vesperia, Lost Planet, Blue dragon etc i have played the "best" of JRPGs in this gen and loved them despite (gasp!) not having Yahtzee's approval.

When i bought played and subsequently traded in FF13 over the course of 72 hours the first thing I thought was "God I hope Yahtzee rips this game apart" cause it would be the best way to have my frustrations about such disappointingly bad game. I wont go as far as to say that no one can have fun "playing" it. But it takes a true fan of FF if not a crazy/uber nerd beyond my comprehension to really like this game. The flaws in this game are insane

-The incredibly linear/repetative gameplay (yes i know that most games are linear in reality but few rpgs literaly set you on straight line corridors for 20 hours non stop)

-The unoriginal/cliche/annoying characters

-The lack of gameplay depth,control,variety

-The story that requires you to read backlogs in order to understand it (I vividly remember searching through trying to figure what the hell a Fal'C was)

Regardless of opinions of yahtzee as viable source for game criticism, you (and none of the other anti yahtzee trolls for that matter) have not actually pointed out any valid point that conflicts with his synopsis (hence the troll accusation). The game sucked somethin awful and made me go back to dragon age to get my RPG fix.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

19, when she was basically dropped into Cryostasis.
Long story.

Haha yes! I love this. Best use of subtle (possibly unintentional) humor in the thread.

It is a LONG story. I find that people who refuse to play through a game (or really anything in life) and judge it on it's own merits tend to label the fans of said game as "fanboys" without actually thinking... "wow... some people actually enjoy this. This is fun to some people," and leave it at that. You can draw analogies that Final Fantasy XIII is like a hand on a stove, or a needle in the leg... but to the people who say "It gets better," they didn't hate it at first and then not hate it as much later. They probably liked it at first and then it got better later. I liked it fine at first... it grabbed me far more than Final Fantasy VIII & X ever did... and yes, it's getting better. There are quite a number of flaws and while I don't advocate postmortem developer chats as justifications for bad game design, the dev's at Squeenix thought the game would have been too hard and inaccessible to open up a lot of the battle mechanics that I feel are too tied down (being able to position your character, etc.). So... sad, but whatever... it's still fun.

Uhg its not better than 6,9 or 7 they were fun and had a story that was not incoherent as much as cheap, FF8,X,12 and 13 is not only cheap but incoherent..... sure FF8,X and even 12 has some high points in their stories well FF8 mostly. When the game play goes to pot any flaw in the story or characters is that much worse. FF13 is on the same scale as FFX2 its not a real FF game...more a throw together quicky.... even japan is not that enamored with it an that says something right their.....

Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

In a world were Bioware can make me empathise so deeply with Thane or the crushing paranoia of GSC gameworld's zone can creep so subtly into my head the disconnected, overbown, melodramatic, colour-vomit of games like FF13 seem so very outmoded.

God forbid someone actually loving BOTH final fantasy XIII AND Mass Effect 2. What an outlandish theory!

You know, appreciating a genre doesn't autimatically mean having to hate the other, as much as some people here seem to think that they need to be MARRIED to one cultural approach to gaming and one only.

of course insulting everyone that happens to think differently from you ("japanophile fantards"? Just lol, grow up, please) reeeeeeally adds credibility to your argument,

Reeeeeally.

I am not afraid to say if you like and buy watered down,shallow "popy" games you are helping the industry water down content and sell less of it for more money.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Hearing he liked Chrono Trigger (until boss fights started wearing) was a bit of a surprise.

If gameplay is enough to beat out his distaste of story, I'm almost curious as to what he'd think of Tales of the Abyss.

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

Isn´t "Beat it to the rush to give me money" simpsons joke?

Yes, it's "Be the first on your block to give me money!" I believe. I don't remember the episode or context, although I think it's Homer advertising the chance to catch chicken pox from Maggie.

EDIT: Now I remember- it's the story about Mozart (Bart), and after he dies, Mozart's father (Homer) runs grieving into the street and tries to sell death masks.

On topic: Starting a story in medias res is a good way to confuse me. I'd like a game that starts with your character... starting the story. This also goes for amnesia stories. I want to start out before anything game-plot-affecting occurs.

Yeah, I agree with this. It slightly bothered me about System Shock 2 (for about five minutes before The Many started speaking directly into my brain), and pretty much had me put Bioshock on hold for the best part of half a year before a certain major twist was "spoiled" for me and I decided I wanted to see how it would play out.

 

[acosn]

Yes, it sounds like you hyperbolically overstating things for controversy effect.
Or more because you're bent over so many people calling you on the fact that your "review" of FFXIII was misinformative on so many levels, that I'd define it more of a disjointed rant than anything else.

So be it, i will cave in and respond to your plea for attention.

*rubs eyes*

Am I reading this right? You're mad because he's doing his job? The man who's more or less demonstrated that there's maybe three or four games he's ever really liked?

I enjoyed and Enjoy Final Fantasy XIII, at the moment i'm savoring the open endedness that's chapter 11 fully, on my 117th hour of gameplay. And mind you, you're no one to say that I'm "wrong".

I never once felt, during the game, as I wasn't in control. Maybe because I wasn't so biased against it and I actually took the few minutes necessary to read the tutorials (you look like you didn't) and master the Paradigm Shift system, that is very complex, tactical, and requires a good deal of tactic and forward-thinking to use to it's full extent.

117 hours of game play? Didn't the game just come out a few weeks ago? I've played games in their entirety and not logged that much time after multiple beatings. The only game that's actually trumped this trend in my own gaming is one were that'd be expected after years of playing it.

Yet you want to accuse him of bias? Ok, shoot me. We're all biased. Trying to claim you're not means you're lying and for him to try to be unbiased would just lead to poor journalism.

And that's exactly it- tutorials. If you have to sit someone down and demonstrate something for them you've already done something wrong. The best games in the industry have very simple combat systems that you can effectively pick up and play without having to consult walls of text or simply be sat down and shown what to do. It's the difference between a game treating you like a child or treating you like you're there to experience something.

You say you're not in control? Really? What is "being in control" like? In games it normally means that the game puts a problem in front of you, and you have to solve such problem through input.
Even during the most linear parts, Final Fantasy XIII puts enemies in front of you, and you have to decide how to kill them. That's the very definition of being "in control".

FF13 is completely linear. They don't make any bones about it. There's no dungeon exploration, there's no pit stops in town, there's nothing really. It's more like it's a rail shooter except that it's in RPG format.

Yes, you can argue endlessly that "free roaming" RPG's merely let you have the illusion of choice, but even having the option to thinking you've done something trumps FF13. In all honesty if I wanted to play a game that treated me like I was reading a book or watching a movie I'd go do that.

And by the way, God forbid a game not forcing the gamer to mindlessly mash buttons randomly over and over! Tactical approach is the devil! I seriously wonder what you thought of Battle Chess...

I'd explain what "doing more with less" means but I have the feeling, and just from judging you in general I know it'd fall of deaf ears.

Funny, though, that you continue to rant about the alleged "fashion sense" of Final Fantasy characters, given that not counting Vanille's skirt, the characters in Final Fantasy XIII all wear some fairly normal and practical outfits. Makes me wonder if you paid actually paid attention during those meager 5 hours.
To be further honest, I've been wonder if you DID play those 5 hours, or simply mashed together a few misinformed opinions read somewhere.

Its more the fact that everyone has the style trends. Everyone has to have an extra belt. Everyone has to have hair style X, and wear shirt Y. There's a distinct Final Fantasy style out there. You typically see it creep up in games, but it effectively died in FF6. Now it's all pretty boys, brusque black men and "moee" women.

Seriously, do yourself a favor, Yatzhee, don't defend your "review" further. You're just digging yourself in deeper.
Your personal fanboys will like you anyway, though, don't worry. Now that you're feeling reassured and validated again you can move on to the next game you'll bash.

Isn't the person who's logged 117 hours already mocking someone (who's getting paid for what they do no less) on general literary hacker y and bias an effective case of the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Isn´t "Beat it to the rush to give me money" simpsons joke?

Yes, it's "Be the first on your block to give me money!" I believe. I don't remember the episode or context, although I think it's Homer advertising the chance to catch chicken pox from Maggie.

EDIT: Now I remember- it's the story about Mozart (Bart), and after he dies, Mozart's father (Homer) runs grieving into the street and tries to sell death masks.

On topic: Starting a story in medias res is a good way to confuse me. I'd like a game that starts with your character... starting the story. This also goes for amnesia stories. I want to start out before anything game-plot-affecting occurs.

Yeah, I agree with this. It slightly bothered me about System Shock 2 (for about five minutes before The Many started speaking directly into my brain), and pretty much had me put Bioshock on hold for the best part of half a year before a certain major twist was "spoiled" for me and I decided I wanted to see how it would play out.

Mmmmmm medias res dose not bother me as much as crappy plots,sub plots and poorly done stories.... whch of corse I can ignore if the game is fun to play and for it to be fun to play I need alot of customization and neat things to toy with the less fun and solid equipment,skills,combat system,ect the less fun I have have.....

 

[Dilapsor]

I get such a kick out the people who come here and are surprised when Yahtzee rips a game apart. That's his schtick/job/gimmick... whatever you want to call it, and that is why people come to watch the reviews. Just as it is Leonard Maltin's job to love every movie he sees and give them glorious reviews an no fewer than 4 stars, it is Yahtzee's job to hate every game he plays (even if in reality he liked it).

As for FFXIII, I cant shake the realization that the Anime/JRPG cultures have become caricatures of themselves. It seems like as a genre, anime will never break the mold it created with highly stylized stereotypes. As it is, you can't have an anime/JRPG without the following cast:

1: Self-loathing main character whose snarky sense of humor is about as frequent as the blue moon.

2: Hyper-masculine urban warrior

3: Giddy schoolgirl who is proficient in hacking, spells, or some other arcane art.

4: Tough-girl rogue with a chip on her shoulder and a mysterious past.

Now I know that not all anime has this lineup, but WAY more do than do not. And this isn't even a BAD lineup as they characters usually interact in complex ways. Sadly, the formula gets real old very quickly and is such a staple in the genre that all developers and directors have done to modify it over time is to make the main character even MORE snarky or the giddy schoolgirl even MORE obnoxious. FFXIII is epochal in this trend, and I really hope for the sake of all Eastern animation and game design that we will see a new trend sooner rather than later.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I get such a kick out the people who come here and are surprised when Yahtzee rips a game apart. That's his schtick/job/gimmick... whatever you want to call it, and that is why people come to watch the reviews. Just as it is Leonard Maltin's job to love every movie he sees and give them glorious reviews an no fewer than 4 stars, it is Yahtzee's job to hate every game he plays (even if in reality he liked it).

As for FFXIII, I cant shake the realization that the Anime/JRPG cultures have become caricatures of themselves. It seems like as a genre, anime will never break the mold it created with highly stylized stereotypes. As it is, you can't have an anime/JRPG without the following cast:

1: Self-loathing main character whose snarky sense of humor is about as frequent as the blue moon.

2: Hyper-masculine urban warrior

3: Giddy schoolgirl who is proficient in hacking, spells, or some other arcane art.

4: Tough-girl rogue with a chip on her shoulder and a mysterious past.

Now I know that not all anime has this lineup, but WAY more do than do not. And this isn't even a BAD lineup as they characters usually interact in complex ways. Sadly, the formula gets real old very quickly and is such a staple in the genre that all developers and directors have done to modify it over time is to make the main character even MORE snarky or the giddy schoolgirl even MORE obnoxious. FFXIII is epochal in this trend, and I really hope for the sake of all Eastern animation and game design that we will see a new trend sooner rather than later.

thats not so much the problem as the game, as in the game mechanics and how it plays and how its built is utter BS.They would have been better off doing a movie......

 

[Abriael]

What makes me reinforce my opinion is the fact that you've been defending your beloved japanese culture with probably more than 10 posts in this thread alone, which really is saying something.

Yep, and I defended Bioware games with more than 100 posts on the appropriate thread. So what?
I happen to have an opinion, that comes from experiencing both gaming culture to the fullest, that's the exact contrary of a bias.

And having a picture of Cracker ass Crackers makes me someone who doesn't push their preferred art style to other people with their avatar (because everyone who has an anime character as their avatar is shouting I LOVE ANIME), but rather a picture that represents what I am in a way, a cracker ass cracker.

Oh yeah, because chosing an avatar over another means "pushing one's preferred art styles to other people". Crap, me having my own Dragon Age character as an avatar on the Bioware forum must mean that I'm trying to hit on the girls around there with how damn handsome my virtual single player self is...
So, are you trying to make me fat, by pushing crackers to me?

PS: I love SOME anime, and some others (the one that most happen to love, like Dragonball, Pokemon, Naruto...) i hate to bits. You know, as a consumer I watch something and then make an informed choice on liking it or not, wherever it comes from. It's called having a brain and using it

SI mean it makes you overlook their flaws, which is what we're arguing about here, aren't we?

What you can perceive as flaws, others can perceive as strong points, or neutral points. It's called taste. There's no thing as an objective opinion over most of what you define flaws, because they are different styles that cater to different people.
There are very few things that can be objectively defined as quality or lack of thereof, and even then just partly. Graphics, Music (from a technical standpoint), animation, quality of texturing... And all those, mind you, are undeniably top notch in Final Fantasy XIII.

Now this is where you begin to sound misguided to me. Do you really think you need to actually live in Japan to understand the culture of the japanese? No, I do not to see cosplayers walking around on the streets to know that they exist, and no, nothing that I experience for myself in Japan, or anywhere else for that matter, that I saw people do, will somehow make me appreciate it. It's like saying you have to experience a life in a concentration camp to know how hard it was for people to get by in there.

I'm sorry, but understanding a completely different culture based on a completely different history and evolution takes a tad more than seeing a few things on TV. Even living there for a while it's still difficult to grasp all the nuances. Looking at how narrow minded and close minded you seem, you probably wouldn't understand even after 100 years of costant exposure, to be honest.

the Japan lovers far outnumber those who don't. Also, don't act like you haven't seen anything else Yahtzee reviewed. He tears ANYTHING apart

I've seen quite a bit. Most of the times he tries to, at least, make sense while still exaggerating. This time he gave his worst.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Uhg its not better than 6,9 or 7 they were fun and had a story that was not incoherent as much as cheap, FF8,X,12 and 13 is not only cheap but incoherent..... sure FF8,X and even 12 has some high points in their stories well FF8 mostly. When the game play goes to pot any flaw in the story or characters is that much worse. FF13 is on the same scale as FFX2 its not a real FF game...more a throw together quicky.... even japan is not that enamored with it an that says something right their.....

I'm sorry, I didn't see the part of my post where I said it was better than Final Fantasy VI... considering that's quite literally my favorite game of all time, I doubt I would have said it... but I could be wrong. Been wrong before.

Looking at the production value alone and given it's the first game in the series on current gen consoles, on multiple platforms, and has been in production since they finished Final Fantasy X, I doubt that it was "thrown together at the last minute." We seem to be ignoring (which shows just how far things come) that Final Fantasy XIII is one of the most graphically advanced games ever created, but I could care less about that stuff... more just refuting a point.

I don't see how Japan's opinion on the subject (since Japan is now a single entity and not a collective of individuals with individual opinions) makes any difference on the enjoyment that I receive from a title? I love plenty of games that the mass populace hated and hated many games that the mass populace loved. It's a matter of personal taste.

I look at anti-fanboys the same as I do the fanboys themselves. Just the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing.

 

[Abriael]

I am not afraid to say if you like and buy watered down,shallow "popy" games you are helping the industry water down content and sell less of it for more money.

Given your avatar (Since people here are judging by avatars lol) and counting the difference in taste, i could say the same of you. For me the latest mario games were "shallow poopy games" and buying them helps Nintendo in dumbing down the industry further (omg! Wasn't I biased for Japanese games? Yet I really really dislike almost everything Nintendo! The space/time continuum is going to rip!).

yet, I won't say that, because I happen to understand that different people appreciate different things, and me personally finding mario games absolutely idiotic (and mario himself one of the most pathetic characters of the whole history of gaming) doesn't make everyone that plays and appreciate them an idiot.

 

[Dracosage]

Bioshock technically starts in media res, doesn't it? I suppose a good difference in this case is that you don't actually KNOW you're starting in media res. It's only after certain revelations that you realize you're in the middle of the story, which I suppose is a really good thing?

Well, to be fair, in Bioshock, you start in a plane doing nothing: Plane crashes, game starts.

In a game like FF VII: You're on the roof of a speeding train, on your way to perform an act of terrorism.

I don't think either of you know what in media res means at all.

 

[Abriael]

This was my point exactly. I think FF13 is horrible. I don't need another lecture about how "I don't get it" or "We don't get it" or how our arguments "Lack credibility". These type of threads do bring out the Weeaboos. It's like beating at the bushes wih pocky.

I don't need to 'grow up' i need to regress, i think i've outgrown FF more than anything.

Yes i don't like FF13. Yes i do find it's community pretty agressive in telling me just how much i suck. Every time i let my thoughts be know somone always pops out and reminds me of how "i don't get the culture". I DON'T LIKE IT. It's that simple. There are FAR better JRPGs but sadly most of those are in the past.

Maybe if you didn't charge into the cray calling everyone that thinks differently from you "japanophile fantards", you wouldn't be treated like a rude, close minded jerk?

 

[Motakikurushi]

See, humans are very fickle things. I withstood FFXIII, all 60 hours of it, and yes I was 'persistent' enough to pump that much wasted time into it. I also like FFVI, FFX, FFVII, FFI, FFIII, FFIV, Earthbound, Mother 3, Chrono Trigger, FF Tactics, Kingdom Hearts, FFXII, TWEWY, Dragon Quest VIII, Persona 4 (the best JRPG ever made). Speaking from experience as a JRPG twat I can safely say that FFXIII was played simply because I was fucking bored/waiting for BlazBlue to arrive. Yahtzee, I understand, I find FFXIII depressing as well. It saddened me every time I put the disc in. I'm just glad it's over. The most beautiful game ever created, and that is it.

And for the last time, we get it, Vanille is fucking annoying, but instead let's pile all of our hatred on Fang, the worst character in a game ever.

 

[deth2munkies]

With the SNES and Paper Mario mentions I was kinda hoping for a mention of my first (and still one of my favorite) JRPGs of all time: Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Timed hits make the battles a bit more spicy and it has some tongue in cheek humor for all ages, especially the mute Mario pantomiming everything that he says, which I find hilarious.

 

[Ishadus]

If you have a difficult time telling the difference, attempt thinking with the brain in your head at some time instead of the one in you pants, there are marked physical differences which really aren't that difficult to discern. Wikipedia it sometime, you may find it educational.

And of course it takes less than three posts to see someone around this kind of discussion starting to move to personal attacks

I'm sorry if I don't make a complete physical exam to all the girls I come across, and if that mean "thinking with the brain in my pants" (not really, and I'm not sorry, but yanno...). But I'm sorry to say, despite your "market physical differences" ladies that look younger than they age exist, and aren't even that uncommon, expecially in the early twenties.

Next time I come across one, I'll be sure to ask her to let me examine her growth in detail. Maybe it'll work as a pickup line Scratch that, since we're at it, care to volunteer?

Yeah you know...respecting opinion is great and all, but she really lost it for me there. Hell, my first real girlfriend (ie longterm) was 20 years old at the time. I went to see a pg-13 movie with her once and got carded to make sure I was old enough to escort a minor in to see the movie.

And no, I'm not kidding. Both of us found it fucking hilarious, especially since she was technically older than I was. Now that's an extreme example, but she was commonly mistaken for 15 ALL the time. She's 26 now, and even now I wouldn't put her into her 20's if I didn't know better. To say that everyone looks their age and no 20 year old woman can be mistaken for a teen is quite laughable.

But anyway, getting away from the more troll-like / fanboy (on both sides) comments, I love watching Zero Punctuation. But it's comedy to me. A spectacle. It is not taken as an actual review. Hell, even the games he likes he climbs aboard the nit-pick train and heads towards the stop of Bitter Junction. Why? Because it's bloody hilarious. The fact that so many people take up arms either in defence of the games he bludgeons or in the defence of his integrity as a critic are both missing the point. Just fucking relax and have a laugh, even if it's a self-deprecating one.

I'm a gamer. I've played at least a little bit of everything be it rpg, fps, rts, mmorpg. action/adventure, etc. I, like everyone else on this pathetic little planet, have an opinion. I am a huge Final Fantasy fan. But that's not to say I love EVERY single thing about EVERY final fantasy. Yes the Martian dressed angsty teen thing gets old at times, but their character development is quite varied and creative. I love some of their storylines, and give a half hearted "meh" at others. The storyline in FF tactics is still one of my favourite tales to this day, but on the other hand.....a gunblade? Are you fucking kidding me? And everyone talks about it like it's this great innovation in weaponry. Why don't I just pick up a nuclear warhead and start pummeling people with it as if it's a club. It's innovative!

FFXIII had some great moments, but it was the biggest letdown for me since FF X-2 (which I officially term Barbie Girl Dress-up Adventures). If you liked it in its entirety, then more power to you. If you hated it, then move on to something else. Going onto an internet forum to whine and ***** and declare something's utter crap as though people are supposed to give a toss about your opinion...it's really sad. Anyone who feels the need to nerd-ragingly insist that their subjective opinion is objective fact should have their brain replaced with a chinchilla. At least then they could marvel at how soft the inside of their cranium feels as they drool on themselves.


tl;dr version:
-Yahtzee is funny, but for God's sake treat it for the humour that it is and not as canonized law (or something pretending to be canonized law).
-I love FF, but FFXIII was a substantial disappointment for me. Now that I've finished it, I'll not likely play it again.
-Someone's opinion is just that, regardless of who you are. There is no absolute right or wrong. Nerdrage all you want, but in the end no one will end up giving a shit.