Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

[xanith02100]

Yahtzee does indeed have good taste for the classics I say. I feel like we've bonded that we share many of the same favorite JRPGs after all.

 

[FinalHeart95]

If I'm wrong, then I damn well ENJOY being wrong. FFXIII is a blast. It's not the best in the series, but it's far from the worst. In my opinion, it's an improvement on XII in that I actually had the motivation to beat it...

Basically, I enjoy the games I do because of my opinion. And if you say my opinion is wrong, so be it. I really don't give a damn about your opinion.

 

[A random person]

But I don't think you can say that it is impossible to play FF13... You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system.

He mentioned why waiting to get to the best parts is not a good selling point, using Plan 9 and putting your hand on a stove as metaphors (both in different reviews).


That said, I want to know if he's ever played Persona 3 and/or 4, and what his thoughts on them were. I guess he really just can't be bothered to play them, given his apparently busy schedule.

Having played a little into Persona 3 FES (in my neverending quest to catch up to the general public), I'd have to second those recommendations. Which is strange, as in JRPG's I tend to want overworlds, growing parties, and multiple dungeons, but Persona 3 still managed to addict me.

Also, Yahtzee's claim of someone enjoying FFXIII being objectively wrong is arrogant even for him, and doesn't have the saving grace of being funny. On a similar note, don't cite FFVIII's plot (the thing about past and future being smashed together) as a problem with JRPG's in general, FFVIII is widely despised (see Spoony's review for details).

 

[black-magic]

Bah! The only good RPG's ever made have paper mario in the title.

 

[Sakurazaki1023]

Okay, this whole affair started off humorous, watching fanbies on both sides of this religious crusade sling mud at each other. However, now it's just gotten stupid, in my opinion. To both sides, I can only say grow-up and get over it. It's just a game; everyone's tastes are different. Not everyone has to like the things you like, and not everyone has to not like the things you don't like. This much energy and effort to validate one's personal preferences is just ludicrous. Happiness comes from within, not from without.

Also, I'm going to say this: contrary to Yahtzee's "divine dictum", I did PLAY the game, and I did ENJOY the game(this is because Yahtzee's opinions have no bearing on my own choices and preferences). There are some who feel the same, and there are some who feel quite differently. This is allowed to occur because it is a game, and people are different with different tastes.

This entire fight just needs to end, and people need to just get on with playing games they enjoy(be that FF13 or otherwise). Don't let one incendiary curmudgeon ruin life for you.

(I still like his ZP, though.)

I completely agree

Case in point, I am currently playing Fallout 3 and Operation Darkness (both on the 360). Despite the big "Game of the Year" label on Fallout, I'm have far more fun with the WWII tactics game that has an average review score of 5/10 (mainly for sub-par graphics and a annoying camera). It's just a matter of personal preference, this anti-JRPG shit has got to stop.

But I don't think you can say that it is impossible to play FF13... You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system.

He mentioned why waiting to get to the best parts is not a good selling point, using Plan 9 and putting your hand on a stove as metaphors (both in different reviews).


That said, I want to know if he's ever played Persona 3 and/or 4, and what his thoughts on them were. I guess he really just can't be bothered to play them, given his apparently busy schedule.

Having played a little into Persona 3 FES (in my neverending quest to catch up to the general public), I'd have to second those recommendations. Which is strange, as in JRPG's I tend to want overworlds, growing parties, and multiple dungeons, but Persona 3 still managed to addict me.

Also, Yahtzee's claim of someone enjoying FFXIII being objectively wrong is arrogant even for him, and doesn't have the saving grace of being funny. On a similar note, don't cite FFVIII's plot (the thing about past and future being smashed together) as a problem with JRPG's in general, FFVIII is widely despised (see Spoony's review for details).

Sadly, I doubt Yahtzee would ever play a Persona game. I'm sure it's way too Japanese for his tastes and takes way to long to get going. While the Persona games are among my favorite games of all time, he would get about 3-4 hours into it and start complaining about still being in the tutorial areas and how every male character looks like girl. Besides, if he couldn't get through FF13 what chance does he have against the 100+ hour Persona 3 FES?

 

[Serge A. Storms]

I basically have to drive 8-10 hours a weekend getting to and from either Atlanta or Beaufort, SC, when I'm on the returning end of one of those weekends, I want to sit down and play a game for fun, I don't want a game that punishes me for driving so much by making me wait 20 hours before it decides to be fun. Fuck FFXIII and the game developers that think I need to give their game some level of real commitment and dedication in my life before it puts out.

 

[ShankHA32]

massive snip

See, I'm really bad at putting my points across, and I can't be arsed to spend much more time in this thread so I'll keep it short . Avatar - by definition - is something that represents you. Whenever I think of furburt, I think of Bruce Campbell, whenever I think of someone with a funny gif avatar, I picture them as someone with a sense of humor. However, whenever I see someone's avatar to be a yet another clone character from a yet another anime/manga whatever, I see an avatar that basically doesn't represent anything except the person's love for anime. Simple as that. Also, something I keep noticing in all those japanophiles on this site. At least 95% have anime characters as their avatars. Coincidence? I think not. I also stated pretty clearly somewhere above I want my avatar to represent me, not my hobbies, which is what I think some other people should do too.

Sure, sometimes avatars do represent people as a whole. Or sometimes people just pick one and then never change it.
Just because I have an avatar that has a JRPG character on it doesn't make me a "japanophile"

Its the same thing as stereotyping a race. It's simply lazy to just push everyone to one side based on a picture below their name.

 

[Charli]

Its a shame, if they were slightly better written and less... Typical Anime-genericism, I really think you'd like the 'Tales of', Series, at least for it's unconventional approach to the JRPG combat system.

Sadly I think though if you picked it up the first few hours would drive you into a small corner, hunched over and eating tissues, claiming there is a nice dark place of 'safe'.

....But again to each their own, I don't play final fantasy anymore, Ironically it's the Style thats pushed me away more than anything, this sodding hyper-stupid realism junk is just making fantasy boring.

I want to see some seriously messed up characters. That's what made FF9 quite an achievement to me, no character, bar the princess (and even then she had some serious issues)was normal, each was fat, ugly, weird, strange, deformed and funny.

And I loved that.

All these skinny generic bodied Adolescents are annoying and creepy.

 

[ShankHA32]

Sure, sometimes avatars do represent people as a whole. Or sometimes people just pick one and then never change it.
Just because I have an avatar that has a JRPG character on it doesn't make me a "japanophile"

Its the same thing as stereotyping a race. It's simply lazy to just push everyone to one side based on a picture below their name.

Race isn't something you get by choice. Your cartoon or game preferences are. Also, there is an exception to every rule. Sure, some aren't, most of them are.

That really wasn't the point I was trying to get at. Generalizations are well and good, but there comes a point when it's just ignorant to be, "Well you have an avatar that's japanese looking, so all your points are invalid. Now, when I go over your points and refute them, I'm gonna constantly go back to how INVALID your points are based on that avatar."

I don't think it has ever been wise to define an entire person by a picture that is located directly below the name, and directly above your respective e-manliness, er I mean the post counter. And certainly not before you hear them out and try and understand their points.

I see where you're coming from. "Why should I have to sort through all the garbage to find a gem? It's like playing a billion terrible fighting games and tripping over Street Fighter II back in the 90s!"

However when "sifting through all the garbage" involves reading text off the screen MINUS the bias you have made on a picture, which you would probably be doing anyway, even if they didn't have a Japanese looking avatar, you should maybe give people a chance to suprise you.

Thats my half a penny. (adjusting for the inflation of ideas on the internet)

 

[Tharwen]

Any news on Fun Space Game: The Game?

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Uhg its not better than 6,9 or 7 they were fun and had a story that was not incoherent as much as cheap, FF8,X,12 and 13 is not only cheap but incoherent..... sure FF8,X and even 12 has some high points in their stories well FF8 mostly. When the game play goes to pot any flaw in the story or characters is that much worse. FF13 is on the same scale as FFX2 its not a real FF game...more a throw together quicky.... even japan is not that enamored with it an that says something right their.....

I'm sorry, I didn't see the part of my post where I said it was better than Final Fantasy VI... considering that's quite literally my favorite game of all time, I doubt I would have said it... but I could be wrong. Been wrong before.

Looking at the production value alone and given it's the first game in the series on current gen consoles, on multiple platforms, and has been in production since they finished Final Fantasy X, I doubt that it was "thrown together at the last minute." We seem to be ignoring (which shows just how far things come) that Final Fantasy XIII is one of the most graphically advanced games ever created, but I could care less about that stuff... more just refuting a point.

I don't see how Japan's opinion on the subject (since Japan is now a single entity and not a collective of individuals with individual opinions) makes any difference on the enjoyment that I receive from a title? I love plenty of games that the mass populace hated and hated many games that the mass populace loved. It's a matter of personal taste.

I look at anti-fanboys the same as I do the fanboys themselves. Just the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing.

Sorry I just can not stand FF13 its not even a normal RPG ><, and if it were not for story and characters I can almost say the same for bioware RPGs....

Looking at how they are working on the MMO and another FF project and other games yes I'd say it was thrown together last miniete over the past few years...

Production vales just means its pretty and would make a good action flick it dose not mean they bothered to make a good game out of it.....


Well Japan is pretty rabid on RPGs(like the US is for halo) and when they lose some of their furoisity on buying it and the price drops....something is up, is my point.....

I am not afraid to say if you like and buy watered down,shallow "popy" games you are helping the industry water down content and sell less of it for more money.

Given your avatar (Since people here are judging by avatars lol) and counting the difference in taste, i could say the same of you. For me the latest mario games were "shallow poopy games" and buying them helps Nintendo in dumbing down the industry further (omg! Wasn't I biased for Japanese games? Yet I really really dislike almost everything Nintendo! The space/time continuum is going to rip!).

yet, I won't say that, because I happen to understand that different people appreciate different things, and me personally finding mario games absolutely idiotic (and mario himself one of the most pathetic characters of the whole history of gaming) doesn't make everyone that plays and appreciate them an idiot.

Ya know I will still say it if you pay money for crap, crap is what you get no matter what kind of rose colored ignorance you are wearing, yes thats harsh but if consumers gave a damn we'd have slightly better things to consume rather than generic crappy music and most films and games.

You can say going after the lowest common denominator is merely giving people what they want but I call it as I see and manure is still sh!t.....

 

[Regiment]

I get such a kick out the people who come here and are surprised when Yahtzee rips a game apart. That's his schtick/job/gimmick... whatever you want to call it, and that is why people come to watch the reviews.

But anyway, getting away from the more troll-like / fanboy (on both sides) comments, I love watching Zero Punctuation. But it's comedy to me. A spectacle. It is not taken as an actual review. Hell, even the games he likes he climbs aboard the nit-pick train and heads towards the stop of Bitter Junction. Why? Because it's bloody hilarious. The fact that so many people take up arms either in defence of the games he bludgeons or in the defence of his integrity as a critic are both missing the point. Just fucking relax and have a laugh, even if it's a self-deprecating one.

It's like the people on American Idol that complain that Simon was mean to them, isn't it?

On topic: I actually don't know what this thread is about any more. So, some people like this game, and others don't, and they think they can convince each other otherwise by use of ad hominem attacks? You won't get someone to stop liking something by telling them how clearly deviant they are for liking it, you know.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I get such a kick out the people who come here and are surprised when Yahtzee rips a game apart. That's his schtick/job/gimmick... whatever you want to call it, and that is why people come to watch the reviews.

But anyway, getting away from the more troll-like / fanboy (on both sides) comments, I love watching Zero Punctuation. But it's comedy to me. A spectacle. It is not taken as an actual review. Hell, even the games he likes he climbs aboard the nit-pick train and heads towards the stop of Bitter Junction. Why? Because it's bloody hilarious. The fact that so many people take up arms either in defence of the games he bludgeons or in the defence of his integrity as a critic are both missing the point. Just fucking relax and have a laugh, even if it's a self-deprecating one.

It's like the people on American Idol that complain that Simon was mean to them, isn't it?

On topic: I actually don't know what this thread is about any more. So, some people like this game, and others don't, and they think they can convince each other otherwise by use of ad hominem attacks? You won't get someone to stop liking something by telling them how clearly deviant they are for liking it, you know.

I dunno I am a idiot either way but I would like people to buy more used stuff and lay off buying the crpappieiest pop crap they can just cause its popular....

 

[Nictel]

So in that case I enjoyed the experience of FFXIII just like I enjoyed the experience of Heavy Rain.

 

[Abriael]

Ya know I will still say it if you pay money for crap, crap is what you get no matter what kind of rose colored ignorance you are wearing, yes thats harsh but if consumers gave a damn we'd have slightly better things to consume rather than generic crappy music and most films and games.

You can say going after the lowest common denominator is merely giving people what they want but I call it as I see and manure is still sh!t.....

Actually, if they went after the lowest common denominator, they'd make a Mario game on the wii

See, I can do that as well.

I pay money for entertainment, and paying 70 Euros for 100+ hours of fun has been a very, very solid investment for me.

Sorry man, but you're in no position to call people "ignorant" because they happen to enjoy a game that you don't.
Deal with it

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Ya know I will still say it if you pay money for crap, crap is what you get no matter what kind of rose colored ignorance you are wearing, yes thats harsh but if consumers gave a damn we'd have slightly better things to consume rather than generic crappy music and most films and games.

You can say going after the lowest common denominator is merely giving people what they want but I call it as I see and manure is still sh!t.....

Actually, if they went after the lowest common denominator, they'd make a Mario game on the wii

See, I can do that as well.

I pay money for entertainment, and paying 70 Euros for 100+ hours of fun has been a very, very solid investment for me.

Sorry man, but you're in no position to call people "ignorant" because they happen to enjoy a game that you don't.
Deal with it

Meh Mario galxey is not that bad, the 2D remake tho...WTF people!!!!!

100 hours? FF13 is only 40 hours long and most of that is grueling

Besides lowest common denominator dose not care about game mechanics, options or playability all they care bout is if it fits into their small attention span time frame....... The modern hard core gamer is petty and shallow pretty and special effects and brands outweigh solid designs. Gaming should stop following in the film industries foot steps.... on second thought design games with player AI so it plays itself and I don't have to be forced to play a crappy game which are now the majority of games....


Sorry films and games I can not get over....... and yes Transformers still SUCKS

 

[Azaraxzealot]

You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system.

Well, IMO, if a console game hasn't revealed at least 40% of its content in the first THREE hours... then it's not worth playing

 

[Zukonub]

You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system.

Well, IMO, if a console game hasn't revealed at least 40% of its content in the first THREE hours... then it's not worth playing

It's okay. I can dig it. Personally I found the game interesting enough to carry on, but I can see how a lot of people couldn't.

 

[bjj hero]

Wow, people on both sides have gotten really bent out of shape by this FF13 review. Personally I'm burnt out on JRPGs. I knew this had happened when I saw Lost Odyssey for £8 and still didn't buy it. I think its because I've been playing RPGs since the late 80s. I still remember playing Lords of midnight and Druid the enlightenment.

I feel like the golden age of JRPGs was 16bit, There were a few PSX/PS2/Game Cube games I liked but they didnt have the charm of those 16 bit games. I'm not going to play FF13, my life has changes and I don't want to spned 20 hours bored to get to the good stuff. I have a family. I also find it patronising that the developer feels I wont "get" the battle system without someone to wipe my nose and do it for me.

When did people assume that "Role Playing Game" meant "You, Mr./Ms. player, are the hero." To me it always meant you were playing the "role" of a character in a predetermined story, as if you were playing the part of the character in a play, but a play that you were also watching at the same time.

It's official, Gears of War is an RPG...

The only bias here is that against Japanese games, that some western gamers (and wannabe journalists that turn into stereotype-mongers) seem to have. It's always sad that diversity tends to cause that much fear and hatred.

That is a fair point, there is also bias against western games in Japan. Bias is part of being human. You were right Abriael when you said that you a much better feel for culture by living else where. I'd advise everyone to do it at some point. I moved to Texas and have a much better understanding of the area than most none Americans. That doesn't make other peoples opinion invalid, although it may be misinformed.

OT as a reviewer you should play more than 5 hours, even if a game is wank. As a layperson 5 hours is too long and would be enough for me to shelve it or trade it in.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Of course Yahtzee does tend to bait fans by saying hyperbolic things like "if you like it then you are provably wrong", hence some of the rage is brought upon himself, but he makes some fairly valid criticisms. Above all, the fact that you have to play the game for twenty hours before it gets good. Those are twenty hours I'd rather spend doing research for my thesis. I was under the impression that games were meant to be fun, and if it's not fun, I don't sit around telling myself "I'll keep playing 'til it gets better". That's why I gave up on WoW at about level 30.

I've only played one real JRPG (Pokemon does not count), and that was Golden Sun. Interestingly enough, when I was younger I managed to ignore the fact that the game goes on for about 3 hours before actually getting good, including at one point a 15 minute dialogue that you can't skip; and managed to finish the game. I picked it up again a couple of years ago and was almost instantly bored. Read what you will into that, but children are supposed to have the shorter attention span...