Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

[madrick11]

As much as I love JRPGS, I do agree with some of the things Yahtzee says. Admittedly, I am currently enjoying FFXIII, however it doesn't feel as strong as FFVI, or FFVII, or hell, not even FFIV. These days I find that Atlus is the company that makes the best JRPGS out there, such as,
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
the Persona series
the Devil Summoner series
and even the Digital Devil Saga series
Even though I'm diehard Square fan, they have been disappointing me lately, with their only good titles in recent years in my opinion being, The World Ends With You, and FFXIII (again, that's just my opinion).

 

[Bosola]

In a game that can easily last more than a 100 hours?

Stretching it a bit, but I'll let this fly

You playeded 5% of the game and you're surprised if you didn't unlock more than half of the system?

No. He played five hours and was surprised the mechanics were gimped. The real-time measurement is important. It doesn't matter what proportion of the game you've completed - if the game does not offer you new skills and matters to deal with as you master them, then the learning curve is, well, flatlining, and this can make a game significantly less fun.

Not that every other FF game gets away on this point. I'm often inclined to believe that VII introduces Added Effect, MP Absorb and Counter - some of the most interesting materia in the game - far too late on (by which point, they've been rendered redundant by Ultima / Trine / their many cousins)

Then I guess all the western RPGs in which you start with crappy equipment and very few skills must be horrible for you?

Except that they then soon start introducing many new elements to master, and quickly. LordNue 's specific complaint is that XIII does the very opposite of this, and that this will spoil the pacing of the game.

Not to mention those FPSs that, have you play the first 5% only with a crowbar? Those must really disgust you, I guess.

As I recall, HL1 doesn't leave you with a crowbar for very long. In fact, there's about thirty seconds between the bar and the first available firearm. HL2 leaves you weaponless for a while, but then again, I think that HL2 is just not a very well-paced game, and that its on-rails, restrictive philosophy can be too suffocating to make it a worthy sequel to its predecessor. Of course, HL1 was no less linear, but it always managed the trick of offering you one choice, but pulling the illusion that you'd determined it yourself. But I digress.

Also: GarlandG thinks it's too slow, too. And if you won't believe him, then all's lost for you ; )

 

[Abriael]

Given that you did a flawed and biased comparison yourself you shouldn't be talking. The point is that it is utterly retarded to have chunks of an entire system arbitrarily locked away for no reason, especially if it takes more then 5 hours just to see glimpses of this regardless of how long the game is over all.

You don't see "glimpses". There's a steady progression.

Stretching it a bit, but I'll let this fly

It's not stretched at all. If anyone manages to do all the missions in less than 100 hours, I'll give him a medal.

No. He played five hours and was surprised the mechanics were gimped. The real-time measurement is important. It doesn't matter what proportion of the game you've completed - if the game does not offer you new skills and matters to deal with as you master them, then the learning curve is, well, flatlining, and this can make a game significantly less fun.

but the game offers you PLENTY new skills as you progress. It even offers you new character. There's tons of skills to unlock in FFXIII, not just the paradygms. And the game is very progressive since the very start in unlocking them.
Does it give you ALL he skills at the very beginning? No.
Does it leave you without progression? Never.

It's that simple.

 

[Zukonub]

To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.

 

[Zukonub]

But what I meant with the beginning quote was that some of the later battles in the game are absolutely PHUN. Some of the best battles in the entire series, and not even after the 20-hour mark.

 

[Abriael]

To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.

You're absolutely right. That's why you unlock the ability of use Paradigm Shift, the first paradigms, and the crystarium at the very beginning of chapter 3, which is more or less ONE hour (one hour and an half if you play reeeal slow) into the game

Whoppiedoo!

 

[boholikeu]

Gameplay can be contradictory to the story if the player's actions don't match what the game story is trying to tell you. For example, it's contradictory for an RPG that's about healing the world to only make the combat situations playable. For a better explanation of this google "ludo-narrative dissonance".

Good point, too bad that Final Fantasy XIII isn't about "healing the world" at all, not even nearly.

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

 

[Abriael]

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.

 

[stone0042]

In all honesty, he should check out Legends of Legaia, for the PS1. I absolutely loved this game, and it seems to fit pretty well with his criteria.

 

[boholikeu]

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

 

[Zukonub]

To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.

You're absolutely right. That's why you unlock the ability of use Paradigm Shift, the first paradigms, and the crystarium at the very beginning of chapter 3, which is more or less ONE hour (one hour and an half if you play reeeal slow) into the game

Whoppiedoo!

Well, I did clear out all the areas. I suppose I just play really slow!

 

[Vicioussama]

Yahtzee, I have a question. What did you think about Fina Fantasy IX? Since it was created by the original creator of the series and didn't EXACTLY start off in the middle of things in terms of the story or character development but did start off in the middle of a mission, that is true. I personally find FF9 to be my favorite. Has better pacing in story and character development than FF1-6, but none of that goofy nonsense shit like FF8, 10, X-2, XII, XIII lol. FF7 is kinda a mixed thing, has some goofy shit but not really in a bad way.

So ya, would love your thoughts on FF9 if you preferred the older FFs especially.

 

[Tetranitrophenol]

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.
I gave up trying to convince him when he told me he has played and enjoyed each and every Final Fantasy game since #1 and still thinks FF13 is a Masterpiece. Not that I believe him but if he is capable of saying such things with a straight face then there is no hope for him...except, you know...Hope.

 

[Abriael]

I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.

You know, people with a brain have opinions and ideas. They often defend them even if you happen to believe they are wrong and "try to convince" them.

Or maybe you think that someone should immediately stand at attention and bend over as soon as you tell them "you're wrong!" with some weak argument made up of hearsay and prejudices?

The fact that a random guy on the internet with awful gaming tastes, whose job is bashing games while blabbering without pauses hates a game, doesn't automatically make that game bad (actually, it raises the chances for that game to be actually good).

Well, I did clear out all the areas. I suppose I just play really slow!

I cleared out every single chest and mob myself. I can't imagine taking more than one hour and an half for the first two chapters. After that, both the crystarium AND paradigm shift are unlocked and progress becomes costant (completely voiding the "5 hours" theory, by the way).

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

The gameplay isn't related to the story how? The characters are fugitives. They're hunted. They fight the ones that are hunting them. What's exactly divorced in that?

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

Lesson learned though, next time someone labels a paragraph with the title of a game I plan on playing, I'm staying clear.

 

[Vicioussama]

Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it)), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

You didn't have to read his extra punctuation lol. Also, he's had many spoilers in the past, shoulda figured there'd be spoilers about past games he's talking about.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it)), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

You didn't have to read his extra punctuation lol. Also, he's had many spoilers in the past, shoulda figured there'd be spoilers about past games he's talking about.

lol, I obviously edited too late. Still, I don't expect spoilers when watching his videos, why should I typically expect them in the article? I'm pretty sure I've seen him use spoiler tags before. (But don't take my word for it, I'm not entirely sure)

 

[ZaronX]

Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

Lesson learned though, next time someone labels a paragraph with the title of a game I plan on playing, I'm staying clear.

The apocalypse thing isn't so much of a spoiler when it and the word "opera" are the two things people tend to think stand out most from the game within the series. Yahtzee didn't mention how it comes about, exactly when it happens, or what the results of it are, so while it is certainly a light spoiler it's no reason to feel put off of the entire thing.

The fact that a random guy on the internet with awful gaming tastes, whose job is bashing games while blabbering without pauses hates a game, doesn't automatically make that game bad (actually, it raises the chances for that game to be actually good).

I've actually found Yahtzee's tastes to be fairly dependable. He's stated many times that he focuses on the negative points because that's what people want from him, but the general rule is that while he may point out the faults that doesn't automatically make the entire game bad. The only time I've really disagreed with him is when he paired the control setup of Smash Bros. to every other fighter ever, but I have to take it with a grain of salt because as Smash Bros. is concerned I'm very much a fan.

Perhaps the grain of salt bit is what you're missing. Jus' chill a tad. People getting all up in arms defending the quality of every FF entry is what put me off of the series for the better part of two console generations.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

Lesson learned though, next time someone labels a paragraph with the title of a game I plan on playing, I'm staying clear.

The apocalypse thing isn't so much of a spoiler when it and the word "opera" are the two things people tend to think stand out most from the game within the series. Yahtzee didn't mention how it comes about, exactly when it happens, or what the results of it are, so while it is certainly a light spoiler it's no reason to feel put off of the entire thing.

Didn't he say the villain wants to blow up the world and that it happens halfway through the game? To me that kind of makes it sound like I just found out the 'who' and 'when' at the very least. Otherwise, I guess you're right. There's always the chance I'm totally wrong, so there's not much point in getting too worked up about it...yet.

 

[Terramax]

It's a pity he's probably never played Panzer Dragoon Saga. I wonder what he'd think of that game?