You will never be good at Melee again.

[ReinWeisserRitter]

I still don't see what is gained by sakurai from trying to implement things like tripping. Shoo-ing away niche audiences does not magically attract the "intended" audience. I would have thought making a comprimise would be the best decision, it wouldn't be hard, the community would lap it up, and it would probably have boosted the game's publicity up even more. It would attract people who are into other fighting games.

They're not interested in attracting those people; they want the game to be played and enjoyed as they intended, and feel the people who cry for things to be as fair and predictable and streamlined as possible undermine the experience. I can respect that.

 

[Zeriphor]

Because of this; I wouldn't play a game like this unless it's played as it was intended. And because I think it's more impressive to see someone win when everything isn't exactly as they expect; the true mark of a good player is when they can win while adapting to ever-changing circumstances.

That notion goes against the idea of a fair competition.

The fact of the matter is, the reason smash bros got a competetive scene in the first place isn't the design. Already we've seen games like mortal kombat, marvel vs capcom and even teenage mutant ninja turtles on the SNES has a tournament scene.

All of these games were not designed with fairness within hardcore play, yet (maybe except TMNT which probably only has a small competetive scene) they grew some nice competetive scenes.

The reason for this is simple, it comes down to the basic rules within the game. The idea that you can fight the opponent 1vs1. Smash bros wasn't designed for this, but it was possible to have a fair fight, one versus one against another player, without any randomness within the game.

This one key factor, to be able to have a fair match against another player with fairly solid game mechanics, that fact alone is enough to spawn a competetive scene out of the craziest games imaginable. But for some reason, competetive smash players are attacked for putting some effort to building a competetive scene around their game.

As I hinted to in another post of mine in this thread, I think niche audiences should be catered to in some way when designing sequels, and that includes a competetive scene. Smash bros. is the only game with a big competetive scene that hasn't had a developer almost pander to them, and it baffles me.

EDIT: I'll also mention that what baffles me even more is that the smash community still hasn't given up on the game, hacking the game to try and make a suitable substitute for competetive play (I don't exactly agree with that idea though... it will never work because the competetive scene will always focus on the official version[/i].

I'm glad to see someone talking sense in this thread. Why are so many people in this thread mad at competitive smash bros? Why do they feel using game mechanics to gain an advantage is exploiting, and removing certain parts of the game invalidates it?

Competitive Magic: The Gathering is pretty well respected from what I've seen, and it does both these things. Only the latest 4-7 sets out of the dozens and dozens that have been released are allowed. Additionally, players only use the best cards printed. I really don't see a difference here.

Because standard is just ONE format of many in Magic. You can use every card in Vintage, almost every card (and all of them in the budget of 99% of players) in Legacy, last 20 or so sets in Modern, etc.

What Brawl and Melee tournament players do is force the tournament to be played one way and one way only. That's not a fun environment.

Except I can turn that right back on you. Final destination, no items is ONE format. If you don't like it play the format you enjoy.

Try finding a tournament that allows certain characters, or the smash ball, or items at all. It isn't gonna happen. Accepted tournament format is one way, and one way only. Meanwhile, my local store has Legacy tournaments on Wednesday, Modern on Thursday, Standard on Friday, and Commander on Saturday.

That's because those formats don't support a fair matchup due to random chance and problems with the game's design. If you want unfair games then you're going to have a hard time finding accepted tournaments for it.

 

[Zeriphor]

I still don't see what is gained by sakurai from trying to implement things like tripping. Shoo-ing away niche audiences does not magically attract the "intended" audience. I would have thought making a comprimise would be the best decision, it wouldn't be hard, the community would lap it up, and it would probably have boosted the game's publicity up even more. It would attract people who are into other fighting games.

They're not interested in attracting those people; they want the game to be played and enjoyed as they intended, and feel the people who cry for things to be as fair and predictable and streamlined as possible undermine the experience. I can respect that.

You can respect adding a mechanic to a game that almost entirely removes a mode of play for that game? No, that isn't good design. Good design is allowing a game to be enjoyed however a group chooses to. Be that competitive skill based games or crazy fun time thousands of bobomb games.

 

[Fishyash]

I still don't see what is gained by sakurai from trying to implement things like tripping. Shoo-ing away niche audiences does not magically attract the "intended" audience. I would have thought making a comprimise would be the best decision, it wouldn't be hard, the community would lap it up, and it would probably have boosted the game's publicity up even more. It would attract people who are into other fighting games.

They're not interested in attracting those people; they want the game to be played and enjoyed as they intended, and feel the people who cry for things to be as fair and predictable and streamlined as possible undermine the experience. I can respect that.

I personally can't support the idea that there's a "wrong" way to play a game. I wouldn't mind if a developer did this by accident, but as you said, Sakurai definitely did it on purpose. Catering to multiple audiences should be praised, not fought against.

In regards to your streamlined comment, I don't really like streamlining games, comparing street fighter 2 to street fighter 4, I would consider SF2 broken and SF4 anti-broken (boring).

However, also in regards to your streamlined comment, I feel Brawl has been streamlined anyways. It feels slower and floatier than Melee, people live too long. They took the (what I consider) "good bad bugs" away, and then they add tripping, something that adds nothing to the game. Brawl is just boring in comparison, that I rely on the items to have any enjoyment of the game, while in melee it doesn't matter whether I have items or not.

 

[theultimateend]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

He wouldn't do it if it wasn't effective. He's playing to win. No reason to hate him for it.

For the same reason Wesker in UMvC3 is effective.

Doesn't mean it's not cheap as fuck

It's not cheap it's just strategy, if you think you can do it go to a tournament and give it a shot.

I'd never play in a tournament because of just this type of meta bullshit.

Making the other 99% of the game irrelevant because the 1% beats everything else is just ridiculous.

Oh cmon, it's really cheap right? Just use those strategies and you'll be OP right? Oh man maybe you can even use top tier characters,you'd be unstoppable

Of course I can't compete with tournament players, never said I could.

Doesn't mean I can't criticise the gameplay ethic behind it all.

We had all sorts of tournaments in high school that didn't involve this sorta stuff.

I was a bit bummed because the year after I left a duo at my school won the Smash Bros tournament at PAX. They were shit which told me the rest of the competition at PAX that year must have been real bad or just real unlucky .

However, also in regards to your streamlined comment, I feel Brawl has been streamlined anyways. It feels slower and floatier than Melee, people live too long. They took the (what I consider) "good bad bugs" away, and then they add tripping, something that adds nothing to the game. Brawl is just boring in comparison, that I rely on the items to have any enjoyment of the game, while in melee it doesn't matter whether I have items or not.

Boring is a generous word for that game.

Melee was fun just about any way you sliced it.

Brawl is fun if you enjoy battling the level more than your friends.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

You can respect adding a mechanic to a game that almost entirely removes a mode of play for that game? No, that isn't good design. Good design is allowing a game to be enjoyed however a group chooses to. Be that competitive skill based games or crazy fun time thousands of bobomb games.

Yes, I do, and that's all I have left to say on the matter.

You'll survive, trust me.

 

[Zeriphor]

Because of this; I wouldn't play a game like this unless it's played as it was intended. And because I think it's more impressive to see someone win when everything isn't exactly as they expect; the true mark of a good player is when they can win while adapting to ever-changing circumstances.

That notion goes against the idea of a fair competition.

The fact of the matter is, the reason smash bros got a competetive scene in the first place isn't the design. Already we've seen games like mortal kombat, marvel vs capcom and even teenage mutant ninja turtles on the SNES has a tournament scene.

All of these games were not designed with fairness within hardcore play, yet (maybe except TMNT which probably only has a small competetive scene) they grew some nice competetive scenes.

The reason for this is simple, it comes down to the basic rules within the game. The idea that you can fight the opponent 1vs1. Smash bros wasn't designed for this, but it was possible to have a fair fight, one versus one against another player, without any randomness within the game.

This one key factor, to be able to have a fair match against another player with fairly solid game mechanics, that fact alone is enough to spawn a competetive scene out of the craziest games imaginable. But for some reason, competetive smash players are attacked for putting some effort to building a competetive scene around their game.

As I hinted to in another post of mine in this thread, I think niche audiences should be catered to in some way when designing sequels, and that includes a competetive scene. Smash bros. is the only game with a big competetive scene that hasn't had a developer almost pander to them, and it baffles me.

EDIT: I'll also mention that what baffles me even more is that the smash community still hasn't given up on the game, hacking the game to try and make a suitable substitute for competetive play (I don't exactly agree with that idea though... it will never work because the competetive scene will always focus on the official version[/i].

I'm glad to see someone talking sense in this thread. Why are so many people in this thread mad at competitive smash bros? Why do they feel using game mechanics to gain an advantage is exploiting, and removing certain parts of the game invalidates it?

Competitive Magic: The Gathering is pretty well respected from what I've seen, and it does both these things. Only the latest 4-7 sets out of the dozens and dozens that have been released are allowed. Additionally, players only use the best cards printed. I really don't see a difference here.

Because standard is just ONE format of many in Magic. You can use every card in Vintage, almost every card (and all of them in the budget of 99% of players) in Legacy, last 20 or so sets in Modern, etc.

What Brawl and Melee tournament players do is force the tournament to be played one way and one way only. That's not a fun environment.

Except I can turn that right back on you. Final destination, no items is ONE format. If you don't like it play the format you enjoy.

Try finding a tournament that allows certain characters, or the smash ball, or items at all. It isn't gonna happen. Accepted tournament format is one way, and one way only. Meanwhile, my local store has Legacy tournaments on Wednesday, Modern on Thursday, Standard on Friday, and Commander on Saturday.

That's because those formats don't support a fair matchup due to random chance and problems with the game's design. If you want unfair games then you're going to have a hard time finding accepted tournaments for it.

Unfair? As people pointed out above me, the GAME WAS BUILT UNFAIR. Why should you kill the fun of everyone else by booting the random element that the game puts in by default? Why should players be forced to play the one and only way that someone chose, because they arbitrarily decided one item or characters was "unfair"?

No one's forcing you to partake in these tournaments. The fact that the game is built unfair is irrelevant to how people want to play the game. You're the ones trying to kill the fun of other players by trying to fight these tournaments (unless you just want more kinds of tournaments, in which cause I support you).

Going back to the Magic example, commander was not what the makers intended. Players came up with it and created the rules and a banlist. The creators later turned it into a sanctioned format. In Smash Bros, players created the tournament format with its banlist, followed by the creators doing everything they could to make that style impossible (see: tripping).

 

[Zeriphor]

You can respect adding a mechanic to a game that almost entirely removes a mode of play for that game? No, that isn't good design. Good design is allowing a game to be enjoyed however a group chooses to. Be that competitive skill based games or crazy fun time thousands of bobomb games.

Yes, I do, and that's all I have left to say on the matter.

You'll survive, trust me.

If you feel that alienating a percentage of your fans and destroying their game mode is good design, then I don't think we have much to agree on.

 

[thewanderer41]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

Butbutbutbut that's how the pros do it Daystar!

Reminds me of how gay LoL has gotten since I last played. If you don't do everything according to the meta you're doing it wrong. Fuck e-sports.

No items!

Fox only!

Final Destination!

Best game mode ever:

No items!

Captain Falcon only!

Final Destination!

5 stock

FALCON PUNCH ONLY!

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

Butbutbutbut that's how the pros do it Daystar!

Reminds me of how gay LoL has gotten since I last played. If you don't do everything according to the meta you're doing it wrong. Fuck e-sports.

No items!

Fox only!

Final Destination!

Best game mode ever:

No items!

Captain Falcon only!

Final Destination!

5 stock

FALCON PUNCH ONLY!

Falcon Punch only would require that the players have fun.

Can't be having that now

 

[Fappy]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

Butbutbutbut that's how the pros do it Daystar!

Reminds me of how gay LoL has gotten since I last played. If you don't do everything according to the meta you're doing it wrong. Fuck e-sports.

No items!

Fox only!

Final Destination!

Best game mode ever:

No items!

Captain Falcon only!

Final Destination!

5 stock

FALCON PUNCH ONLY!

Falcon Punch only would require that the players have fun.

Can't be having that now

I think we've actually done something like this before but with Ganondorf in Brawl.

We also do BlazBlue matches of Carl vs. Carl, who is by far the hardest character to do anything with if you don't know how to play him.

Shit is hilarious.

 

[Fishyash]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

Butbutbutbut that's how the pros do it Daystar!

Reminds me of how gay LoL has gotten since I last played. If you don't do everything according to the meta you're doing it wrong. Fuck e-sports.

No items!

Fox only!

Final Destination!

Best game mode ever:

No items!

Captain Falcon only!

Final Destination!

5 stock

FALCON PUNCH ONLY!

Falcon Punch only would require that the players have fun.

Can't be having that now

Why wouldn't it be fun if you weren't limited to falcon punch?

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

Butbutbutbut that's how the pros do it Daystar!

Reminds me of how gay LoL has gotten since I last played. If you don't do everything according to the meta you're doing it wrong. Fuck e-sports.

No items!

Fox only!

Final Destination!

Best game mode ever:

No items!

Captain Falcon only!

Final Destination!

5 stock

FALCON PUNCH ONLY!

Falcon Punch only would require that the players have fun.

Can't be having that now

Why wouldn't it be fun if you weren't limited to falcon punch?

Fun is anathema to the code of the tourney player

 

[Fishyash]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

Butbutbutbut that's how the pros do it Daystar!

Reminds me of how gay LoL has gotten since I last played. If you don't do everything according to the meta you're doing it wrong. Fuck e-sports.

No items!

Fox only!

Final Destination!

Best game mode ever:

No items!

Captain Falcon only!

Final Destination!

5 stock

FALCON PUNCH ONLY!

Falcon Punch only would require that the players have fun.

Can't be having that now

Why wouldn't it be fun if you weren't limited to falcon punch?

Fun is anathema to the code of the tourney player

No it isn't (ಠ3&#3232

Tourney players can have fun! I swear!

(says someone who has never played any fighting game tournament ever)

It's the hype man! It makes it the best thing ever!

 

[subtlefuge]

You will never have fun playing games with your friends again.

Really, I have a weekly or so game with friends, and we're pretty serious. If anyone does stuff like that, they're out. No reason why people should be practicing chain grabs and dash cancels.

 

[Nazulu]

Amazing. A small percentage plays the game seriously and a lot of you see the advanced techniques as the problem.

 

[Al-Bundy-da-G]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

He wouldn't do it if it wasn't effective. He's playing to win. No reason to hate him for it.

For the same reason Wesker in UMvC3 is effective.

Doesn't mean it's not cheap as fuck

You remember Cyrax's grab from MK3? Once he grabs you there's no escape. Just two straight minutes of you screaming at the screen while your asshole friend powerbombs you over and over again.. Which was me 99% of the time...

 

[WhiteTiger225]

Ew, chain grabs and wavedashing.

Just the kind of Smash Bros player I despise.

FINAL DESTINATION

Wave Dashing, Chain Grabs? Yeah they may be bug exploits, but they're used by PROS.. but fuck you if you play the game with options that were meant to be used like items, characters, or FUN D:<

 

[WhiteTiger225]

Looks like competitive Smash players get a lot of hate. These guys simply enjoy playing this way, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I understand there are assholes who try to force everything unto you, but they are just a vocal minority in a fine community.

Anyway, no Smash thread is complete without:

WHERE YOU AT?!

That video made tourney goers even less likable. May they never breed... which I'm assured they will not.