zerg comparrison sc1 and sc2

[DarkDain]

Hehe actually seen phoenix own hydra en mass before, they have to outnumber them of course but they're losses will be very small. Zergling used to be great VS buildings in sc1, but bunkers have gained bonuses since then. Also it was back entrance, single bunker holding off a horde, reminds me of a flash game.

-_-

Then whoever was playing the Zerg had no idea what he was doing. All you have to do is quick ID the Phoenix that is holding the Hydra aloft, concentrate fire on him, wash rinse repeat.

Besides, if a Zerg player is out-massed, he's doing something either very odd or very wrong.

The replay in question probably inspired alot of toss players to use the phoenix in new ways. See, you dont just lift one unit at a time, 20 phoenix can lift 8-10 hydra at once and kill them all while barely being scratched, its not one phoenix lift and the rest shoot, you use half to lift all the enemies and focus fire them. The phoenix are fast enough to pick fights with smaller hydra groups anyways, they mostly did drone harass. Both were good players too, naturally. Pro-toss vs nub-zerg wouldnt be fun to watch.

 

[blankedboy]

That's the problem. Blizzard tried to make it balanced, but Zerg are only effective if the opponent doesn't have some better-than-poor defense in their base. By the time you can amass a huge swarm, their defense will be good enough to completely destroy the attack.

Build faster.

That's literally how the Zerg counter base defense. If they build defense structures, they're lacking in units. Come in while they're defenses are building and you will tear through their base.

Yeah, but rushing is just cheap and easily countered. By the time the enemy has, say, a Photon Cannon, then the'll already have enough defense to counter it. Before then, even worker units will take out a rush that small.

 

[Nouw]

I can't believe Blizzard made the Zerg even less powerful than in the first game.
Massing Zerglings never works if the opponent has some turrets or Seige tanks, Hydralisks never work if they have any decent anti-ground units, Mutas never work if they have halfway-decent air defense, and Ultras just take too long to get.

All the opponent needs is some measley all-round defense, then the Zerg team is fucked.

What do you mean by Turrets? If you mean the Turrets from the Raven, that's quite further up in the Tech Tree, an easy Zergling Mass in the early course of the game should incinerate the Marines or whatever they have.

That is why you should make a balanced army. Include Roaches, they can kick ass if used well.

By turrets, I mean sunken/spore colonies, bunkers, photon cannons, pretty much any building that can attack.

I can't believe Blizzard made the Zerg even less powerful than in the first game.
Massing Zerglings never works if the opponent has some turrets or Seige tanks, Hydralisks never work if they have any decent anti-ground units, Mutas never work if they have halfway-decent air defense, and Ultras just take too long to get.

All the opponent needs is some measley all-round defense, then the Zerg team is fucked.

If that is actually true, then it will be fixed in a patch. Balance is the keystone of Starcraft's success.

That's the problem. Blizzard tried to make it balanced, but Zerg are only effective if the opponent doesn't have some better-than-poor defense in their base. By the time you can amass a huge swarm, their defense will be good enough to completely destroy the attack.

Bunkers? Get heaps of zerglings and roaches.

 

[Agayek]

Yeah, but rushing is just cheap and easily countered. By the time the enemy has, say, a Photon Cannon, then the'll already have enough defense to counter it. Before then, even worker units will take out a rush that small.

If you can't get out 6 zerglings in the time it takes someone to build a photon cannon or 4+ marines, you're doing it wrong. There's no other way around it. All it takes is 6 'lings for a very effective early game rush. It's likely you won't outright end the game, but all you have to do is take out at least 4 of their workers and you come out way ahead. It will set them back hugely while you're still churning out drones/more 'lings and set you up for a win in the near future.

 

[The Madman]

I once watched a player annihilate my two allies using nydus canals, sneaking around their token Terran defenses and completely annihilating them from behind with a wave of zerg that literally overran their colonies in seconds. It was... beautiful. Made me want to learn how to play Zerg better! Saved the replay just to see how the guy pulled it off, and it was glorious to behold.

Still ended up winning, because that Zerg players other two allies kinda sucked and dragged him down. But I'll be damned if he nearly won the match solo, one versus three.

Of course I'm bronze ranking and whatnot, hardly expert. Everyone who's a Starcraft pro is probably shaking their heads at my post right now and whispering 'that poor, poor noob' as they prepare to write a scathing reply. But damn it all, it was COOL!

 

[Azure Sky]

Well, being a Protoss player, both in the original and in #2, I have noticed that Terran are indeed much stronger than in #1, particularly their early game is devastating with the introduction of Light armor vs Heavy armor (I'm looking at you Marauders & Helions)

Where as I have noticed that Zerg are a little weaker than the original, the only real strats that they have early on is.. Roaches? I mean Lings don't work past the first 5-7 minutes of the game. =(

 

[SnwMan]

Zerg are actually quite similar in how they play from sc1 to sc2, yes the units are different, and a few of them have been totally changed, and a few new ones have been added, but the core of the zerg remains the same.

 

[Azure Sky]

I once watched a player annihilate my two allies using nydus canals, sneaking around their token Terran defenses and completely annihilating them from behind with a wave of zerg that literally overran their colonies in seconds. It was... beautiful. Made me want to learn how to play Zerg better! Saved the replay just to see how the guy pulled it off, and it was glorious to behold.

Still ended up winning, because that Zerg players other two allies kinda sucked and dragged him down. But I'll be damned if he nearly won the match solo, one versus three.

Of course I'm bronze ranking and whatnot, hardly expert. Everyone who's a Starcraft pro is probably shaking their heads at my post right now and whispering 'that poor, poor noob' as they prepare to write a scathing reply. But damn it all, it was COOL!

I believe that Protoss can perform a similar (And possibly superior) tactic with Warp in.

 

[The Madman]

I believe that Protoss can perform a similar (And possibly superior) tactic with Warp in.

They can indeed, and it is easier too. Nydus canal can only be built on creep so the zerg player had to sneak an overlord in there to lay down just enough before getting shot out of the sky. Protoss just gotta show up!

But when Protoss do it it's lame. Zerg? Bloody awesome. Big difference.

 

[SnwMan]

umm nydus canal isn't in sc2 lol, its nydus worm and it doesn't need creep, unless of course your talking about sc1.

 

[Azure Sky]

I believe that Protoss can perform a similar (And possibly superior) tactic with Warp in.

They can indeed, and it is easier too. Nydus canal can only be built on creep so the zerg player had to sneak an overlord in there to lay down just enough before getting shot out of the sky. Protoss just gotta show up!

But when Protoss do it it's lame. Zerg? Bloody awesome. Big difference.

Actually, Nydus only needs Sight now, not creep.
The Protoss tactic is generally more effective, as they can push for as long as their resources hold out and as hard as they have warp gates.

It's more of a case that the zerg need to have a loaded Nydus ready, pop the exit where they want it, wait for it to build and then wait for the units inside to come out single file.

Protoss need to rock up with a prism, activate it (2 seconds?) and start en-mass warp ins that take a matter of seconds.

The issue is that both the Protoss and Terran got massive gameplay upgrades while the Zerg are much of the same as they were.

 

[The Madman]

umm nydus canal isn't in sc2 lol, its nydus worm and it doesn't need creep, unless of course your talking about sc1.

Nydus Worm, you're right, just got the names mixed up. And apparently that player still thought they needed creep since that's what he used and as a result so did I. Still badass though. >.>

Jeez, everyone's a critic!

Actually, Nydus only needs Sight now, not creep.
The Protoss tactic is generally more effective, as they can push for as long as their resources hold out and as hard as they have warp gates.

It's more of a case that the zerg need to have a loaded Nydus ready, pop the exit where they want it, wait for it to build and then wait for the units inside to come out single file.

Protoss need to rock up with a prism, activate it (2 seconds?) and start en-mass warp ins that take a matter of seconds.

The issue is that both the Protoss and Terran got massive gameplay upgrades while the Zerg are much of the same as they were.

All entirely accurate, I'm sure. Still doesn't change that a Nydus Worm is more badass. I mean honestly: A Massive worm bursting from the ground and spewing out an army of zerg? It's just... poetic! If poetry were creepy and awesome that is. Protoss just sorta 'zoop' and that's it. Not so poetic.

 

[Fat Hippo]

From my experience watching my brother play Zerg (He's in platinum and diamond leagues, so pretty good) there are several ways for zerg to win:
1. Early rush, doesn't work well often, but if you micro it well you can do enough economic damage to make the rest of the game a formality.
2. Harass: Nydus Worms/Mutas. Again the goal is to kill enough of his workers to throw him out economically. You don't always have to go for his main! In fact, by the time you do this, his main's mineral count will be far lower, and if you pull this off effectively and take his expansion, he'll be totally starved.
3. MACRO! Especially against a Terran player, it's easy for the Zerg to get map control, and while he's stuck inside his heavily defended base, you grab expansions and lots of them. With 4 bases, you can pump out oh so many units. A Terran ball may kick ass, but that won't matter when you have twice as many units as he does!

They can indeed, and it is easier too. Nydus canal can only be built on creep so the zerg player had to sneak an overlord in there to lay down just enough before getting shot out of the sky.

Not true, you don't need to make creep, you just need sight. If he has sight, he can build a nydus worm ANYWHERE he wants to, and that's why it kicks ass. In fact he can build several if he needs to get his units through quicker, they're pretty cheap.

 

[Azure Sky]

1. Early rush, doesn't work well often, but if you micro it well you can do enough economic damage to make the rest of the game a formality.
2. Harass: Nydus Worms/Mutas. Again the goal is to kill enough of his workers to throw him out economically. You don't always have to go for his main! In fact, by the time you do this, his main's mineral count will be far lower, and if you pull this off effectively and take his expansion, he'll be totally starved.

The problem is that with the addition of Terran Reapers, Terran players can do this faster, easier, with less units as well as spending less resources. (Believe me, I am sick of spending several hundred minerals just to get cannons in my mineral lines to fend off the bloody things! >.<)

 

[blankedboy]

Yeah, but rushing is just cheap and easily countered. By the time the enemy has, say, a Photon Cannon, then the'll already have enough defense to counter it. Before then, even worker units will take out a rush that small.

If you can't get out 6 zerglings in the time it takes someone to build a photon cannon or 4+ marines, you're doing it wrong. There's no other way around it. All it takes is 6 'lings for a very effective early game rush. It's likely you won't outright end the game, but all you have to do is take out at least 4 of their workers and you come out way ahead. It will set them back hugely while you're still churning out drones/more 'lings and set you up for a win in the near future.

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

 

[Azure Sky]

Yeah, but rushing is just cheap and easily countered. By the time the enemy has, say, a Photon Cannon, then the'll already have enough defense to counter it. Before then, even worker units will take out a rush that small.

If you can't get out 6 zerglings in the time it takes someone to build a photon cannon or 4+ marines, you're doing it wrong. There's no other way around it. All it takes is 6 'lings for a very effective early game rush. It's likely you won't outright end the game, but all you have to do is take out at least 4 of their workers and you come out way ahead. It will set them back hugely while you're still churning out drones/more 'lings and set you up for a win in the near future.

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

Not to mention that Lings are the most inferior combat unit in the game now.

A Marine squad is quite capable of besting a group of lings twice in number.
Zealots even more so, being able to best them 3 if not 4-5 to 1.

 

[Agayek]

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

Your original complaint was "Zerg can't win". Then when I suggested a strategy that enables the Zerg to win, you say it's cheap and no one should ever do it. There's an endless cycle here somewhere.

You have to play to each race's strength if you want to win. Believe it or not, the Zerg's main strength is the ability to churn out large numbers of units very quickly. Not rushing is antithetical to the whole concept behind the Zerg. You're never going to win trying to out-tech Protoss or even Terrans, it's just not gonna happen. You have to hit them as quickly as possible, as relentlessly as you can, otherwise you will lose.

 

[dawdarsd]

6-ling rushes are the cheapest strategy in the game, if you can even call them a strategy.
It's like starting a game of Tag with THRETWONEGOYOUREIT!!! and instantly tagging the person next to it. Sure, you win, but it's just pathetic and takes no skill whatsoever.

Your original complaint was "Zerg can't win". Then when I suggested a strategy that enables the Zerg to win, you say it's cheap and no one should ever do it. There's an endless cycle here somewhere.

You have to play to each race's strength if you want to win. Believe it or not, the Zerg's main strength is the ability to churn out large numbers of units very quickly. Not rushing is antithetical to the whole concept behind the Zerg. You're never going to win trying to out-tech Protoss or even Terrans, it's just not gonna happen. You have to hit them as quickly as possible, as relentlessly as you can, otherwise you will lose.

that's what i like about the zerg theyre efficient,cold blooded,primitive badasses

 

[Azure Sky]

You have to play to each race's strength if you want to win. Believe it or not, the Zerg's main strength is the ability to churn out large numbers of units very quickly. Not rushing is antithetical to the whole concept behind the Zerg. You're never going to win trying to out-tech Protoss or even Terrans, it's just not gonna happen. You have to hit them as quickly as possible, as relentlessly as you can, otherwise you will lose.

I'll agree to this, I still have major issues with a good Zerg early rush, they do get the fastest mass of advanced units (Roaches) as well.

But I will admit, it is a lot easier to deal with Zerg rushing in #2 then it was in the original, Blizz didn't scale them up quite to the same level as the other two.

Making Hydras a later tech didn't help any either.

 

[Volafortis]

To the people arguing between Nydus and Warp Prisms:
Neither is "better". Nydus Canals can carry your entire active force. You do not need to wait to build it. It's slower to pull off, but it's far more effective the instant the nydus worm emerges. Warp Gates have a fairly long long cooldown, so unless you have 10-15 of them, you cant just have a significant in one warp session. You need to stay there for quite a while before you can attack. Yes, you can load up your warp prism with units to drop to support your warp in force, but you still don't have the numbers that the zerg can have with nydus canals.

Also, Zerg is a very capable race. It is no less powerful than any other. It simply is a harder race to play as, but once you learn to play it, they can be nigh unstoppable.