Zero Punctuation: Borderlands 2

hazabaza1

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Nov 26, 2008
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Nieroshai said:
tmande2nd said:
Good.

Another reason not to buy it.
Except that little to none of what he said was true. Which is sad. All he bothered getting right was the quest tracker.
Because, you know, opinions can be wrong!

Jesus. These kinds of responses make me hate when people review popular games negatively, not because I like the games (and I do like Borderlands 2, a fair bit), but because people jump in and try to justify someone not liking their precious new game.

Psychotic said:
Keep in mind that Yahtzee has already expressed some distaste in the entire genre when he's reviewed similar games, the earliest being Diablo 3.
I imagine that the first time he expressed distaste with the genre was in his Torchlight 1, or even Borderlands 1 review.
 

Feylynn

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I personally thought they improved basically every aspect of the game.
Better UI (Scary that what we have here is 'better' if not quite enough... But better.)
More interesting guns, shields, class mods, characters, quests, jokes, main story, setting, enemy types, boss fights.
Lovely field of view settings, 4 player vehicles on release, better character customization, more distinct playstyle options in the talent tree, ladders that don't warp you to some distant nether dimension before allowing you to climb them.

I really didn't much like the first beyond "Hey some friends are shooting things I'll join them".

Though without 2-3 people to fill out your game I admit it wouldn't be any where near as fun. You also have to actually enjoy all those beautiful numbers to get very far I'd imagine. I love me some numbers, maybe that's weird.
 

Arakasi

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If a game can be played one player, it deserves to be reviewed as such.
Adding more people may make the game better, but you can say the same thing about poking a corpse with a stick.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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Jandau said:
Falterfire said:
Not surprised here. Borderlands 2 is very much Borderlands 1 but more, so if you didn't like 1, you won't like 2.
You know, people keep saying that, but I'm not seeing it...

I hated the first Borderlands. The game had a cool quirky setting, but didn't do anything with it and the plot pretty much didn't exist. The central mechanic (Diablo-style loot in an FPS) sounded good on paper, but the difference between the various guns was miniscule and it essentially boiled down to slight variations of maybe a dozen guns. Finally, the enemy variety was appalingly bad (the whole "Killing Jason Vorhees over and over and over again" thing). All this resulted in a game with no plot, a boring central mechanic and gameplay that got insanely repetitive very fast.

On the other hand, Borderlands 2 takes all the good ideas and actually does them right. The quirky setting is put to better use, with the various characters interacting with you more, there's a proper plot and it's not even bad, there's an actual villain now and he's one of the more memorable antagonists in recent years. All of it made me want to play just to see what happens next, to hear the jokes, to find out how it plays out.

The guns were improved, with more variety between the manufacturers meaning that the promise from the first game was finally realized - dozens of notably different guns to pick and choose from. There was actual choice now and this made the looting process more fun.

Finally, the enemy variety was increased. Jason got a ton of new friends (like the Nomads and the Goliaths), there are several new enemy sets (the Rats, the Robots, Hyperion Personell) and the combat is more varried overall.

So the lack of plot was replaced with a solid plot and interesting characters, the weak central mechanic was elaborated upon and made interesting and the lack of variety in combat was remedied with, well, variety.

All this resulted in me loving Borderlands 2. I never even finished the first game (got to about 2/3 of the way once by forcing myself) but the sequel kept me playing happily through and I'll be doing my NG+ as soon as I'm done with Torchlight 2.
I agree with all of this. I did like the first game but Borderlands 2 blows it out of the water in every way. Most of Yahtzee's criticisms were just nitpicks and fairly unsubstantial. The only point he made that could really be seen as a huge detriment to enjoyment is that he found it to be boring. Sure the game does take a while to get going (not nearly as long as the first game though) but once it hits its stride, it doesn't let up until the credits roll.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
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hazabaza1 said:
Nieroshai said:
tmande2nd said:
Good.

Another reason not to buy it.
Except that little to none of what he said was true. Which is sad. All he bothered getting right was the quest tracker.
Because, you know, opinions can be wrong!

Jesus. These kinds of responses make me hate when people review popular games negatively, not because I like the games (and I do like Borderlands 2, a fair bit), but because people jump in and try to justify someone not liking their precious new game.
While normally I would agree with you, he's actually speaking mostly the truth. Yahtzee found it boring, that's an opinion. But he really did say some blatantly wrong things. Here's an example:

He doesn't like having to hold x to pick up money and ammo. This was the case in the first game and it was a common complaint. Borderlands 2 addresses this complaint having you pick these items up by simply walking over/near them. I don't know how he could have missed this if he has actually played even remotely far into the game.
 

hazabaza1

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Nov 26, 2008
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Wakikifudge said:
hazabaza1 said:
Nieroshai said:
tmande2nd said:
Good.

Another reason not to buy it.
Except that little to none of what he said was true. Which is sad. All he bothered getting right was the quest tracker.
Because, you know, opinions can be wrong!

Jesus. These kinds of responses make me hate when people review popular games negatively, not because I like the games (and I do like Borderlands 2, a fair bit), but because people jump in and try to justify someone not liking their precious new game.
While normally I would agree with you, he's actually speaking mostly the truth. Yahtzee found it boring, that's an opinion. But he really did say some blatantly wrong things. Here's an example:

He doesn't like having to hold x to pick up money and ammo. This was the case in the first game and it was a common complaint. Borderlands 2 addresses this complaint having you pick these items up by simply walking over/near them. I don't know how he could have missed this if he has actually played even remotely far into the game.
Loot in containers has to be picked up. Only loot dropped from enemies has the auto-pick up thing.

I don't know how you could miss this is you have actually played even remotely far into the game. [sub][sub]:p[/sub][/sub]
 

MHR

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I find gripes with some of the complaints. He says the assault rifle had a small clipsize and a ridiculous reload, but he was obviously using a Jakobs assault rifle. They have really high damage values but the other stats tend to suffer, and it's painfully obvious Yahtzee just went with the highest damage gun he found and got frustrated when it seemed to suck in every other way. Jakobs guns are only good for their revolvers. Their assault rifles suck, and their shotguns also suck because they're all 1-3 shots with ridiculous spread.

I was extremely surprised by his review, and I never really disagreed with his overall impression of any game until just now. However the reasoning is pretty simple. Yahtzee is a twitchy instant-gratification type of gamer, and he says this so himself. Of course doing all this junk seems like accounting to him, see his review of Torchlight one and he says *literally* that.

If you're the type that just wants to shoot and not really worry about the loot, you obviously might take issue with a "shoot and loot."

Obviously yahtzee didn't get why Wilhelm sucked, and I admit even I didn't but still saw how he was part of the trap. I didn't think that Jack nerfing Wilhelm was something that happened though. I can totally see the complain about why we're still called "Vault Hunters" when it makes no damn sense but Jack apparently wants us dead anyway for it.

What someone would see as pointlessly opening tons of boxes, I see as getting all the goodies from an area that other people might miss. There's even a chance of opening a box and finding some of the rare iridium currency, and this is your second greatest source for the currency ahead of looting it from enemies (doesn't happen that often) and behind the slot machines (spits out a ton at a regular pace, but costs money... which you help earn by opening boxes.)

And the cars are not at all hard to control. On the PC version, the car turns to face the direction you're looking with the mouse, and you accelerate or reverse by hitting the forward or back keys. It's the simplest shit in the whole world. It's obviously not designed with controllers in mind though.

I loved this game and It's much better even than Borderlands 1. I played a whole campaign with friends and it was a blast. Now I'm playing through as a single player so I can absorb all the sidequests and REALLY milk everything for loot, and it's STILL really fun. Some people just aren't going to like some games. I don't play fight or dance games because I have no interest in that crap at all. If they made the best game in the world a dance game I probably still wouldn't buy it.
 

BlueWalrus

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Yahtzee, ever heard of this guy?

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/09/18/game-theory-borderlands-2-fails-to-cross-ove/

Because that's exactly how your review sounded. "It's not like game X, therefore it's bad." I don't understand how you can gush about Painkiller, a game that had lots of guns, but bash the hell out of BL2, a game which had lots of guns, good writing, interesting characters and an actually cohesive plot.
The real kicker was when you defined a good sequel as "like the first one but better" and then said "Borderlands 2 is just the first one with more stuff" Really?
 

Dansen

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Mar 24, 2010
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Duffeknol said:
Thank God. Yahtzee still seems to be the only sane person left on earth when it comes to these absolutely putrid games.

I know looking to find your opinion validated on the internet is pretty lame, but it can sure as hell feel satisfying sometimes, especially when half the internet tried to kick you to death if you so much as mumble that you don't like Borderlands because it's repetitive and boring, and that comparing numbers to more numbers shouldn't be anyone's idea of fun.
You mad bro?

Beter yet, have you even played it?
I actually enjoy the setting and its satirical take on a variety of game and story genres.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Yeah, this game felt like an expansion rather than a sequel and it's left me feeling like I deserve more from it, but a few things mentioned I thought were not warranted; like the vehicle handling I think is fine,

was supposed to be easy because it was actually handsome Jack tricking you

And you can track multiple quests (although not a great many) even if there is still back tracking (I personally haven't seen a great deal, no more than Borderlands 1 anyway.

It's a definite improvement over Borderlands 1, but mainly from a technical standpoint. The story and villain are definitely better too, but that's about it.
 

David Simon

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Mar 5, 2011
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Wow.

I normally agree with Yahtzee's reviews on some level, but in this case I have to completely disagree. I've just finished my second playthrough of Borderlands 2 (and have started my third) and am still having great fun with it - it's a huge improvement over the original and a thoroughly entertaining experience.
 

xPixelatedx

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I completely disagree with your opinion about this game, but I also totally understand and respect it. Borderlands and Borderlands 2 are both just not your game. It seems as though you found the loot system tedious, which is like asking someone who hates jumping to play Mario. Borderlands is for the kind of people who would be bored just mindlessly shooting; people who want to do something else in a shooting game besides shoot. The loot and stat systems are there to entertain those kinds of people, in the same way the battle systems in RPGs are there to entertain people who are normally bored with hack&slash games. Some people like the stats, the comparing and the wandering, it's a game in of itself to them, and it wonderfully breaks up the monotony of context-less action (Michael bay syndrome).
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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hazabaza1 said:
Wakikifudge said:
hazabaza1 said:
Nieroshai said:
tmande2nd said:
Good.

Another reason not to buy it.
Except that little to none of what he said was true. Which is sad. All he bothered getting right was the quest tracker.
Because, you know, opinions can be wrong!

Jesus. These kinds of responses make me hate when people review popular games negatively, not because I like the games (and I do like Borderlands 2, a fair bit), but because people jump in and try to justify someone not liking their precious new game.
While normally I would agree with you, he's actually speaking mostly the truth. Yahtzee found it boring, that's an opinion. But he really did say some blatantly wrong things. Here's an example:

He doesn't like having to hold x to pick up money and ammo. This was the case in the first game and it was a common complaint. Borderlands 2 addresses this complaint having you pick these items up by simply walking over/near them. I don't know how he could have missed this if he has actually played even remotely far into the game.
Loot in containers has to be picked up. Only loot dropped from enemies has the auto-pick up thing.

I don't know how you could miss this is you have actually played even remotely far into the game. [sub][sub]:p[/sub][/sub]
He made it sound like you had to press X for ALL drops but I'll give you this one.

How about this: he complains about the enemy variety in the first game and rightly so. You fought about 5 different enemy types for most of the game. He then says that this is the same case for the second game. Borderlands 2 has a massive variety of enemies. There around triple the enemy types and the old ones have been significantly fleshed out. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

He says that the skills of the Vault Hunters are different superficially from the previous ones but not in any practical way. You don't even need to play the game to see that this is obviously false. Just watch a couple gameplay videos and you will see that all of the Vault Hunter action skills are completely different with the only exception being Axton. But even his turret is waaaaay more useful than Roland's.

He complains about how you were so easily able to defeat Wilhelm even though he crushed the precious Vault Hunters. This is actually explained later in the game and someone else already pointed it out so I'm not going to go into detail.

He also says that most of the missions involve retrieving some piece of equipment that was stolen. Don't know how he came to this conclusion because I can't even think of any missions like this off the top of my head. There are probably a couple but he's blowing it way out of proportion.

I will say that one other thing he got right is that the vehicles handle badly. It's annoying but since driving isn't really a huge part of the game, it doesn't bother me too much.
 

Arcane Azmadi

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To be fair, he's certainly got something when he points out that they reuse the "oh no bandits stole my plot-critical macguffin" story too often and that the interface is STILL rubbish and that it's pretty lame that the original 4 Vault Hunters have to talk about how you're "our only hope" when they (especially Lilith) should be able to turn you inside out with minimum effort. Oh and the endless box-opening IS pretty annoying.

Still, despite its flaws I like Borderlands 2, although strangely I still think I prefer the original.
 

hazabaza1

Want Skyrim. Want. Do want.
Nov 26, 2008
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Wakikifudge said:
I'm not going to try and justify his entire review because there is some stuff he got blatantly wrong, just not everything. But if I must go on about this matter...

Concerning the Wilhelm fight, there may have been justification for what happened but he was still right about it. He did kick the PCs from 1's arses and then you do defeat him in about zero seconds flat. So yeah.

And from what I can remember a fair amount of the sidequests have the whole "go here get this" quest but ever so slightly differently. Like "go here kill these". Same principle, different semantics.
 

Taunta

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Adam Jensen said:
tmande2nd said:
Good.

Another reason not to buy it.
You take ZP seriously? ZP is all about Yahtzee's subjective view of the game and it's supposed flaws taken to an extreme for comedic value.
Welcome to the world of video game reviews. Video game reviews are subjective. Saying a review is "subjective" is not a negative point. There is no such thing as an objective video game review.

Secondly, given the amount of video games that Yahtzee analyzes on a weekly basis, I'd say his opinion has a lot of weight, considering he probably knows a lot more about video game design than I do. Is it still subjective? Obviously. Should you take it with a grain of salt? Yes. Is it okay to disagree with him? Yes. I've disagreed with his opinion several times. But at the same time, reviews are important because I can use them to gauge whether or not I want to pay 60 dollars for a game, when most of them don't have demos.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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hazabaza1 said:
Wakikifudge said:
I'm not going to try and justify his entire review because there is some stuff he got blatantly wrong, just not everything. But if I must go on about this matter...

Concerning the Wilhelm fight, there may have been justification for what happened but he was still right about it. He did kick the PCs from 1's arses and then you do defeat him in about zero seconds flat. So yeah.

And from what I can remember a fair amount of the sidequests have the whole "go here get this" quest but ever so slightly differently. Like "go here kill these". Same principle, different semantics.
I'm assuming that Wilhelm was instructed to lose the fight or at least was modified to be less powerful. Jack wants you to take the powercore so that he can power down Sanctuary's shields. He gets Wilhelm to lose it to you. Obviously he needed to put a notoriously powerful enemy in the way so that the trap would look convincing. They never address this so I can see how people could miss it but it does explain the entire situation.

It's weird because I enjoyed the side quests almost as much as the main quests. Sure there were some filler quests but a lot of them did have you doing fairly unique things (burn down the bandits' volley ball courts). Yes most of them come down to simply killing things but that's what pretty much every shooter does. You either like it or you don't.

I'm glad you agree that he did get some things wrong. I don't think he got everything wrong either and some of his points are simply opinions that you can't call right or wrong.

I think that the main thing it comes down to is that Yahtzee simply doesn't like loot driven games. For him, picking up all of the loot and opening various containers is mindless and boring. For others like me, it's like you are experiencing a mini Christmas after every fight.
 

Taunta

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BlueWalrus said:
Yahtzee, ever heard of this guy?

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/09/18/game-theory-borderlands-2-fails-to-cross-ove/

Because that's exactly how your review sounded. "It's not like game X, therefore it's bad." I don't understand how you can gush about Painkiller, a game that had lots of guns, but bash the hell out of BL2, a game which had lots of guns, good writing, interesting characters and an actually cohesive plot.
The real kicker was when you defined a good sequel as "like the first one but better" and then said "Borderlands 2 is just the first one with more stuff" Really?
Looks like you misunderstood his review. I suggest you watch it again.

He doesn't enjoy Painkiller because it has lots of guns, and on the flip side he doesn't dislike BL2 because it has lots of guns. He said it has lots of guns that feel ineffective. You might want to read this Extra Punctuation of his where it explains what he means by "ineffective". [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/9015-A-Hard-Weapon-Is-Good-to-Find]

Secondly, he didn't define a good sequel as "like the first one but better". He said a good sequel takes a theme or idea from the first one and uses it as a diving board to do something new. A bad sequel wallows around in all the stuff that the original had, basically saying "Well I hope you like the first one, because the sequel is just more of the same!". And he said that BL2 fits solidly in the latter category, being that he thinks it's more of the same.