Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

You would think you didn't fight well, not that "OH! This sheep is obviously ten levels higher than me! I should go find that secret passage no-one ever mentioned and take the stupid dirt path out of town, not the paved road the game started me on!"

Somehow I don't think that would sell very well...

Look, I realize that I'm one of the smug assholes that Yahtzee warned everyone about, but, as I indicated in my last post and several other people have, finding those skeletons was specifically NOT the "paved road the game started me on." In fact, to find them, you have to go hunting around through the buildings and completely ignore the stairs leading UP from the spot where you started next to the guy who tells you that your first objective is UP.

The stupid dirt path (amusingly, it actually IS dirt at first, as opposed to the nicely formed stairs to the burg) is actually the one that leads to the newbie destroying skeletons.

The comment is a more than a little misleading to people who haven't played the game because it actually suggests that the path to the Catacombs, through the skeletons, is clearly the intended path. It isn't. It's not even visible from where the game drops you off after the Asylum, whereas the path to the Burg is clearly visible, about 20 feet away and the guy staring you in the face says something about going up to ring a bell.

Its not misleading at all! You start the game and you have three choices: North, South, and Dennis.

North is through the giant building right in front of you. The one with the several treasure chests of low level potions and food stuff. The one the eye is drawn to instantly because, as previously stated, its a giant building and you character is facing it when gameplay resumes. And when you navigate said building you come to a graveyard, that at first glance is empty, but once you hop down a cliff(one you cannot go up again) the skeletons of Mr. Infinite and his wife, Mrs. Regenerate attack you.

South is the catacombs you were talking about. The one with a horde of reasonable if a little dense zombie like creatures. Ones that if you're careful(As players of the game tell you to be) you can actually beat. And then you, what, you find a locked door made of spikes and failure? So much for that option.

Dennis was the least obvious because its one of those small paths that could easily be mistaken as a texture-still-loading error. Dennis is not a good choice for a game. Maybe half of gamers are too dense to see Dennis, but when I Googled it, there were pages and pages and pages of players who had no idea what to do or how to proceed. and I refuse to believe its because we're all thick.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As a player, you had no direction and no basis from which understand and judge encounters.

Wrong. You had the tutorial level and the most obvious path that leads up towards the Burg to judge encounters and direction.

Who would have guessed you're supposed to run away?!

Common sense. All you have is a broken sword and you think you're supposed to be able to take down something that big?

Usually the first boss is a test of the basic dodge/block/hit/more powerful hit mechanics. Not a beginners trap you're not supposed to fight.

Welcome to Dark Souls.

But my problem is this; I had nothing to compare those skeletons to. They were the first enemies outside the starting area, and its a very difficult game where any monster can kill you if you're not careful.

Again, you had the tutorial level to compare enemies with as well as the similar enemies up the obvious cliff near the bonfire.

I'm not going to go into your first post because I'll just end up repeating a lot of what Alarien said. Almost all of your problems are your own fault, either by not using common sense or not being aware enough of your surroundings. Dark Souls is not to blame, you are.

This is the thing about Dark Souls complainers. Most of their criticisms aren't really valid and are often their own fault. From ignoring the tutorial messages and complaining about there being no tutorial, to wanting a pause button even though there are quite a few ways to "pause" the game. Anyone who expects Dark Souls to baby the player doesn't know the first thing about the game and is in for a rude awakening.

Here's the thing. Its a monster fighting game. You fight monsters. You are a dude whose sole purpose is to fight monsters. And you found a monster. And you're a monster fighter, in a monster fighting game. And you're tell me you're first thought was to run away from the monster, to not fight the monster because the monster is too big?!
God help you if you ever play Shadows of the Colossus - you'll never get anything done!

You used the phrase 'common sense' a lot. I don't think you and I are opperating on the same definition of common. To me, playing as a monster fighter in a monster fighting game, when presented with a monster I would...oh, I don't try, guess! Fight it? Maybe? Perhaps? Possibly?
And that God-awful player run tutorial? The one with the notes 'monster ahead' right before a long, empty hallway with a giant monster standing, ax raised and waiting. Gee! How helpful! Never would have seen him had the Post-It notes not informed me.
But I did enjoy the player distractions where you could summon a proxy player to run in and get instantly killed by archers just so you could run it behind him, hoping he distracted the skeleton archer only to realize there are three more archers you didn't see and good luck dodging that! Oh...good times...

Let me make this clear: If you're playing a game where the joke is beginner's traps and trial/error gameplay...you're not in on the joke. You ARE the joke.

 

[Alarien]

Again, you are being disingenuous and misleading. When you talk about North, you say "hop down a a cliff." What cliff? The one that appears below the locked elevators to the burg? If that's the case, the cliff should have been a clue. If you're talking about passing through the big building that you were referencing, there is no cliff. Just a minor drop off with clearly visible stairs that go right back up to where you started.

The South you are talking about does not go through catacombs. It goes to New Londo, which does have a horde of zombie like creatures, but there is no "beating" them. They don't fight back. I am not sure what you're trying to reference here. Locked door of spikes and failure? That's in the actual catacombs. Your "north" option.

Dennis isn't a small path that is a texture loading error. It is a very obvious staircase going up path right next to your starting area that leads to a very clear and obvious dungeon area. There's even a dead body lying next to it on a well with a bright SHINY "come here and grab me" of 3 humanities. It's like a breadcrumb trail.

I think your frustration colors your hindsight on this. If you would actually load up the game and just look around from Firelink, I think your perspective would change vastly.

 

[WWmelb]

I...really don't agree about the sharing information part. I won't deny that sharing information is important, but I just...I never really found Dark Souls all that hard. I died to the Asylum Demon once, spotted the door ran, I actually was able to get through the graveyard of skeletons and only stopped exploring when I realized the skellies in the catacombs would just keep rebuilding themselves...and I didn't even know how to parry or backstab. Dark Souls is a challenging game, but you just have to approach it...well, tactically. I never looked up any guides or anything, I was just a warrior, who had found the Zweihander, and who just blocked and slashed, I killed the first Black Knight, after two previous tries, by just blocking and slashing.

Dark Souls is challenging but I just...I can't consider it difficult. I even went through the DLC and took down those bosses, I think Manus took me...what three tries? and Kalameet took me five...maybe, I can't quite remember I just know I solo'd them, because I didn't have Xbox live gold at the time. Maybe it's just because I grew up on games with heavy exploration like Metroid or Castlevania, and these are definitely games about exploration but I just...I even found Havel's Armor without looking anything up in guides, so maybe I'm just a really, really weird case.

I'm much like you, only some of the bosses took me a few more tries than they took you, mostly because i'm just not very good lol

But still, Dark and Demon's are my favourite games of the generation, and possibly ever. The only games i've ever felt compelled to get 100%/Platinum Trophy.

Didn't look up a guide until new game plus on my third character, just because i had exhausted all my brain could figure out on its own.

Even then, only things i looked up were how to complete the chains of keeping the priestess alive and the Siegmeyer of Catarina line as i couldn't find all his spawn points.

 

[Alarien]

Silent, you mention trial and error gameplay. Very honestly without making any suggestions about YOU as a gamer (because this video presents two different styles at the beginning and I don't want you to think I'm comparing you... I'm not), I would refer you to the following from Vaati:


Link, I'm really bad at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oYL...w-vl&list=PLWLedd0Zw3c7iIIMT0WQwEVeztYgS4A_tp

This gives a really good commentary on trial and error gameplay. It is usually used as a negative comment by a lot of gamers. While sometimes that might be valid, and not even necessarily bad, a lot of the time, it is used as an excuse.

 

[FYI I Am Some Guy]

-snip-

I thought it was supposed to be more of a design decision to make it so players have to specialize. Unlike, say, Skyrim, where you can change from clanky knights armor and a massive sword to lighter stealth-focused clothes and a bow in literally no time. You could just go to the main menu if you need to take a leak.

 

[CaptOfSerenity]

Never played Dark Souls, but this was one of the funniest reviews he's ever done. Very descriptive, too, with his humor. This is what makes him so good at his job; his comedy is his critique. And when he's on, which is usually, it's clear enough to be funny and insightful.

"stand-up gig at the Nuremberg Trials"

Lost it.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

None of that really sells the game to me.

 

[Lazule]

The Extra Punctuation Article said that it was hard as nails and how he gave up on the game. Thats Dark Souls, it sadly makes new players give up too early on.

Its horribly hard early game if you play it "blind" but get easier late game since you got better equipment and more skilled.

 

[chiggerwood]

No it is not a good design decision. Let's just say, and I'm (not really) just pulling this out of thin air here, there's someone who wants to play this game, but unfortunately they have bowel issues where their bowels don't send a polite message informing them of an incoming movement that needs to be dealt with some time in the next half hour or so, but instead look at the person and say "Time to shit, you got ten seconds. In the chair or on the toilet, doesn't matter to me; this is happening now." Then the whole system just seems like a giant fuck you. Also there is no way I want to deal with fucking griefers while I'm trying to play a single player campaign, in a game that's as about inviting as leather face's family. So yeah the entire online gimmick is awful and should be optional.

Simple. Open the menu and quit the game, stop what you're doing if you're alone in an area (and hollow), or commit suicide and come back for your souls later.

A pause button for Dark Souls would be redundant and harm its immersion. Also, THE ONLINE IS OPTIONAL! You won't ever have to deal with griefers if you stay hollow or play offline.

This is another example of someone who doesn't know enough about Dark Souls to give valid complaints.

First of all I haven't been able to find the offline mode and I just checked again, secondly how exactly is a pause button redundant?

re·dun·dant
riˈdəndənt/
adjective
adjective: redundant

1.not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous.

And how does the ability to pause break immersion? Never once have I ever heard anybody complain about a pause game breaking immersion?

And now let me thoroughly explain my bowels to you. 1/2 of the time when I have a bowel movement it begins with severe cramping, the kind that makes you stop whatever it is that you're doing and forces you to grab your gut, then I have to force myself to get up and hobble to the bathroom as quickly as I can, then I have to take an extremely painful shit that leaves my asshole sore and my forehead sweaty, so quitting is not an option, And that's just one of the health problems that I have. then there's my Multiple Sclerosis which makes my hands shake, my vision blur, gives me headaches, makes me nauseous, and makes me violently and painfully spasm So you'll have to excuse me if I would like a quick and easy pause feature for when my brain (which is currently in the process of self destructing) suddenly decides to malfunction so I don't have to start a fight over.

 

[chiggerwood]

-snip-

You could just go to the main menu if you need to take a leak.

It's not a matter of taking a leak, it's is seriously being crippled in pain a barely making it to the bathroom in time for a painful as hell five minutes half the time. It's like having a perpetual stomach flu. I cannot recall the last time I had a pleasant shit.

 

[Mikejames]

It's nice to see people pointing out that it wasn't necessarily the difficulty that made Dark Souls enjoyable. Once I got past some initial grinding and shamelessly wikied the basic mechanics and arbitrary quest lines, the underlying narrative was able to draw me in.

And don't get me started on the fucking gargoyle bosses on the roof of the undead church (or wherever it was)...

Summon Solaire and apply the lightning powder.

Boom, boss fight over.

Which is where instructions for summoning would have been nice. Those things minced me a dozen times before I looked up that humanity was more than a cosmetic.

 

[KOMega]

You can also "sort of" pause by just standing there and not doing anything. Assuming you are still hollowed and are not immediately fighting something you can just stand where you are and nothing will bother you. If you are humanized, you can also alternatively sign out (thus being offline and immune to all online interactions i.e. invasions. but still able to play the game.)

You can even press the start button if it makes you feel better.

Also I think someone mentioned the Bed of Chaos, you can destroy it's sides with just arrows and standing at the start of that area where no bottomless holes appear. You'll still have to jump for the middle part, but that's it. No need to navigating through that silly maze of bottomless and deadly holes.

 

[Guilen-]

Yahtzee compared Dark Souls to Silent Hill 2. I was waiting for that to happen can't believe you haven't really played it til now. It really is in that rare frequency of games. If the second one can do it as well, or god forbid exceed its predecessor, then... edit: these comments are surprising me... I hate to say it, but almost every complaint I hear I feel like responding to with "uh, actually, just kinda sounds like you were being a dumbass" or "don't be such a wuss, that MAKES it more hardcore intentionally, you aren't getting the vibe". I guess it really IS a kind of niche title. Yahtzee went back on his view of some of the tenants of Demon's Souls because instead of criticizing something that requires your investment to appreciate, he actually went through the experience of how it really works when it's done to a purpose, and in the case of Dark Souls, you're rewarded with a genuine work of art, and your own heightened perception of art's influence (to say nothing of the unique sense of community). It staggers me when people can't see that... but then, I don't really care much for Skyrim. Maybe it's all perspective. Also, anyone criticizing the level design sounds like an old fogey hahaha...

 

[Rabidkitten]

But Yahtzee, you didn't realize.

Spoiler

The story of killing Gwyn to save the world and relight the fire is A LIE!!.

 

[Stabby Joe]

He didn't like Demon's Souls and even wrote an Extra Punctuation elaborating why... yet personally I felt no drastic difference between that and Dark Souls. There are noticeable differences but structurally and mechanically they are very similar. In my opinion even, Dark Souls was actually harder.

Maybe that first instance was really Yahtzee not "getting it", previously brushed off as fan rage at the time.

 

[ZtH]

And how does the ability to pause break immersion? Never once have I ever heard anybody complain about a pause game breaking immersion?

I understand why you don't like Dark Souls, but this actually comes up fairly often. For instance

Spoiler

I've never really liked it when you can go into the menu and use buffs, potions, food, or whatnot and have no time pass in the game. In my mind that really does break my immersion with the world.

 

[[REDACTED]]

Spoiler

But Yahtzee, you didn't realize. The story of killing Gwyn to save the world and relight the fire is A LIE!!.

SPOILER THAT SHIT.

OT: Glad to see that Yahtzee liked it. It seemed like the sort of thing that would be right up his alley, so I was surprised by his earlier Extra Punctuation on it. I wonder if he would change his opinion on Demon'sssss Souls in retrospect.

Edit:

And how does the ability to pause break immersion? Never once have I ever heard anybody complain about a pause game breaking immersion?

I understand why you don't like Dark Souls, but this actually comes up fairly often. For instance

Spoiler

I've never really liked it when you can go into the menu and use buffs, potions, food, or whatnot and have no time pass in the game. In my mind that really does break my immersion with the world.

You can allow the player to pause without allowing them any in-game action. System Shock did it just fine; there's no reason for Dark Souls not to allow such an option when playing offline.

 

[MrDumpkins]

[b/]SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE[/b]

I hate dark souls for the simple fact that you can't pause. Fuck whoever thought that was a good design decision.

I can agree with this.

It's like the designers at FROM have never had to take a piss in their entire lives.

That was one of my most intense moments in dark souls, I had to go to the bathroom while in the lower undead burg, and as I stopped all the assassins busted out through the door, had to fight them but I ran towards all the flame undead, 10 minutes later they were all dead and I got to have the most satisfying piss of my life. That moment could have never happened if there was a pause.

 

[chiggerwood]

And how does the ability to pause break immersion? Never once have I ever heard anybody complain about a pause game breaking immersion?

I understand why you don't like Dark Souls, but this actually comes up fairly often. For instance

Spoiler

I've never really liked it when you can go into the menu and use buffs, potions, food, or whatnot and have no time pass in the game. In my mind that really does break my immersion with the world.

Snrrrrk! Yeah I can see how that can break immersion, I'm just asking for a way to pause the action so I don't needlessly die. I don't mind it if a game makes it nigh impossible to use buffs or healing items in battle, hell to me that's preferable. I'm tired of no challenge RPGs where you're guaranteed to win and be the hero of the day all the while being the most awesomest, most powerful person to ever live ever. Incidentally if anyone knows of such an RPG please tell me what it is... as long as I can pause.