Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

[GeeDave]

VeryOblivious:

Fair game, I took the time to read your reply again, as suggested:

]Yahtzee - either he likes it or not - has become a public figure with a stablished "role". He's somewhat obliged to be harsh. Terran's point isn't that hard to understand

Rightly assuming that Terran's point was "Yahtzee is a sellout", it becomes clear (to me) that the two points you make prior to stating that Terran's point isn't hard to understand, must in theory be backing up his point. Ergo, that is how I came to the conclusion that you saying "has become a public figure" = backing up Terran's point and Terran's point = Yahtzee is a sell out.

I admit that calling you stupid was stupid (You're clearly not. The general grammar and punctuation far surpasses your earlier reply), and you've put back a fierce reply to me there. I apologise for any earlier insults. However, I won't help you get better at English, My days are already too busy

 

[TerraMGP]

Alright alright... one more, then I'm out!

as I have said time and time agian, he is a sellout because he keeps shifting his supposed view for the intention to bash the games. Hes not giving an honest review of the pros and cons as he sees them anymore. People wanted him to start crucifying games and so instead of staying the course and just being honest overall he has been focused more and more on just nailing every game to a tree so people can clap and cheer mindlessly.

Is that really hard to understand?

No, THAT is real easy to understand. The problem with it though... is that it's just your opinion, and you're spewing it out like it's fact. I completely dissagree with it. That doesn't make me right though, it's my opinion that the Yahtzee reviews have really not altered much since the very beginning. Sure he loved Portal and Psychonauts (any others?) and therefore didn't bash them, but have you not ever heard of "exceptions to the rule"?

Learn to type "I believe..." or "It is to my mind that..." or "I think..." and maybe this entire debate will stop.

No, your point is flawed, and I hate when people try to make that 'its just your opinion' Argument. I am arguing a position and an observation, not an opinion, their is a difference. If I was stating opinion I would say I think but I am stating an observation and as such I state it thusly, as for HIS opinion, my whole point is that he is not being true to it as he seems to change it on a whim and with no rhyme or reason other than to be in the perfect position to bash the games in question. Thats my whole problem, My whole observation is that he is NOT in fact stating his opinoin. and please in the future avoid using the cop out "Its all opinion" PC argument. Debates don't work that way.

As for top five, well I can give you a few now. Its more a matter of progression. I think instead of a top five presenting it in kind of a progression things would work better.

In the beginning he starts out to seem more like your typical refined gamer. He had produced some adventure games, very fine ones at that, and seemed to feel that games were indeed art. He noted the good ol days when adventure games were king and when story mattered and talked about how games could be. He often pointed to loving mold-breaking games and even once noted oblivion in passing (by showing the box) as an example of what a game could be.

As he moved on he started to contradict himself, denying his claims that a game should be more art, moving more towards the mainstream more in some places. He still celebrated games like Mario galaxy and no more heroes but at the same time seemed to be kind of shifting around a bit to at times contradict himself (Mass effect being a good example)but at this point he seemed to hold on to his integrety.

And now we get here, to this point where especially recently he has jumped on games and bashed them for the sake of bashing them. I think it started about at SSBB or at least got to the point where it was noticeable, not because of a lack of flaws because the game had those, but becasue about there or perhaps chains of Olympus he starts to just shift who he is. He constantly disagrees both with his previous statements about games and at times his current ones. Still its been gradual overall, but at this point it seems that he is at the point where he is "The exact kind of gamer who would hate this game" and that is the contradiction.

Also its ok GEEdave I understand... sorry I did not explain as well as I thought. but for the record everyone I'm a her... I need to get me an avatar on here. Anyone know where to get a properly sized pic of "Jhoira of Ghitu"?

 

[GeeDave]

So we have observations that differ? Does that not give them the same value as an opinion? I suppose the problems with observations is we're inclined to prove them. Which I really cannot be bothered to do. One line does spring to mind though, and that was when Yahtzee (I forget which video) said something along the lines of him finding it easier to always assume everything is shit until proved otherwise. With this in mind, is it no surprise that you're seeing shifts? If at the beginning he's all for the art... and now suddenly he's 'bashing' it, and same goes with opinions on a game's story... would this not indicate a shift in game, rather than a shift in review methods?

I may need to explain that point... but my lack of factual references is a miss. ie, I can't quote his reviews in which he may be hypocritical. I'm a fan of his reviews... but i'll be damned if I make it a point to remember them in great detail.

So, I suppose if this was that card game I mentioned earlier... this would be where I fold. Now all you need is better cards!

 

[zxpipo7]

Needs more mustache jokes!!!!

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

Needs more mustache jokes!!!!

Needs more JOKES - what happened to the Yahtzee I know and love? If it wasn't for his visuals, I'd have stopped watching by now.

 

[SpiralEater]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Yatzhee is being a hypocrite. He complains with too much dialogue when in fact his games REVOLVE around dialogue. Sure, MGS has tons of it, and it CAN be redundant, but it really just falls into the audience of who wants to play the game. Metal Gear Solid is definitely not for casual, or impatient players.

 

[Whoracle]

Note: An overabundancy of cutscenes ain't art. As well as overly relying on minor details.

Telling a good story is definitely an art form, but no matter how good the story, if told incorrectly, it's simply bad.
The conception of a story and the storytelling are totally different things, although they ought to go hand in hand.
There's a german saying - I don't know if there's an equivalent in english - that roughly translates to "[$SPECIFIC_PERSON] could tell me the phone book, and it would still be interesting." That's good storytelling, no matter how bad the story. In games, the story is told through a variety of media:

- Visual: The Graphics and the detail level thereof
- Through Audio: Tthe background music for setting the mood
- Through whatever transpires during gameplay. Every kill in an FPS is a (very minor) Part of the story, for example
- Through Text/Cutscenes: Dialogue and Cutscenes carry the rest of the story.

If all of that works well together, you get great storytelling. If some things get neglected in favor of others, you get bad storytelling, except when the favored medium is executed exceptionally well, which in Yahtzee's opinion it wasn't.
And today there is a trend to either ignore storylines and storytelling altogether or to stretch the story to unbelievable lengths in games. Apparently, the latter is what happened to MGS4.

 

[Monokeros]

Me, myself being a 100% fanboy for MGS4 was DESPERATLEY waiting for Yahtzee to tear Metal Gear a new one based on the storyline and clunky controls that dont honestly fit in with the title. Did I get what I wanted? YES Am I dissapointed or going to complain about how biased his review is? NO Because I took a step back a realized that while I loved the game, characters and miles of confusing storyline (there are things I haven't figured out that imagine that) to even write fanfiction about it(dont jump to conclusions not THAT kind) I fully understood and enjoyed his review. So as speaking from a honest and somewhat sane, though sane enough to spend time writing stories that makes the whole MGS stories more confusing, I thouroughly enjoyed this review. Yathzee came and delievered exactly what I saw were the flaws in the gameplay, hell in MGS3 when youre crouching, to shoot a little above the ground you have to press R1 (even if youre already in First person view with a sniper rifle) hold down R2 and L2 like your life depends on it (because its 'pressure sensitive') and THEN press square, and thats not counting if you want to AIM while doing all of that! (This is MGS3 controls of course theyre slightly improved but case in point) The game has flaws, and all you fanboys who love MGS is because of its deep intricate story, but this is also why some people never will come to love it. *exhale*
~end rant~

 

[TerraMGP]

Note: An overabundancy of cutscenes ain't art. As well as overly relying on minor details.

Telling a good story is definitely an art form, but no matter how good the story, if told incorrectly, it's simply bad.
The conception of a story and the storytelling are totally different things, although they ought to go hand in hand.
There's a german saying - I don't know if there's an equivalent in english - that roughly translates to "[$SPECIFIC_PERSON] could tell me the phone book, and it would still be interesting." That's good storytelling, no matter how bad the story. In games, the story is told through a variety of media:

- Visual: The Graphics and the detail level thereof
- Through Audio: Tthe background music for setting the mood
- Through whatever transpires during gameplay. Every kill in an FPS is a (very minor) Part of the story, for example
- Through Text/Cutscenes: Dialogue and Cutscenes carry the rest of the story.

If all of that works well together, you get great storytelling. If some things get neglected in favor of others, you get bad storytelling, except when the favored medium is executed exceptionally well, which in Yahtzee's opinion it wasn't.
And today there is a trend to either ignore storylines and storytelling altogether or to stretch the story to unbelievable lengths in games. Apparently, the latter is what happened to MGS4.

To paraphrase what someone said to me, thats more opinion. Personally I think that such games are very interesting.

But that's neither here nor there. the point is that he DID make games that were very cutscene and Duologue heavy. The games being a diffrent genre is no justification of that. Its hypocritical of him to criticize a game for reliance on cut scenes and even more so when the things he claims are wrong with the games are found in his own works.

 

[Hey Joe]

Waiting for Yahtzee to review Ninja Gaiden II.

Go on, I dare ya.

 

[Fire Daemon]

I didn't get the Deus Ex Machina joke at the end. Can someone explain?

I liked this review, funny as always and very informative and yay for T-Shirts.

 

[Kaiolas]

Whats with the commercials at the end???? But I want I shirt. He should have a tshirt contest giveaway Exxxxtravaganza.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

What we could be seeing here is his exposure to more and more games of varying styles, including genres he abhors (apparently assigned by the cruel, heartless Escapist taskmasters if popular legend it to be believed), changing him. Could he be changing on purpose? Of course! We can perceive the change, and guess at the reasons, but to claim our opinion on it as truth is presumptious at best.

It could be put forth that his early works do not accurately represent his true opinions, and that he was pandering to a different set of masses (i.e. selling out, just to some other group). Only now that he's found comfort in not being alone in his opinions is he truly letting it all out. No more or less likely given what can be observed.

As for me, I see no change. Same videos, different viewpoints - can we live with that? Or will it be necessary for some of us to 'sell out', and chage our opinion?

 

[YYZed]

lmao i left played some frisbee gold with friends came back took a nap and got back on and you guys are still arguing and TerraMGP oh god just leave .

 

[Churchman]

I didn't get the Deus Ex Machina joke at the end. Can someone explain?

I liked this review, funny as always and very informative and yay for T-Shirts.

I think he was saying how many times he counted a Deus Ex Machina in the plot of MGS4

 

[GeeDave]

If I may intervene yet again:

But that's neither here nor there. the point is that he DID make games that were very cutscene and Duologue heavy. The games being a diffrent genre is no justification of that. Its hypocritical of him to criticize a game for reliance on cut scenes and even more so when the things he claims are wrong with the games are found in his own works.

I've got quite a nice piece of ammunition for this, as I have made a game myself... intended to be a 3d point and click adventure, that unfortunately required too much code to really finish (and i'm an artist, not a coder)... the "game" and content itself can be viewed at http://www.WhittigersTale.com juuust in case you don't believe me.

My point being though, that much like my game, and almost every art piece I've ever made... I still find flaws in it. In the same way that I imagine Yahtzee doesn't think his games are perfect. But we learn by doing... I know that the art style of Whittigers Tale is not to my liking, because I spent 12 weeks developing it. Therefore... if someone else brought out something similar *cough*Jack Keane*cough*, then I am allowed to say it's poor. Regardless if my game featured similar traits! (for the record, I did NOT copy Jack Keane, I first heard about it about 2 weeks prior to my deadline, and was originally excited to try it out)

... where was I? Ah yes... So what if Yahtzee's games feature content that he hates. That's perfectly normal! Plus you're hardly taking the complicatons of creating a 'good' game into account. Yahtzee is but one man, I am just one man (and my game reaks of failure)... but the developers behind the game's he reviews... they are many, many men. And should be able to do "better" than what Yahtzee alone can do. (in reference to the "too much dialogue" comment)

 

[Whoracle]

To paraphrase what someone said to me, thats more opinion. Personally I think that such games are very interesting.

But that's neither here nor there. the point is that he DID make games that were very cutscene and Duologue heavy. The games being a diffrent genre is no justification of that. Its hypocritical of him to criticize a game for reliance on cut scenes and even more so when the things he claims are wrong with the games are found in his own works.

That's why i differred between storyline and storytelling. I am far from saying that the MGS4 storyline is bad. But the storytelling seems to be. And no, storytelling rules ain't opinion. Writing actually follows guidelines that you can stray from, but never completely abandon if you want to tell a story successfully.

And as for him being a hypocrite:
Yes, his games may be cutscene- and dialogue-heavy, but this doesn't mean he neglects the rest of the storytelling staples. If MGS had roughly the same precentual focus on each medium, then I doubt he would have said anything about it. But MGS seems to nearly have abandoned the rest and focuses too much (!) on the cutscenes, and does them in a bad way. Not from the technical standpoint, mind you, but from a storytelling POV.

As to better show you the difference, let me give you a (maybe far-fetched) example:
You and two friends stand at the edge of a cliff.
Your first friend refuses to lean out to watch the view.
You lean a little bit forward to look down, and get a breathtaking view (leaning tower in yosemite, anyone?). You go home enriched by this experience.
Your second friend leans further, and falls. He dies.

Now, who's off better? All of you tried to achieve the same thing: Get the view. The first wasn't going to leave secure grounds, so he missed out.
You took the risk, but did so with a measure of care. You got the view and survived.
The second friend took the risk, but went overboard with it.
#1 is storyless games
#2 (you) would be the ideal game
#3 seems is what MGS seems to be: Good intentions, but bad execution

Edit: Argh! Better start to quote, so people know who I'm talking to/what I'm talking about.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Yatzhee is being a hypocrite. He complains with too much dialogue when in fact his games REVOLVE around dialogue. Sure, MGS has tons of it, and it CAN be redundant, but it really just falls into the audience of who wants to play the game. Metal Gear Solid is definitely not for casual, or impatient players.

While I totally agree it's not for the impatient player, I totally object to Hideo's underlying theory that people who aren't into his games are casual players. I've been playing games for longer than he's been making them. I can accept the fact they're not to my tastes; so should he and anyone else who tries to sell me the MGS = hardcore gamer line.

 

[Cheekyass123]

what the fuck. yahtzee dunno whats hes talkin bout. well.. he does. but the game is incredible. the story is not badly written. its the greatest ever. heh. whatever. it doesnt matter. i love it and i dont give a shit what yahtzee said.

 

[John Funk]

TerraMGP, I'm not entirely sure how he's 'flip flopped'... at all. He's complained about poor gameplay:cutscene ratio in tons of games before MGS4 - Bioshock, Mass Effect, to name a few. The fact that he didn't like it in MGS4, the worst offender of them all? ...that's being CONSISTENT.

Taking the control out of players' hands for huge chunks of time is what he razzes on, not necessarily just the inclusion of a story in a game. And heck, it's not like this was even a 100% bad review anyway, like you're making it out to be. He said he liked the characters, and the gameplay was adequate if cluttered.

Show me what was inconsistent in this review compared to his past ones. Because as far as I can see, you're simply wrong.