Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

SloughFeg

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Jun 29, 2008
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It might reach 1000, I just hope it's not this same argument going back and forth between Tempdude0 and TerraMGP for those next 200 posts. Maybe it's time to just agree to disagree?
I think people get too upset by Yahtzee's opinion sometimes. That's all it is after all, a personal opinion.
 
Feb 15, 2008
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I love fanboiz, I really do. They make the Internet interesting. Brawl fanboiz just ramble on endlessly like idiots, and MGS fanboiz try to sound intellegent while rambling on like idiots. I sense another mailbag showdown soon.
 

tooktook

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Feb 13, 2008
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Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.
 

TerraMGP

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Jun 25, 2008
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No, you don't make sense Tempdude0, normally I don't ind text walls but yours are, quite Ironically, hard to read. Still even from what I gather each time I can't agree with you. You do realize that words don't always adhere strictly to what is in the dictionary don't you? That sometimes they have diffrent definitions in diffrent ones? Your clinging to one definition as the right one and with some of these things, especially the word 'Fluff' I'm sorry but your definition of it is not the only potential one.

But AGAIN, YOU did not care that MGS3 was long because it was more 'punchy' than say 4... well thats YOUR preference for writing. That does not make it bad it just means that you don't like it. Thats perfectly ok but its not bad writing simply because of that. Your talking about 'Punchy' like its a qualifier for good writing because of the definition you put forward before. Writing can easily be too 'punchy', heck thats why the few times I have had to read the sports page I wanted to go to the news paper office and beat the guy. I realize that their is more to good writing than that, but good writing does not have to just keep spoon feeding you main plot and yanking you along so you don't notice the flaws.

But in the end, from reading what you have written I just can't help getting frustrated. This whole "suspension of disbelief" crap is again your own personal issue and not an issue with the writing. Everything you have argued thus far has been subjective personal opinion. You don't deal with character development and you only have a PERSONAL issue with the plot development. I admit like any story their are some plot holes but they really do alot to explain them and do it fairly well, as well as making everything tie in. I don't see anything at all wrong with the writing.

And for the record, you really need to stop being so OCD about definitions, and YES I say OCD because you stopped being just Anal about it a long time ago. You know what I am trying to say, you understand the meaning behind the words, quit trying to make your point with semantics and obsessing over it please. How about with your next post you just do what you say MGS4 should do and make a simple, concise, clean post, not a text wall as you seem to muddle those, that in one or two paragraphs simply talks only about why the 'punchy' writing your looking for and why what is basically the problem with all science fiction makes it bad writing.

Now if you will excuse me I have an Ancient Sith cruiser wreck to be semi-useful in.
 

agerdemon

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Feb 14, 2008
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tooktook said:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.
Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!
 

Tempdude0

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Jun 27, 2008
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Don't feed the trolls agerdemon...Well, at least not unless you find humor in it. Besides, his post is so ridiculous it's either incredibly witty commentary on the people in the thread or a very, very stupid person. I almost hope it's the former.

To SloughFeg, I'll agree to disagree when a certain someone decides to read what I've written in its entirety. Since that has yet to happen I intend to keep on a goin'.

Terra, that was going out to everyone other than you. I thought that was fairly clear, but I suppose I need to explain everything to you.

Yes, yes those words do strictly adhere to what's in the dictionary. If they didn't they'd have slang uses...They don't.

It...Did you even read the definition of punchy? I even included it for you terminally lazy people who can't seem to look things up. A writing cannot be "too" punchy. That defies logic. Once again you've yet to actually read what I've written, or in this case what Miriam-Webster has written.

Uh huh. Sure it is. You keep on trucking and think whatever you want to think. If you keep banging your head against that wall of reason you may just topple it one day. The term "suspension of disbelief" exists specifically to describe both the inherent fantastic elements in a work and the point at which a work goes beyond what it's established as the limits of it's reality. If you prefer, I could always say MGS "jumped the shark" to a certain extent. Or "nuked the fridge". I like that one because it involved an atomic bomb.

Semantics, eh? My insistence that you not sound like an idiot when writing is semantics?...Yeah, it is to a certain extent, but if you can't use a word properly, avoid it. Your point becomes muddled amidst all the terrible misuses. I can't be bothered to figure out which words you're using correctly/incorrectly. If you've got a point to make, make it without relying on other people to wade through your stupidity. I may be a rant 'o matic, but at least my points are clear and easy to follow. Hence the numbered lists I was using for a little while. It didn't get any easier than that, and yet you proclaim to not be able to follow my statements. What's more clear and concise than an itemized list?

And as I said, I won't be doing that summation until you can get off your ass and actually read through a whole statement. I find it hard to believe you can understand Kojimas writing but get lost in my little rants. Either you can't have understood Kojima or you're being purposefully obtuse.

Oh, and as for OCD "a person who shows signs of infatuation or fixation with a subject/object, or displays traits such as perfectionism, does not necessarily have OCD, a specific and well-defined condition." I've let some of your terrible language skills slide, I just focus on the ones that are integral to your "points" such as "punchy" and "dry" writing. See, this is why I opted not to go into this. To differentiate between anal and OCD, you need a grasp of subtlety which you lack in the extreme. That aside, I'm merely being insistent, a time honored debating method.

Oh, and nice little reference there. Perhaps we shall talk of the Sun Crusher as well, and the Kessel Run in which smugglers attempt to ferry illegal goods while vying for the fastest time. Perhaps I shall go read of Vuffi-Ra and his space faring people...You've already illustrated you know jack about the expanded universe. You can give it up now.
 

sky14kemea

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Jun 26, 2008
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wow i think this has the most replies ive seen yet o_O
XD ive had a thought, you can knock out kajima the same why im planning to kill george bush, with a pillow fight, but you fill your pillow with rocks, but i dont have the x files box set so can i lend that off someone please?
 

tooktook

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Feb 13, 2008
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agerdemon said:
tooktook said:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.
Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!
No, I'm not comparing Yahtzee to Hitler. I was joking. I do apologize. My humor seems to be lost on a lot of people. The idea of comparing Yahtzee to Hitler is so ridiculous I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Come on, did you honestly think I was being serious? I have enough faith in humanity to believe no-one would make that statement and be serious.
 

agerdemon

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Feb 14, 2008
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tooktook said:
agerdemon said:
tooktook said:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.
Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!
No, I'm not comparing Yahtzee to Hitler. I was joking. I do apologize. My humor seems to be lost on a lot of people. The idea of comparing Yahtzee to Hitler is so ridiculous I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Come on, did you honestly think I was being serious? I have enough faith in humanity to believe no-one would make that statement and be serious.
Soz it is difficult to know whats humour and what isn't when it's just written down. I still think that Yahtzee is completely justified to make the comments he has.
 

Arntor

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Feb 5, 2008
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TerraMGP said:
I know exactly what fluff is, I am using it correclty.
So ehm, what definition of "fluff" are you using?

See, when I think "fluff", I think

1. Unnecessary information with little substance

2. Cotton

3. Bunnies

A little elaboration would help things get on the same page, if tempdude0's text walls don't completely take up all the room that is (ba dup tish). For discussion's sake it'd be more preferable if those participating would settle on a single definition of the words being used. In my opinion, the dictionary definition of a word or at the very least, the slang terms that are known universally(which likely means that it will be listed as "slang" in the dictionary) is advisable. That is, of course, if we are not moving into an abstract discussion of 'What is art?' and 'What is beauty?'.

Yet, the matter remains,

We can not move forward onto the a higher ground of discussion if both participants do not understand each other's usage of words.Thus, their arguments spin in circles like two men trying to grab each other's buttocks inside a revolving door. It stops the flow and people can't get inside the damn building.
 

Hawaiigm

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Apr 11, 2008
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Awe Man, this thread has Subjected to Godwin's Law. Abandon Intelligent Debate, all ye who enter here.
 

VeryOblivious

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Dec 2, 2007
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Thanks for the summarization tempdude, reading your post with about 75% of unnecessary examples is really exhausting. Anyway...

Tempdude0 said:
Metal Gear has mediocre writing because it tends to stretch suspension of disbelief to unheard of levels. Even within the world it sets up, certain events (anything concerning that cockwit Raiden) are beyond what could realistically happen. If ZE PATRIOTS!1! can get into peoples body and minds, there are no secrets...Period..
Let's assume that you meant "the logic or coherence in Metal Gear Solid' Story is ripped apart by its own author, which is an example of bad writing". That argument seems decent, now let us discuss what you, specifically, pointed as unrealistic. ZE PATR10T5! must know everything because they're "inside" of everyone with nanomachines. Note that "everyone with nanomachines" limits the amount of information of the patriots. Now consider every "plot twist" and attempts to deceive ZE PATRIOTS!!. Think about them slowly... Ok, now remember your own argument and think this: Those with nanomachines were deceived so that their perspective wouldn't reveal any true objective. Does this reminds you of Raiden, Snake or someone else? Anyway, now that the only decent argument you got there is invalidated, let's see others (Really, wading through all that irrelevant text is excruciating).

Tempdude0 said:
As for "Dry writing" I'm going to the dictionary again. I'm going to do your job for you just to point out how stupid you sound. "not showing or communicating warmth, enthusiasm, or tender feeling b: wearisome, uninteresting c: lacking embellishment" There we go, dry writing is never good due to it's nature and if you knew that you wouldn't be referring to something you like as "dry" you monumental douche. Stop using terms you don't comprehend.
The "dry" thing is completely subjective, I don't know what you intended to prove there. But seeing that you're referring only to Terran, I don't know why is it in THE summarization. God, you make your post unreadable.
 

Sennz0r

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May 25, 2008
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TerraMGP said:
Bah, actions don't speak louder than words, they just satisfy the impatient. He puts out the information that people need. This is like saying the Silmarillion is bad writing because its too dry for some people to follow. Its not bad writing, its the reader/watcher being unable or unwilling to follow it and just wanting punchy action. Still waters run deep after all.
Are you actually comparing a book; something you read, something that only tells a story, something passive, to a game; something you play, also has a story, but something that calls you into action? Please don't, those two are way too different, just don't.

I don't mind lots of story in a game. What I do mind, however, is when gameplay has to take a backseat to the story. It's like saying "we won't get the story right if you play too much, here, watch this cutscene where we explain everything that's going on and then you can go on kill some dudes again and we'll take over at the key story moments so you won't fuck up".
I said it before and I'll say it again; I don't know if this is actually how MGS4 plays and if it doesn't then don't assume I claim it to be so, but that's how I perceived it, and it sounds to me that it's more of a movie than a game.

Hell if it was a movie I'd probably go and watch it.


Also I have no further opinion on the entire MGS franchise, I just love the way this is happening to yet another big title game, like it did with SSBB.
 

Jumplion

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Mar 10, 2008
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Tempdude0, TerraMGP, do you guys even know what you're arguing about anymore? Hell, i don 't even know what you two are arguing about anymore.

Also, it feels funny when someone posts my username in their posts :3

EDIT: To all of of you people who are perciving that MGS4 has bad writing BEFORE you even play the fucking game, go dig yourself a ditch and bury yourselves. Never say anything about a game before you've played it, that includes saying "Well i havn't played the game yet...BBUUUTTTT *blah blah blah*"

That is very stupid as you obviously have no idea what you just talked about. Give the damn game a chance. I don't know if Tempdude0 or TerraMGP have played the game yet (TerraMGP probably did) but (mainly to Tempdude0) don't say a game has bad this and that before you havn't even played the game.