Awww, what the hell, I might as well join in.
The problem with you arguing this is such a clear and simplistic story is that if that is indeed the case then it's bad writing in his inability to explain it in a much more concise and hopefully punchy manner. If the story isn't that simple then your simplistic explanation of it proves it is again bad writing because you think you know what is happening but don't and thus he failed to tell the story well.
Now...
As far as Terra is concerned, I think you don't understand things unless they are spelled out in unbelievable detail. This shouldn't be the burden of the writer. If they want to go and create an encyclopedia of information for you to read on your own time because the universe is interesting to you, then great for you and him.
The problem arises when you include this encyclopedia into the narrative of the story, it destroys the pacing of a story. A story needs a good flow, or pacing, for it to be 'good'. This has nothing to do with patience or length. Right now my favorite books are the Song of Ice and Fire series by Martin. These are not short books, but he keeps the pace flowing in a way that makes you want to read more, makes you want to learn about where a character is going. Very little detail he gives you isn't important to the current sub plot or over arching plot.
Kojima doesn't possess this skill. He indulges in the details to an extreme level that only pull you out of the story and force you to realize your just taking in inconsequential information that has no bearing on what is happening. I think sometimes Kojima forgets he has a visual medium and just reads pages of dialog to you. When you are in a visual medium you need to use it. The rest of the time he forgets you're in an interactive medium.
It's obvious that he knows that rose and her child don't have nanomachines. The point is it doesn't make any sense for the AI's not to put nanos in them.VeryOblivious said:Just in case you didn't know, Rose and her son didn't have nanomachines. This is easily deducible as the A.I's don't know the relation of John (the son) and Raiden. Aplying this simple limitation in the example I showed, the obtained information from the boss's cameras are limited to the position, amount and quality of the cameras... Just like the nanomachines. Come on, this is very simple. You don't understand? That's because you don't wanna understand it or don't wanna lose the argument.
Everything? It is the essence of understanding what the nanobots do. How hard is this? Honestly?VeryOblivious said:What that has to do with anything?
A lot of people have son's, why would this one be any different. If Raiden having a son would be important at all to the AI's, don't you think they would have implanted nanos in his girlfriend?VeryOblivious said:Maybe because it was HER SON?
Except the nano's should know, at which point the plot falls apart.VeryOblivious said:Simple. Ocelot was working for the patriots, even though he had other agenda. He made all that "Liquid Ocelot" thing to deceive the A.I's, and make them believe he was Liquid, in order to force them to use Solid Snake as their counterattack measure. Making a checkmate, ignoring the success of Solid, Ocelot will win.
Solid grouped them together, you're nitpicking, badly.VeryOblivious said:He wasn't railing against the patriots. He was railing against Liquid. The most obvious thing in the game, geez.
Yes, it's called a plot device, and a bad one in this instance.VeryOblivious said:Break their own rules to make it all boring? You sure know how to criticize the writing.
Then you proved his point that Kojima has filled MGS4 (and I think the series in general) with useless verbose blather to try and conceal a very simple plot.VeryOblivious said:You didn't catch my drift. I exposed that the "over-convoluted and confusing plot" to be rather simple.
This is back to the Ocelot malarkey about convincing things that are in his brain that he is Liquid. Come on, simple plot that you just explained, keep up.VeryOblivious said:Picky me? You gotta be kidding me. And you must really use quotes, I can't connect that "correction" on anything I've said. Self hypnosis? When?
Wait, liquid is his own mother? Now I'm confused. Loyal to who?VeryOblivious said:My point wasn't order, my point is that you mixed up several stages of Ocelot's whole life into a single bad explained stage, ignoring the most simple objective in his life. He, as his mother, remained loyal to the end.
Only relevant in pointing out the absurdity of the story. One of the major problems was all of the story threads he created 20 years ago when he made the first two Metal Gear games. The plot was never intended to go this far, it was just a very 'video gamey' stealth game. Unfortunately these less than serious plot points were dragged along as the story... matured? I suppose that's an appropriate term, though I hardly want to apply it here. Comics often suffer from this illness, many times resulting in rebooting the series to remove the useless garbage that builds up.VeryOblivious said:You may want to show me something about it, although I don't think how this could be any relevant.
No, he never said because of the dictionary meaning of words that his view was objective (even if I tend to think he's the closest one to 'objective' that I've read here). So, you're the one not reading still.VeryOblivious said:Based in your own speech, I stated that your arguments weren't objective. Then you replied that you were objective because you were using the dictionary. Who's not reading?
It appears he's mostly using examples out of frustration with Terra. Her inability to grasp simple concepts is unnervingly frustrating. I assume he is just trying to make things clear for her so he can have a reasoned debate. This is at least how I interpreted the debate thus far.VeryOblivious said:Arguments do not need examples. They're only an addition as you have said. If your examples instead of helping, distract, then they're not good examples at all.
The problem with you arguing this is such a clear and simplistic story is that if that is indeed the case then it's bad writing in his inability to explain it in a much more concise and hopefully punchy manner. If the story isn't that simple then your simplistic explanation of it proves it is again bad writing because you think you know what is happening but don't and thus he failed to tell the story well.
Now...
As far as Terra is concerned, I think you don't understand things unless they are spelled out in unbelievable detail. This shouldn't be the burden of the writer. If they want to go and create an encyclopedia of information for you to read on your own time because the universe is interesting to you, then great for you and him.
The problem arises when you include this encyclopedia into the narrative of the story, it destroys the pacing of a story. A story needs a good flow, or pacing, for it to be 'good'. This has nothing to do with patience or length. Right now my favorite books are the Song of Ice and Fire series by Martin. These are not short books, but he keeps the pace flowing in a way that makes you want to read more, makes you want to learn about where a character is going. Very little detail he gives you isn't important to the current sub plot or over arching plot.
Kojima doesn't possess this skill. He indulges in the details to an extreme level that only pull you out of the story and force you to realize your just taking in inconsequential information that has no bearing on what is happening. I think sometimes Kojima forgets he has a visual medium and just reads pages of dialog to you. When you are in a visual medium you need to use it. The rest of the time he forgets you're in an interactive medium.