Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

[Jumplion]

However, all of that is purely an opinion. The whole "bad writing" argument is purely an opinion as there cannot be a fact that the series is badly written. I personally believe that hte MGS series is very well written if a bit clustered at times and that is my opinion. Is it wrong? No. can it be wrong to someone else? Yes. Does that still make my opinion wrong? No.

Try arguing that when you turn a paper into a professor in college, let me know how it works out for you. Make sure you retell the same points over and over again and leave big plot holes. Let me know what any student of literature will tell you about its quality. Your opinion may be different, but it can definately be wrong.

Remeber, just because you like something doesn't validate it as good literature. I enjoy many things that are bad, it makes them good to me, but it doesn't make them good.

(i'm probably going to completely contradict what i'm about to say but it's not problem as i do it all the time.)

Okay, first things first, by god do not reply to this. I don't want to go into another argument about opinions, i just want to show you what i mean from what i'm posting. no more arguing, it doesn't matter anymore.

So, first of all, there's a difference between an opinion and an opinion backed up by facts (prepare for the contradicting points >_> Obviously, when you turn in a paper to your professor you have to back up your opinion with facts. You can't just give him/her a paper with your opinion on something without backing up your opinion.

now, before you say anything, yes the whole arguing on here about MGS is opinion, but all of these opinions are backed up by even more opinions; thus creating a stupid argument.

An example of this would be my up-and-coming rant on mainstream (god i have to stop advertising that, it'll be a while before i finish it). I'm not going to just put my opinion on the Escapist without backing up them with real facts and not more opinions on what i'm discussing.

Another example would be that some of you are saying that the story is clustered and fucked and you back it up by explaining the story the way you see it. You may think that the way you stated the story would be confusing but for someone who understands the story it may just seem simple to them. So the person who said that the story was clustered or whatever just backed up his opinion with an opinion.

Do you understand what i'm trying to tell everyone? I'm not going to say the most obnoxious thing ever "*Insert username here*, did you read all of my posts?" or "*insert name here*, try reading my post again" because i absolutely hate people who do that, YES i read your post(s) as much as i could so i wouldn't sound like a retard so shut up!

But now i'm ranting if i havn't already.

So, can we put this to rest now? Can Solid Snake/Hideo Kojima be left alone in peace?

 

[agerdemon]

Alot of people are saying that there could be another mailbag showdown but has anyone really wrote something that can be trashed by Yahtzee? I don't know I was just asking?

 

[Jumplion]

Alot of people are saying that there could be another mailbag showdown but has anyone really wrote something that can be trashed by Yahtzee? I don't know I was just asking?

Probably in e-mails sent to him.

DAMNIT, i lied to myself...

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

MGS4 has atleast a half way believeable story. In halo 3 the master chief can fall through an ATMOSPHERE(Thats a huge distance) And not die from say heat, reentry, I dunno hitting the ground in a big metal suit? He gets up yet a few bullets kill him? WTF?! MGS series is atleast trying to fix some of its earlier kiddy mistakes and atleast it half way wraps up all the plot lines and characters.

No, it's really not. You're pointing out the difference between cutscenes and gameplay. MGS suffers from gaps in this just as badly as Halo ever has.

Okay i have thought about it yes snake gets burned, Yes snake somehow take explosives all this is true. but still atleast he feels the pain and heres a major thing that makes it differnt. There was no book you had to read to figure out why the hell did he just come flying out the sky they didn't make you have to buy a FUCKING BOOK.(Something that you will most likely have no sway you read it nothing more nothing less.) MGS4 left no cliffhangers when it said it was the final story. Unlike halo 3 that just says "Okay you finished the fight but now we need a lot more money so how about you keep buying the games where you have to deal with idiot AI's and even stupider enemies more like a comedey instead of a shooter and then when you go online you have to deal with kids. And then buy the books so you know why the hell this guys going to become a freaking monkey with a raygun." Hell it may seemed cluttered with dialouge but its actually dialouge that gives you the answers. Do you think the art of war could be wrote on one page? No because theres a whole lot of explanations same thing goes with mgs4. Nearly every cut scene( Minus a few with a little comical relief but still most of those still had a point.) had a use for the most part. If you delved into the dialouge a bit you could find various answers to why is snake dying who the hell is the The Boss and why did zero build the patriot AI.

 

[Pugjce]

This is simply not working. Evil is predicating his entire argument upon what he views are the varying rules of writing, debate, ect. Various other posters are doing the same.

Ultimately, from what Evil has stated and the manner in which he has posted, I cannot say that I'd grant him the title of "trusted, imperical source" in the issues of debate, or conception of creative writing. Once you make an argument about what you think is right, against what others think is right, and simply cease stating relevant facts, the debte has ended. Now we're playing I'm right because I'm a man whom knows about writing and fact, and you're wrong because you seem to be an idiot."

Thems no-where-lands, gents. Thems no-where-lands.

 

[Evilducks]

Once you make an argument about what you think is right, against what others think is right, and simply cease stating relevant facts, the debte has ended. Now we're playing I'm right because I'm a man whom knows about writing and fact, and you're wrong because you seem to be an idiot."

MGS4 repeats the stories of the previous games in a way that doesn't provide enough information to those new to the series and in a way that provides far too much repeated exposition to those who are familiar with the series. Tell me why this is good writing. I'll tell you why it is bad writing. It pulls the reader out of the story, it forces them to repeat information they already know, it talks down to the audience.

I stated a question that continues debate around relevant facts. You choose to ignore it, you don't appear to have been interested in debate at all.

 

[Kukakkau]

hah tactical espionage action - TEA (yes im british)
i was kinda the same hearing people talk about this in school with the whole ocelot died liquids arm takes over blah blah blah. seriously what the hell? i know the first games had kind of odd story points but that is ridiculous
personally i believe the game should have been a one hit wonder. none of the wierd ass sequels. though i can see why people like but just come on and old snake? when is that ever a good idea
rant over - hoping he reviews BF:bad company next should be decent

 

[The Thief]

I've never really played through any of the MGS games so I can't say I like the story, but from the pieces I've heard from it I do find it oddly interesting. Even if the story does suck it's better to be original and suck than copy something that sucks and suck harder than they did.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

@Eldritch Warlord: It probably is what EvilDuck said with the increased viewers or that everything that Yahtzee said about Halo 3 was correct but he says many things wrong with MGS4, oh deer i'm a jackass!! NOOOO!! Okay, no more arguing randomly! I'm clean.

But you've already unleased hell!! Kidding, but I do think you're wrong. I won't go into that but I posted a number of observations that are evidence for Yahtzee's bias against Halo and maybe popular games in general in the comments thread for Halo 3.

I think it's do to the increased viewership of ZP. Had Halo 3 come out last week I think the thread would easily be this long.

You're probably right, right now I'm beating myself up for not noticing that. It probably had something to do with it being 2 AM when I posted that.

MGS4 has atleast a half way believeable story. In halo 3 the master chief can fall through an ATMOSPHERE(Thats a huge distance) And not die from say heat, reentry, I dunno hitting the ground in a big metal suit? He gets up yet a few bullets kill him? WTF?! MGS series is atleast trying to fix some of its earlier kiddy mistakes and atleast it half way wraps up all the plot lines and characters.

Now I'm part of the problem but whatever, no one's fixing it.

If you had played Halo 3 then you probably would have noticed that when the controls are first given to you there is a large metal object of Forerunner design in a small crater right in front of you. Master Chief rode this down to avoid most of the friction heat. Also, his energy shield can intensified (at the cost of restricting movement) and projected away from the body to create a potent cushion. To add protection the suit has a layer of ballistic gel which dissipates kinetic energy and the armor can be "locked up" to prevent extreme trauma to the limbs. It does make sense, it just doesn't blatantly explain every detail.

Actually, tommorow on Wednsday there's going to be an update for the PS3 that allows players to earn Trophys. I'm not sure what games exactly will have those (Super Stardust HD will be the first) but i am totaly going to be a trophy whore.

I knew, and I've already interpreted it as an expected continuation of Sony's business strategy (in the video game market) which is to copy popular things and maybe improve them slightly. I'm not bashing them for it, it's obviously worked so far, but it certainly won't make me respect them. To be honest I've never liked Sony and, unless they seriously alter their strategy, probably never will. Even if I eventually do get a ps3 and love numerous games on it.

On a lighter note, why would I switch to collecting trophies when I have an impressive horde of achievements already?

EDIT:

There was no book you had to read to figure out why the hell did he just come flying out the sky [Konami] didn't make you have to buy a FUCKING BOOK.

The Halo novels and graphic novels are expansions of the story. One who cares about the story will read them, one only casually interested can get a basic understanding by just playing the games. And to show how uniformed you are I will tell you that there is nothing yet that actually explains why the hell he just came flying out the sky but you can assume from the ending of Halo 2 that he jumped off the Forerunner Dreadnought to escape it.

You're entire post seems like Halo bashing for the sake of Halo bashing and to "proove" that MGS is better. I don't care much what you believe and I don't see what you hope to gain by trying to convince people that you're right in your chosen fashion. What you should do is present facts or concurring opinions from respectable sources, or at the very least try to be entertaining.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

I hope the amount of these "everyone go fucking insane" threads lowers, I mean, he's complaining about MGS4 not welcoming newcomers, he's complaining about having to press triangle once to go into first person, and he played it on the easiest difficulty and said "it suckz and erryone is stupid!" - and now we have another 1,000 post thread - obviously this review is just a "get it out of the way and then review it so my 'fans' which I really hate, can shut the fuck up" kind of review.

When did we take Yahtzee seriously? WHEN? He makes some good points, and he uses humor, but he's not a serious reviewer, he's just here to make us laugh and make jokes about the game and there we go, that's it - he'll say if liked it or hated it and then wait till next week.

Remember, Yahtzee isn't God, he's just a normal guy, AND THAT'S WHY WE LIKE HIM, he's a normal guy who makes fun of games and uses humor to make a point, but overall he's just as bitchy and whiny as a fanboy is, and most of his complaints are just there to make his reviews longer, but if they make you laugh then you shouldn't care.

 

[Evilducks]

I hope the amount of these "everyone go fucking insane" threads lowers, I mean, he's complaining about MGS4 not welcoming newcomers, he's complaining about having to press triangle once to go into first person, and he played it on the easiest difficulty and said "it suckz and erryone is stupid!" - and now we have another 1,000 post thread - obviously this review is just a "get it out of the way and then review it so my 'fans' which I really hate, can shut the fuck up" kind of review.

When did we take Yahtzee seriously? WHEN? He makes some good points, and he uses humor, but he's not a serious reviewer, he's just here to make us laugh and make jokes about the game and there we go, that's it - he'll say if liked it or hated it and then wait till next week.

Remember, Yahtzee isn't God, he's just a normal guy, AND THAT'S WHY WE LIKE HIM, he's a normal guy who makes fun of games and uses humor to make a point, but overall he's just as bitchy and whiny as a fanboy is, and most of his complaints are just there to make his reviews longer, but if they make you laugh then you shouldn't care.

I find he gives more honest opinions of games than most enthusiast press outlets. He points out flaws, points out things done well, gives a personal opinion of the game in an entertaining manner. What about this is not a serious "review"?

 

[Tempdude0]

1. Ha, you actually replied to that? It wasn't even directed to you.

2. All Indigo_Dingo is doing is providing a simpler version of everyone's arguments, everyone else is trying to put some iceing on the cake.

3. Of course you are going to reply to anyone who answers you becase
A) You think they are wrong
B) You didn't read their posts clear enough
and
C) You reply to their relpys by doing the exact same thing that they are doing, which is replying with completely irrelivant answers (which i admit, they are giving you more relivant answers then you are right now)

I'm not a hater (though i wouldn't be surprised if you replied to THAT) but your answers are the most irrelivant. Most of the examples are Indigo_Dingo proving you wrong.

One more thing, why are you even trying to defend yourself? If you havn't even played the game you can't make assumptions because people who HAVE played the game will prove you wrong. Tell me, i know you said you've played the game from your friends copy, but tell me did you play the whole game with all the cutscenes paying close attention and maybe looking at the MGS Database after a while?

I can not see what you are trying to defend here, you have nothing to defend. Infact the more you defend your point or what ever it is you're defending, the more you're going to get burned and the more you will either try or succesfully burn others (as i do admit, some of your arguments are slightly valid if only slightly)

I'm done with you, DO NOT reply to this because i will most likely not reply back anyway (that's a lie, I probably would 3

1) So, it's directed at the magical invisible clone of myself. Right then.

2) A simple version. You mean a "concise" version, and even then that statement wouldn't be accurate. He's citing things from the story and going into detail on why they prove his point. Everyone else was "Don't understand, it's not that hard, Kojima moves in mysterious ways DURR HURR HURR."

3) Uh, I just admitted that Indigo_Dingo was correct, thereby invalidating the first two points. As for the last, my points are irrelevant in what way? Show me where I go off on a tangent that isn't related to something the previous poster brought up. I dare you to.

Of course you're not a hater, your reading comprehension just sucks.

I watched the game be played you dope, that's why I haven't commented on the gameplay aspects. I even said so a few posts back. It's hard to talk about borked controls or bad response time or whatever when my bulk of knowledge is just seeing the game be played. It allows me to comment on the pacing of the game, the cutscenes, and essentially everything but the controls.

I'm sorry you're not able to follow my writing. I wish I could impart upon you an ounce of reading comprehension with which to follow what I write. Others manage to do it. In fact, even some of the people arguing against my viewpoint understand my writing. Once again, YOUR lack of understanding in no way detracts from the validity of my previous statements.

To Bulletinmybrain, yeah, they wanted you to buy a book. The MGS series required you to own no less than four games. I wouldn't use something like that as a basis of any argument anyway.

The games main plot can be summarised in a few paragraphs, if you want to edit out the crucial details and understanding, yes. However, we need to also consider all the subplots and character revelataions.

And where is an example of this unneccesary dialogue? You actually need to give examples. I can think of one (UND PRECISELY VON) example of meaningless dialogue, the one where Snake and Otacon were trying to figure out why Liqid would be going to Shadow Moses if he needed to get an unrestricted Nuke. I had figured out before them that Ocelot was planning to use REX to launch part of its Nuclear stockpile at JD, and went along with their thirty second road to understanding. Thats 30 seconds.

Plus, I think you might be once again misinterpreting the artistic nature. The juxtaposition of grim and bloody warfare with boring expositions is supposed to reflect the harsh nature of the battlefield, and the frankly boring things that get fought over upon them. Least thats my interpretation.

The problem there is that "artistic nature" goes only so far. While you put forward an interesting theory, that doesn't make the dialogue any less dry. In a game/book/movie/and even artwork, the statment being made can only go so far without the piece pulling some of the weight. Unless of course you're attempting to relate MGS 4 to conceptual art, in which case I think your head should explode from even bringing that shit up. Even so, I'll try to run with it, IF THAT IS WHERE YOU'RE GOING, of course. If not, ignore everything from the "head exploding" part onward. Conceptual art is "...the idea or concept is the most important aspect of the work. When an artist uses a conceptual form of art, it means that all of the planning and decisions are made beforehand and the execution is a perfunctory affair. The idea becomes a machine that makes the art." I despise this with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns as it's an excuse to say "You just don't get it."...Okay, that was more of an "off tangent" that I've been accused of doing before, but I hate Conceptual art with a blinding passion.

I really shouldn't, but...
The reason they showed an aged to Snake was as a metaphor for Snakes ways and rules of battle were becoming outdated and obsolete, replaced by "modern warfare".

And that's how most of the metaphors should have gone. Kojima tends to neglect the visual aspects of the medium he works in. Had he managed to convey his "messages" whatever they may be, in a more subtle way I doubt people would be taking as many issues with the game. The problem is that he takes the "Beat the audience upside the head" approach. Some people may enjoy it, but it doesn't make him Chaucer.

I hope the amount of these "everyone go fucking insane" threads lowers, I mean, he's complaining about MGS4 not welcoming newcomers, he's complaining about having to press triangle once to go into first person, and he played it on the easiest difficulty and said "it suckz and everryone is stupid!" - and now we have another 1,000 post thread - obviously this review is just a "get it out of the way and then review it so my 'fans' which I really hate, can shut the fuck up" kind of review.

When did we take Yahtzee seriously? WHEN? He makes some good points, and he uses humor, but he's not a serious reviewer, he's just here to make us laugh and make jokes about the game and there we go, that's it - he'll say if liked it or hated it and then wait till next week.

Remember, Yahtzee isn't God, he's just a normal guy, AND THAT'S WHY WE LIKE HIM, he's a normal guy who makes fun of games and uses humor to make a point, but overall he's just as bitchy and whiny as a fanboy is, and most of his complaints are just there to make his reviews longer, but if they make you laugh then you shouldn't care.

Why do his complaints have to be there just to make his reviews longer? Can they not just be actual issues with the game? Hell, In many ways I find his reviews to be more accurate than those of other "reviewers" Sure, I may not always agree with him but I can't really discount most of the issues he brings up.

 

[Jumplion]

1. Ha, you actually replied to that? It wasn't even directed to you.

2. All Indigo_Dingo is doing is providing a simpler version of everyone's arguments, everyone else is trying to put some iceing on the cake.

3. Of course you are going to reply to anyone who answers you becase
A) You think they are wrong
B) You didn't read their posts clear enough
and
C) You reply to their relpys by doing the exact same thing that they are doing, which is replying with completely irrelivant answers (which i admit, they are giving you more relivant answers then you are right now)

I'm not a hater (though i wouldn't be surprised if you replied to THAT) but your answers are the most irrelivant. Most of the examples are Indigo_Dingo proving you wrong.

One more thing, why are you even trying to defend yourself? If you havn't even played the game you can't make assumptions because people who HAVE played the game will prove you wrong. Tell me, i know you said you've played the game from your friends copy, but tell me did you play the whole game with all the cutscenes paying close attention and maybe looking at the MGS Database after a while?

I can not see what you are trying to defend here, you have nothing to defend. Infact the more you defend your point or what ever it is you're defending, the more you're going to get burned and the more you will either try or succesfully burn others (as i do admit, some of your arguments are slightly valid if only slightly)

I'm done with you, DO NOT reply to this because i will most likely not reply back anyway (that's a lie, I probably would 3

1) So, it's directed at the magical invisible clone of myself. Right then.

2) A simple version. You mean a "concise" version, and even then that statement wouldn't be accurate. He's citing things from the story and going into detail on why they prove his point. Everyone else was "Don't understand, it's not that hard, Kojima moves in mysterious ways DURR HURR HURR."

3) Uh, I just admitted that Indigo_Dingo was correct, thereby invalidating the first two points. As for the last, my points are irrelevant in what way? Show me where I go off on a tangent that isn't related to something the previous poster brought up. I dare you to.

Of course you're not a hater, your reading comprehension just sucks.

I watched the game be played you dope, that's why I haven't commented on the gameplay aspects. I even said so a few posts back. It's hard to talk about borked controls or bad response time or whatever when my bulk of knowledge is just seeing the game be played. It allows me to comment on the pacing of the game, the cutscenes, and essentially everything but the controls.

I'm sorry you're not able to follow my writing. I wish I could impart upon you an ounce of reading comprehension with which to follow what I write. Others manage to do it. In fact, even some of the people arguing against my viewpoint understand my writing. Once again, YOUR lack of understanding in no way detracts from the validity of my previous statements.

Oh the irony, you complaining about MGS with bad writing and I apparantly can comprehend your own works of writing. You must totaly be a bad writer [/sarcasam]

I don't feel like defending my points that probably changed a couple of pages ago (I think this was quoted in page 25) as I really have nothing to defend. You're entitled to your opinion but why are you so determined to prove that your opinion (or more accurately Yahtzee's) is fact when it is clearly not.

I would prefer you do not reply to this, but even if you do i'm not going to reply so it would be a waste of both bandwidth and your time.

 

[Pastey Old Greg]

I've only ever played the NES Metal Gear games (good) and Metal Gear Solid 2 (eh), and I came away with the feeling that if they cut out certain points in the story. It's kind of like someone did the M. Night twists, but just added them in random parts over and over in each story or sub-story. Did we really need to go from MGS2's mission being a terrorist attack to a terrorist attack being committed by terrorists who think they're terrorists but are actually led by a guy leading a training exercise being led by a guy who wants to overthrow the government? Can't it just be a terrorist attack to overthrow the government? And what the hill did La Le Lu Le Lo (or whatever) have to do with anything? Whoever he is, he apparently had nothing to do with anything, but all of the characters freak out whenever you mention him, and it just seems to be a distraction.

Also, I don't complain about length of cutscenes. I'm fine with a long one as long as they don't slow down the game, outstage the gameplay, or get unnecessarily wordy, but MGS2 broke all of those. All I do is walk down a hallway shooting tranquilizer darts, then get to see my character pull off awesome combat moves against like twelve enemies in a ten-minute cutscene. Why can't I pull off those cool combat moves? All I do is end up walking down hallways shoot tranq darts, then having to fight a boss battle with the world's worst control schemes (can't I just press a button to draw a gun, then aim down the sights or fire? Why hold down a ton of buttons and press one button to fire, losing my aim if I let anything go?). It feels like many of the scenes can be done in a third of the time, while being just as well-said and well-developed as the original dialogue. Also, Japanese developers need to stop the whole "you think he's dead, then he shows up and dies again, but still is/maybe alive," thing. That got old by the end of the NES era.

I was fine with MGS2 as a $40 purchase. It was pretty polished and I saw it to the end, but I honestly don't see the praise it gets as a game, but understand why it's hailed as more of a story-oriented experience. If you sum up the main ideas and plot points, then it's a lot of great ideas, just put through the wrong paces, is all. I think Kojima needs to learn a little bit of subtlety, instead of just blurting out a plot twist every time you enter a new room.

 

[Tempdude0]

1. Ha, you actually replied to that? It wasn't even directed to you.

2. All Indigo_Dingo is doing is providing a simpler version of everyone's arguments, everyone else is trying to put some iceing on the cake.

3. Of course you are going to reply to anyone who answers you becase
A) You think they are wrong
B) You didn't read their posts clear enough
and
C) You reply to their relpys by doing the exact same thing that they are doing, which is replying with completely irrelivant answers (which i admit, they are giving you more relivant answers then you are right now)

I'm not a hater (though i wouldn't be surprised if you replied to THAT) but your answers are the most irrelivant. Most of the examples are Indigo_Dingo proving you wrong.

One more thing, why are you even trying to defend yourself? If you havn't even played the game you can't make assumptions because people who HAVE played the game will prove you wrong. Tell me, i know you said you've played the game from your friends copy, but tell me did you play the whole game with all the cutscenes paying close attention and maybe looking at the MGS Database after a while?

I can not see what you are trying to defend here, you have nothing to defend. Infact the more you defend your point or what ever it is you're defending, the more you're going to get burned and the more you will either try or succesfully burn others (as i do admit, some of your arguments are slightly valid if only slightly)

I'm done with you, DO NOT reply to this because i will most likely not reply back anyway (that's a lie, I probably would 3

1) So, it's directed at the magical invisible clone of myself. Right then.

2) A simple version. You mean a "concise" version, and even then that statement wouldn't be accurate. He's citing things from the story and going into detail on why they prove his point. Everyone else was "Don't understand, it's not that hard, Kojima moves in mysterious ways DURR HURR HURR."

3) Uh, I just admitted that Indigo_Dingo was correct, thereby invalidating the first two points. As for the last, my points are irrelevant in what way? Show me where I go off on a tangent that isn't related to something the previous poster brought up. I dare you to.

Of course you're not a hater, your reading comprehension just sucks.

I watched the game be played you dope, that's why I haven't commented on the gameplay aspects. I even said so a few posts back. It's hard to talk about borked controls or bad response time or whatever when my bulk of knowledge is just seeing the game be played. It allows me to comment on the pacing of the game, the cutscenes, and essentially everything but the controls.

I'm sorry you're not able to follow my writing. I wish I could impart upon you an ounce of reading comprehension with which to follow what I write. Others manage to do it. In fact, even some of the people arguing against my viewpoint understand my writing. Once again, YOUR lack of understanding in no way detracts from the validity of my previous statements.

Oh the irony, you complaining about MGS with bad writing and I apparantly can comprehend your own works of writing. You must totaly be a bad writer [/sarcasam]

I don't feel like defending my points that probably changed a couple of pages ago (I think this was quoted in page 25) as I really have nothing to defend. You're entitled to your opinion but why are you so determined to prove that your opinion (or more accurately Yahtzee's) is fact when it is clearly not.

I would prefer you do not reply to this, but even if you do i'm not going to reply so it would be a waste of both bandwidth and your time.

My free time is pretty much worthless, hence the "free", so it's kind of hard to waste. That said, awaaaaay we go.

That first sentence doesn't even make sense. I mean, I guess you're saying you comprehend both bad writing and my own and as a result the two are comparable. The issue here is that you DON'T comprehend my writing you twat. I know it's hard for you, but I'm pretty sure you can make SOME kind of snide comment without resorting to moon logic.

It's hard to defend something without being halfway intelligent, and you change your points between pages? What, can't you even get what you're arguing straight? I even quoted your point for ease of reading. Though you did get the "nothing to defend" part correct.

I'm only determined to prove my point because almost everyone I'm arguing against is being a cockwit. I even GAVE YOU PEOPLE A VALID ARGUMENT WITH WHICH TO WORK and it was ignored. I did half the work for you and you still can't be arsed to fill in the blanks and make a reasonable argument, hence my incessant responding.

Oh, and you skipped every single point I made...even the numbered ones. GO YOU!

I've only ever played the NES Metal Gear games (good) and Metal Gear Solid 2 (eh), and I came away with the feeling that if they cut out certain points in the story. It's kind of like someone did the M. Night twists, but just added them in random parts over and over in each story or sub-story. Did we really need to go from MGS2's mission being a terrorist attack to a terrorist attack being committed by terrorists who think they're terrorists but are actually led by a guy leading a training exercise being led by a guy who wants to overthrow the government? Can't it just be a terrorist attack to overthrow the government? And what the hill did La Le Lu Le Lo (or whatever) have to do with anything? Whoever he is, he apparently had nothing to do with anything, but all of the characters freak out whenever you mention him, and it just seems to be a distraction.

Also, I don't complain about length of cutscenes. I'm fine with a long one as long as they don't slow down the game, outstage the gameplay, or get unnecessarily wordy, but MGS2 broke all of those. All I do is walk down a hallway shooting tranquilizer darts, then get to see my character pull off awesome combat moves against like twelve enemies in a ten-minute cutscene. Why can't I pull off those cool combat moves? All I do is end up walking down hallways shoot tranq darts, then having to fight a boss battle with the world's worst control schemes (can't I just press a button to draw a gun, then aim down the sights or fire? Why hold down a ton of buttons and press one button to fire, losing my aim if I let anything go?). It feels like many of the scenes can be done in a third of the time, while being just as well-said and well-developed as the original dialogue. Also, Japanese developers need to stop the whole "you think he's dead, then he shows up and dies again, but still is/maybe alive," thing. That got old by the end of the NES era.

I was fine with MGS2 as a $40 purchase. It was pretty polished and I saw it to the end, but I honestly don't see the praise it gets as a game, but understand why it's hailed as more of a story-oriented experience. If you sum up the main ideas and plot points, then it's a lot of great ideas, just put through the wrong paces, is all. I think Kojima needs to learn a little bit of subtlety, instead of just blurting out a plot twist every time you enter a new room.

The La Le Lu Le Lo are the Patriots. Let's just leave it at that. If you're interested in more information about the La Le Lu Le Lo, just look it up. Trust me, it's better than having anyone here explain it.

Though the "Alive, Dead, Alive" whack a mole CAN be well done, I agree that Kojima goes a tad overboard with all the "Alive, Dead, working for dude A but really B but in actuality C, Dead, Alive, Working for D...etc."

Honestly, I don't even really disagree with the "Alive, Dead, etc..." I just wanted to toss in my two cents while I was replying to Jumptheshark up there.