Zero Punctuation: Webcomics

[Worsle]

Rebochan the difference between getting away with being a prima donna and not is talent. Buckley does not put out any thing good enough to start covering up for his flaws. Personally I don't give a damn about Buckley but some of the bitchy stories are rather funny and his "explanation" of his miscarriage story (and the way it was handled in general, as a reset button) makes him seem like a self adsorbed moron. That and no artist should shut out all complaints and that is why Buckley has done not just the over the top ones I mean every single descenting voice is silenced, this is not a good thing to do even if you are doing some thing well in the first place.

That and when people will laugh at a piss poor joke that has is crushing you in text, has no sense of timing and makes zero use of the visual aspect of a comic (even dinosaur comics does better here and it has a static layout) and don't recognise it they should be mocked. You can still like shit things, personally I love anything absurd enough, but if you can't understand its faults then where does that leave us?

Edit. Yahtzee wrote an article that you can see on his site that explains why he sees CAD as the epitome of the banality of the internet. he dislikes it because CAD gets away with putting out such mediocre drivel and yet gets lapped up, he explaining a comment he made in an interview and backs it up well. It is not an article seething with hatred or a sign of someone with an axe to grind, he even compliments Buckley's art blog as showing he can be a good artist if he tries but insteed he gets heaped with praise for this copy and paste nonsense.

 

[Plowking]

Rebochan the difference between getting away with being a prima donna and not is talent. Buckley does not put out any thing good enough to start covering up for his flaws. Personally I don't give a damn about Buckley but some of the bitchy stories are rather funny and his "explanation" of his miscarriage story (and the way it was handled in general, as a reset button) makes him seem like a self adsorbed moron. That and no artist should shut out all complaints and that is why Buckley has done not just the over the top ones I mean every single descenting voice is silenced, this is not a good thing to do even if you are doing some thing well in the first place.

That and when people will laugh at a piss poor joke that has is crushing you in text, has no sense of timing and makes zero use of the visual aspect of a comic (even dinosaur comics does better here and it has a static layout) and don't recognise it they should be mocked. You can still like shit things, personally I love anything absurd enough, but if you can't understand its faults then where does that leave us?

I agree with all of that. Within the 25 pages of posts here, the truth does lie, almost buried. But there it is.

That's the closing argument in many ways for the people who do not like CAD.

Can arguments FOR CAD (are there any?) be as well rounded and - quite basically - obvious?

Edit:
Let's try:
"But copying and pasting the same images over every same four panels is great artwork!"
"Interjecting a zany game web comic with stories about not wanting to date large women and sudden miscarriages IS great story telling..."
"It's great that all the characters react to situations they don't like by a)stabbing b)maiming c)threatening to stab, maim etc. d)unfunny profanity, and so on..."
"It doesn't have to be funny - it's about GAMES, I like games..."

Sorry, none of them do it for me...

 

[ness42153]

CAD has its moments (as all webcomics do in my opinion) of something hilariously funny, and right now that child issue did make me and my buddy, as yahtzee said in the video, "smile nosily at each other", but the same can be said about this video... yahtzee has made me laugh in any other review but this one sounded like he just had a pure rant so he chose this to release his rage upon

so the good and bad; Good- made me realize in full what a downhill fall CAD is in right now; BAD- i honestly didnt laugh at all in this review... in fact everything he critiqued CAD (and other webcomics) upon eventually can be called upon the great yahtzee and zeropunctuation himself...(of course not the miscarriage thing)

in all i hope he avoids this concept in the future

 

[friedmetroid]

I can't be bothered to read through 24 pages of drivel to see if it's been posted before, but I guess all author insertion webcomic characters aren't charismatic eccentrics loved by everyone.

http://www.zebeth.com/planetzebeth/archive1k/z1010.html

 

[rebochan]

I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep throwing myself to the trolls. Clearly people are going to argue against anyone with a dissenting opinion regardless of what that opinion is. I merely pointed out that when you turn it into petty insult fests, you're deprived of any real argument because you're just too petty to handle the concept that people might disagree with you. I doubt the irony that this is exactly what you accuse Buckley of doing will ever sink in of course.

Oh, and I referenced both this and Yahtzee's essay multiple times in the thread, but eh. Why let facts get in the way of a good troll?

EDIT: Oh hell, one more.

Edit:
Let's try:
"But copying and pasting the same images over every same four panels is great artwork!"
"Interjecting a zany game web comic with stories about not wanting to date large women and sudden miscarriages IS great story telling..."
"It's great that all the characters react to situations they don't like by a)stabbing b)maiming c)threatening to stab, maim etc. d)unfunny profanity, and so on..."
"It doesn't have to be funny - it's about GAMES, I like games..."

Sorry, none of them do it for me...

Nobody in all 25 pages of this flamefest said anything like that. Ever. But please, continue wailing on the straw men if it makes you happy. I'm sure it's really my fault for not understanding the genius of inventing an entire opposite argument that pales in comparison to my own brilliance.

 

[Mr. Fister]

Hmmm, let's see now....a dumb main character, a character who inexplicably puts up with the main character, a girl character, and a hard time shifting from comedy to drama...it could only be one webcomic...

UNFORGOTTEN REALMS!!!!

....Oh wait, UR doesn't have a girl character, or a hard time shifting from comedy to drama. It's also not a webcomic.

Anyway, good video, but I prefer Strong Bad's take on webcomics.

 

[Bibdy]

The only web comic I've enjoyed was Concerned. Everything else just sucks, including Penny Arcade.

Amen. That has been the first and only webcomic to put me in tears.

 

[GlenRice41]

lol Yahtzee i loved this one, completely random randomness of it all the fact you just went in a complete other direction than reviewing a game also random!! beautiful! but i still feel a mailbag showdown lurking in the midst. or maybe thats just me dreaming.

but for the sake of randomness: Cheese monkey ass boink fart twingtwang.

what the hell is twingtwang? lol

 

[Plowking]

I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep throwing myself to the trolls. Clearly people are going to argue against anyone with a dissenting opinion regardless of what that opinion is. I merely pointed out that when you turn it into petty insult fests, you're deprived of any real argument because you're just too petty to handle the concept that people might disagree with you. I doubt the irony that this is exactly what you accuse Buckley of doing will ever sink in of course.

Oh, and I referenced both this and Yahtzee's essay multiple times in the thread, but eh. Why let facts get in the way of a good troll?

EDIT: Oh hell, one more.

Edit:
Let's try:
"But copying and pasting the same images over every same four panels is great artwork!"
"Interjecting a zany game web comic with stories about not wanting to date large women and sudden miscarriages IS great story telling..."
"It's great that all the characters react to situations they don't like by a)stabbing b)maiming c)threatening to stab, maim etc. d)unfunny profanity, and so on..."
"It doesn't have to be funny - it's about GAMES, I like games..."

Sorry, none of them do it for me...

Nobody in all 25 pages of this flamefest said anything like that. Ever. But please, continue wailing on the straw men if it makes you happy. I'm sure it's really my fault for not understanding the genius of inventing an entire opposite argument that pales in comparison to my own brilliance.

A troll is someone who doesn't contribute anything, just comments on others posts trying to point out stuff only they deem fit to mention, irregardless of the topic. Which are you again?

Anyway, if anyone else had said them, I would have referenced them. Stop taking things too literally. I'm merely entertaining my side of the argument. The quote symbols are just to symbolise speech. But please actually READ the 25 pages, all of what I mention there, is referenced and mentioned on various occasions (but of course, cited as reasons against CAD, not for )- except the last one, I made that one up.

If you come to forum expecting to read insults, flames, and all that kind of stuff, then you colour your perception of what you read towards those traits - turning mere fun poking into an attack on someone (usually the reader).

I mean, in all seriousness, I thought the video was hilarious, and I'm just expressing my own thoughts...

Oh, and I despise CAD and Tim - as a result of direct correspondence (not in person) experience.

And that miscarriage story line is an insult to the very serious subject matter - largely due to the ineptitude of the writing, and even the cartoony art.

Now, serious topics like that have been protrayed in cartoon strips before, but intentionally, and attempted with humour, and tasteless etc. in many opinions.

But to attempt it in a serious context, using quirky cartoon characters? It's like an episode of The Simpsons suddenly dealing with rape! How utterly wrong.

 

[PsiMatrix]

I really don't see why so many people are getting so worked-up about this. He's not bashing CAD. In fact, he barely even hints about that as a specific web comic. He's talking about comics in general.

BAD- i honestly didnt laugh at all in this review... in fact everything he critiqued CAD (and other webcomics) upon eventually can be called upon the great yahtzee and zeropunctuation himself...(of course not the miscarriage thing)

Agreed with Stammer, disagree/agree with ness.

The only CAD specific reference was the miscarriage thing. All the other things can be applied to numerous other comics out there.

Having just watched the video again; he insults himself several times as well (alpha-bearded tosser, mushrooms blossoming in the shit that is the internet) like he has in several others.

 

[DreamerM]

Ya know, all this just goes to prove that CAD and Buckley don't pose the slightest threat to Yahtzee's grip on either his fanbase or his job security.

Yahtzees fanboys are legion. They well outnumber CAD's. And the Escapist is not afraid of Buckley. They've ridden high on the traffic generated by Yahtzee's "outrageous" claims before now, and I don't see why they'd censor him now.

That said, Yahtzee's just become a participant in Webcomic Drama.

 

[Mr. Fister]

Yahtzee became a participant in Webcomic Drama when he made one himself. Read his blog site to learn a little more about it.

Oddly enough, Webcomic Drama sound like a cheesy soap opera to me.

 

[meone007]

I thought it was a joke! CAD actually did a bit about a miscarriage. Wow, I don't know how he still has readers to be honest, none of the new stuff even attempts humor, it's like a soap opera with little to no game mentions

 

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Yahtzee did put together a rather lengthy editorial on his website about CAD, and he's written about webcomics before.

Yes, in the 23/3/08: You Cad entry on his front page he harped a bit on how CAD sucks and used an example of this Ctrl+Alt+Del strip [http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070718] and this Penny Arcade strip [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28] as they both make the same obvious joke about Puzzle Quest, some game I've never heard of and apparently hope I never have the misfortune of playing.

Thing is, though, I disagreed with Yahtzee's assessment. First of all, I didn't think either of them were funny at all because gaming humor comics are like a whoopie cushion that doesn't make any noise. But if pressed, I would have to give the advantage to Ctrl+Alt+Del on this one.

For those who have no idea that Penny Arcade is a gaming comic or is not exactly up on all of the stupid games out there, or is aware of such things but does not give two shits, the Penny Arcade strip is a total non-sequitur. Is this supposed to be funny? Because it isn't, you know. It assumes a level of familiarity that if it's not there, it simply does not work on any level. (Personally, I still think the timing or whatever is way off on the damned thing even if you are familiar with Puzzle Quest, but I bitched about that already)

The Ctrl+Alt+Del one, on the other hand, does not make knowledge of the game a prerequisite to get the humor. In fact, it kind of explains it a bit so I have a slightly better understanding on what the fuck is going on. In fact, i think Yahtzee was dead wrong when he wrote:

Both comics identify the humour in the situation - that the rules of a game world seem absurd when applied to the real world - but while Penny Arcade understands that the crux of a joke should be reserved for the final panel, Ctrl-Alt-Del is apparently so excited about the idea that it blurts it out right away, leaving three more panels to flounder in excessive dialogue and pointlessness.

First of all, because since all gaming web comics apply real world logic to games with "humorous" results, this sort of shit hasn't been funny since Steve Jackson Games stopped publishing Space gamer back in 1985. It's old and not very funny. Particularly in this case. I think Yahtzee incorrectly identified where the "punch" is here, because if there is one in this situation, it isn't in the people playing some idiotic version of Chinese Checkers instead of fighting. At best that's dim at worst it makes no sense. I don't think Ctrl+Alt+Del is particularly funny, but I do think it was marginally funnier in this case.

 

[tailsandy]

26 pages is too much! So I'm gonna ask if anyone else here remembers "That's My Sonic!", one of those comics that was originally a sonic sprite comic, then became hand-drawn.

That was one of my first webcomics. There was another one I read, but I'd forgotten what it was called.

EDIT: It was possible that it was called BerserkerTails. I'm not 100% positive.

EDIT number 2: http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6/wtfmodtd6.jpg

Is this guy serious? He's giving somene a warning for spam because he explained a thread rule to him? Can you say, "ass-ramming dictatorship"?

 

[Plowking]

EDIT number 2: http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6/wtfmodtd6.jpg

Is this guy serious? He's giving somene a warning for spam because he explained a thread rule to him? Can you say, "ass-ramming dictatorship"?

It's always been like that on those forums - but the sheep are so up Tim's ass they go along with it, fearful of warning/banning reprisals.

They can of course police the forums any way they want to...the end result though should be that the only forum members remaining are Tim and his army of Tim-ass-ramming mods.

If anyone hasn't noticed, the forums were taken down, and brought back up, MINUS all the CAD related topics - it's gone! I suspect only members can see it now. One member had the guts to mention Yahtzee's video, but actually wrote that he 'apologises to Tim in advance'...how utterly pathetic.

@ Jack Spencer Jr
You make a valid point. But I got to thinking as I read the strips, what if you cut off all the extra panels of both strips and left only the first ones? Then presented them to the people.

Penny Arcade - you can see that a warrior is about to do battle with some evil monsters (in fact you can even add the 2nd panel in to see what he's fighting and the reader is still none the wiser.

CAD - well, what else is needed? The first panel explains it all, clearly the character on the left is not going to accept this as a form of battle. End result = obvious.

Your point about not knowing the game they are parodying is true, but if every single strip has to be verbosely explained to the reader then only people who don't know the game should bother reading past panel one. If you have to explain a joke, it's not funny.

Either way - the true awful generic rubbish that is the 'art' of CAD is highlighted so perfectly in that strip, even more so when compared to the stylish PA art of their strip in this instance. It's so bad that the character who gets stabbed in panel 3, STILL hasn't moved a muscle in panel 4.

Dupiclating art is very common (aka Red Meat) - but that's so well written the art is secondary. You can get away with bad art using great writing, but CAD is so poory written. Who wants to look at the same four panels over and over, each one crammed with badly written dialog?

 

[Baztrd]

@ Jack Spencer Jr.:

I somewhat see where you are coming from, but, I very much disagree. Those two comics perfectly illustrate why CAD is crap PA isn't.

The CAD comic is over-explained, drawn-out, mistimed and very, very, very poorly drawn. As Plowking points out, he explains the joke in panel 1, then goes on to make said joke. Why? You've just explained it... Let me try to put this into joke-telling perspective....

Joke: Punctuation. It's the difference between helping your uncle, Jack, off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

CAD Joke: You know how there's like, punctuation? Yes? And you know how if you change it around, it sometimes makes a sentence mean something else? Right, well that can be really funny! Really! Like, for instance, Jack, is a name, right? But it can also be a verb, when combined with off *sniggers* and it means a dirty then! Bwahaha! So you could say "help your uncle jack off a horse" instead of "help your uncle, Jack, off a horse"! HAHAHAHAHA!

I hope the difference is obvious...

And then, as said, there's the artwork. Or rather, there is in the PA comic, and there isn't in the CAD one. Now, a comic doesn't always need good artwork. Drawings can be used simply as a background for a joke. But then, your joke damnwell beter be good. Tim fails there. Epicly. In both comics the joke isn't very clever, but, PA makes something of it by combining it with some solid artwork.

Should a joke never need to be explained... I don't know, I think sometimes you can get away with a bit of explanation, but it's an art to do this without ruining the joke. Should everyone be able to get a joke, regardless of their knowledge of the subject? Hell no. If I decide to dedicate a comic to the antics of character in a videogame, I'd be writing this mostly for people who know said game. Sure, You can probably make a couple of jokes that everyone will get and laugh at, but "in-crowd" jokes will in the long run be inevitable. Also, they can be very, very funny, though not for everyone.

 

[Mr. Fister]

Something else to remember: Just because you don't find something funny doesn't mean nobody finds it funny.

 

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hey, guys. I continue to disagree. Well, in a nuanced way. In case I wasn't abundantly clear before, I don't think either comic is very funny, either in these example strips or the whole of their archives. (I tried reading the Ctrl+Alt+Del archives starting with the beginning and the first couple months worth of strips was talking about other web comics. I've found other web comics also do this for the first couple strips. Maybe they should remove those ones from the archives because that isn't very funny and will cause people to not bother with your web comic)

First of all, the joke about doing battle with someone using a odd version of Checkers or whatever the hell that thing is is not very funny in the first place. It's been done zillions of times before. "In Super Mario Bros. You hit your head on bricks to find coins but in the real world you'd just get a concussion. Ha ha." It wasn't very funny when Murphy's Rules appeared in the pages of Space Gamer back in the early 80's and it really hasn't gotten all that much better. You can't rely on this and just this to be funny, because it isn't. So it's all about the execution for this kind of thing.

Penny Arcade more or less relies on just this gag to be funny. In the interest of fairness, they do try a bit more than that, what with the mighty warrior spouting soliloquies and the giant rat thing growling menacingly to contrast with the two of them playing a board game. But, this doesn't work for me. Even after I know what the stupid game they're lampooning is. I'm not sure what it is but there are three panels to this particular strip and I am still looking for a fourth panel that has the actual punchline. In fact, I tend to look for another panel that has the punchline whenever I read Penny Arcade. It's like they were playing comic strip Iron Chef or something and time ran out before they could get to the actual punchline.

Now, to be fair, again, it may be their execution is what sucks here more than their structure. The cut from the two close-up to the two of them playing a board game in silhouette is actually kind of jarring. Maybe it needed a few more panels of the two of them rushing at each other emitting blood-thirsty battle cries before stopping to quietly play a board game. Something like that. That seems to be where they were going, but it doesn't really come across in a visceral way. But, doing that would be contrary to the cramped style where spatial relationships between people and object is anyone's guess that the strip has developed over the years.

Ctrl+Alt+Del, however, does not rely on the board game playing to be the actual gag of the strip so much as the interactions of the characters in response to this situation. The punchline of this strip is not that they are going to play a board game instead of actually fighting. The joke is that the one guy simply stabbed the other guy (third panel) and then that guy was more disappointed that they weren't going to play the board game instead of being more worried that he'd just been stabbed (fourth panel). The punchline is not "We're going to play this board game instead of fight." The punchline is "Aw, man. It took me an hour to set up the board."

Is it all that funny? No. Not particularly.

Is it predictable? Hell, yes.

But the fact remains that I got the faintest twinge of humor from the Ctrl+Alt+Del strip whereas Penny Arcade gave me nothing. (Incidentally, I described both strips to the wife and she did not laugh at the Penny Arcade one but did laugh at Ctrl+Alt+Del. I think that proves my point) It may be because I was looking for another panel after the lame board game joke was told in Penny Arcade and Ctrl+Alt+Del actually gave me that.

And the point I was making in the previous post and am hopefully clarifying here is that I think Yahtzee was dead wrong in saying that this comparison demonstrates what is wrong with Ctrl+Alt+Del because he misidentified where the punchline was. For Penny Arcade, they could have saved a lot of drawing time and just put the words "Hur hur Games don't make no sense Hur hur" up as a strip instead. Ctrl+Alt+Del used the, at best, mildly amusing joke about the board game as a spring board to set up the situation which led to a predictable but slightly more amusing end.

And before anyone thinks I'm defending Ctrl+Alt+Del and it's titwaggling creator or something stupid like that, let me reiterate that I don't like web comics in general and gaming web comics in particular. They aren't funny. So they're just like the comic strips in the newspaper. They aren't funny, either, with the possible exception of Rex Morgan M.D. Oh, that wacky Dr. Rex. The only difference is you have to print out a web comic before you can line a birdcage with it or use it to start a fire in your grill.

 

[Livi70590]

Zero Punctuation branches out, presumably to tick off everyone not in the gaming industry.


I Like.


Who else would like to see Yahtzee on a radio show resembling BBC Radio 5's Fighting Talk? (Obviously not involving sport.)