Zero Punctuation: Webcomics

[PsiMatrix]

I really don't see why so many people are getting so worked-up about this. He's not bashing CAD. In fact, he barely even hints about that as a specific web comic. He's talking about comics in general.

BAD- i honestly didnt laugh at all in this review... in fact everything he critiqued CAD (and other webcomics) upon eventually can be called upon the great yahtzee and zeropunctuation himself...(of course not the miscarriage thing)

Agreed with Stammer, disagree/agree with ness.

The only CAD specific reference was the miscarriage thing. All the other things can be applied to numerous other comics out there.

Having just watched the video again; he insults himself several times as well (alpha-bearded tosser, mushrooms blossoming in the shit that is the internet) like he has in several others.

 

[DreamerM]

Ya know, all this just goes to prove that CAD and Buckley don't pose the slightest threat to Yahtzee's grip on either his fanbase or his job security.

Yahtzees fanboys are legion. They well outnumber CAD's. And the Escapist is not afraid of Buckley. They've ridden high on the traffic generated by Yahtzee's "outrageous" claims before now, and I don't see why they'd censor him now.

That said, Yahtzee's just become a participant in Webcomic Drama.

 

[Mr. Fister]

Yahtzee became a participant in Webcomic Drama when he made one himself. Read his blog site to learn a little more about it.

Oddly enough, Webcomic Drama sound like a cheesy soap opera to me.

 

[meone007]

I thought it was a joke! CAD actually did a bit about a miscarriage. Wow, I don't know how he still has readers to be honest, none of the new stuff even attempts humor, it's like a soap opera with little to no game mentions

 

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Yahtzee did put together a rather lengthy editorial on his website about CAD, and he's written about webcomics before.

Yes, in the 23/3/08: You Cad entry on his front page he harped a bit on how CAD sucks and used an example of this Ctrl+Alt+Del strip [http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070718] and this Penny Arcade strip [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28] as they both make the same obvious joke about Puzzle Quest, some game I've never heard of and apparently hope I never have the misfortune of playing.

Thing is, though, I disagreed with Yahtzee's assessment. First of all, I didn't think either of them were funny at all because gaming humor comics are like a whoopie cushion that doesn't make any noise. But if pressed, I would have to give the advantage to Ctrl+Alt+Del on this one.

For those who have no idea that Penny Arcade is a gaming comic or is not exactly up on all of the stupid games out there, or is aware of such things but does not give two shits, the Penny Arcade strip is a total non-sequitur. Is this supposed to be funny? Because it isn't, you know. It assumes a level of familiarity that if it's not there, it simply does not work on any level. (Personally, I still think the timing or whatever is way off on the damned thing even if you are familiar with Puzzle Quest, but I bitched about that already)

The Ctrl+Alt+Del one, on the other hand, does not make knowledge of the game a prerequisite to get the humor. In fact, it kind of explains it a bit so I have a slightly better understanding on what the fuck is going on. In fact, i think Yahtzee was dead wrong when he wrote:

Both comics identify the humour in the situation - that the rules of a game world seem absurd when applied to the real world - but while Penny Arcade understands that the crux of a joke should be reserved for the final panel, Ctrl-Alt-Del is apparently so excited about the idea that it blurts it out right away, leaving three more panels to flounder in excessive dialogue and pointlessness.

First of all, because since all gaming web comics apply real world logic to games with "humorous" results, this sort of shit hasn't been funny since Steve Jackson Games stopped publishing Space gamer back in 1985. It's old and not very funny. Particularly in this case. I think Yahtzee incorrectly identified where the "punch" is here, because if there is one in this situation, it isn't in the people playing some idiotic version of Chinese Checkers instead of fighting. At best that's dim at worst it makes no sense. I don't think Ctrl+Alt+Del is particularly funny, but I do think it was marginally funnier in this case.

 

[tailsandy]

26 pages is too much! So I'm gonna ask if anyone else here remembers "That's My Sonic!", one of those comics that was originally a sonic sprite comic, then became hand-drawn.

That was one of my first webcomics. There was another one I read, but I'd forgotten what it was called.

EDIT: It was possible that it was called BerserkerTails. I'm not 100% positive.

EDIT number 2: http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6/wtfmodtd6.jpg

Is this guy serious? He's giving somene a warning for spam because he explained a thread rule to him? Can you say, "ass-ramming dictatorship"?

 

[Plowking]

EDIT number 2: http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6/wtfmodtd6.jpg

Is this guy serious? He's giving somene a warning for spam because he explained a thread rule to him? Can you say, "ass-ramming dictatorship"?

It's always been like that on those forums - but the sheep are so up Tim's ass they go along with it, fearful of warning/banning reprisals.

They can of course police the forums any way they want to...the end result though should be that the only forum members remaining are Tim and his army of Tim-ass-ramming mods.

If anyone hasn't noticed, the forums were taken down, and brought back up, MINUS all the CAD related topics - it's gone! I suspect only members can see it now. One member had the guts to mention Yahtzee's video, but actually wrote that he 'apologises to Tim in advance'...how utterly pathetic.

@ Jack Spencer Jr
You make a valid point. But I got to thinking as I read the strips, what if you cut off all the extra panels of both strips and left only the first ones? Then presented them to the people.

Penny Arcade - you can see that a warrior is about to do battle with some evil monsters (in fact you can even add the 2nd panel in to see what he's fighting and the reader is still none the wiser.

CAD - well, what else is needed? The first panel explains it all, clearly the character on the left is not going to accept this as a form of battle. End result = obvious.

Your point about not knowing the game they are parodying is true, but if every single strip has to be verbosely explained to the reader then only people who don't know the game should bother reading past panel one. If you have to explain a joke, it's not funny.

Either way - the true awful generic rubbish that is the 'art' of CAD is highlighted so perfectly in that strip, even more so when compared to the stylish PA art of their strip in this instance. It's so bad that the character who gets stabbed in panel 3, STILL hasn't moved a muscle in panel 4.

Dupiclating art is very common (aka Red Meat) - but that's so well written the art is secondary. You can get away with bad art using great writing, but CAD is so poory written. Who wants to look at the same four panels over and over, each one crammed with badly written dialog?

 

[Baztrd]

@ Jack Spencer Jr.:

I somewhat see where you are coming from, but, I very much disagree. Those two comics perfectly illustrate why CAD is crap PA isn't.

The CAD comic is over-explained, drawn-out, mistimed and very, very, very poorly drawn. As Plowking points out, he explains the joke in panel 1, then goes on to make said joke. Why? You've just explained it... Let me try to put this into joke-telling perspective....

Joke: Punctuation. It's the difference between helping your uncle, Jack, off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

CAD Joke: You know how there's like, punctuation? Yes? And you know how if you change it around, it sometimes makes a sentence mean something else? Right, well that can be really funny! Really! Like, for instance, Jack, is a name, right? But it can also be a verb, when combined with off *sniggers* and it means a dirty then! Bwahaha! So you could say "help your uncle jack off a horse" instead of "help your uncle, Jack, off a horse"! HAHAHAHAHA!

I hope the difference is obvious...

And then, as said, there's the artwork. Or rather, there is in the PA comic, and there isn't in the CAD one. Now, a comic doesn't always need good artwork. Drawings can be used simply as a background for a joke. But then, your joke damnwell beter be good. Tim fails there. Epicly. In both comics the joke isn't very clever, but, PA makes something of it by combining it with some solid artwork.

Should a joke never need to be explained... I don't know, I think sometimes you can get away with a bit of explanation, but it's an art to do this without ruining the joke. Should everyone be able to get a joke, regardless of their knowledge of the subject? Hell no. If I decide to dedicate a comic to the antics of character in a videogame, I'd be writing this mostly for people who know said game. Sure, You can probably make a couple of jokes that everyone will get and laugh at, but "in-crowd" jokes will in the long run be inevitable. Also, they can be very, very funny, though not for everyone.

 

[Mr. Fister]

Something else to remember: Just because you don't find something funny doesn't mean nobody finds it funny.

 

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hey, guys. I continue to disagree. Well, in a nuanced way. In case I wasn't abundantly clear before, I don't think either comic is very funny, either in these example strips or the whole of their archives. (I tried reading the Ctrl+Alt+Del archives starting with the beginning and the first couple months worth of strips was talking about other web comics. I've found other web comics also do this for the first couple strips. Maybe they should remove those ones from the archives because that isn't very funny and will cause people to not bother with your web comic)

First of all, the joke about doing battle with someone using a odd version of Checkers or whatever the hell that thing is is not very funny in the first place. It's been done zillions of times before. "In Super Mario Bros. You hit your head on bricks to find coins but in the real world you'd just get a concussion. Ha ha." It wasn't very funny when Murphy's Rules appeared in the pages of Space Gamer back in the early 80's and it really hasn't gotten all that much better. You can't rely on this and just this to be funny, because it isn't. So it's all about the execution for this kind of thing.

Penny Arcade more or less relies on just this gag to be funny. In the interest of fairness, they do try a bit more than that, what with the mighty warrior spouting soliloquies and the giant rat thing growling menacingly to contrast with the two of them playing a board game. But, this doesn't work for me. Even after I know what the stupid game they're lampooning is. I'm not sure what it is but there are three panels to this particular strip and I am still looking for a fourth panel that has the actual punchline. In fact, I tend to look for another panel that has the punchline whenever I read Penny Arcade. It's like they were playing comic strip Iron Chef or something and time ran out before they could get to the actual punchline.

Now, to be fair, again, it may be their execution is what sucks here more than their structure. The cut from the two close-up to the two of them playing a board game in silhouette is actually kind of jarring. Maybe it needed a few more panels of the two of them rushing at each other emitting blood-thirsty battle cries before stopping to quietly play a board game. Something like that. That seems to be where they were going, but it doesn't really come across in a visceral way. But, doing that would be contrary to the cramped style where spatial relationships between people and object is anyone's guess that the strip has developed over the years.

Ctrl+Alt+Del, however, does not rely on the board game playing to be the actual gag of the strip so much as the interactions of the characters in response to this situation. The punchline of this strip is not that they are going to play a board game instead of actually fighting. The joke is that the one guy simply stabbed the other guy (third panel) and then that guy was more disappointed that they weren't going to play the board game instead of being more worried that he'd just been stabbed (fourth panel). The punchline is not "We're going to play this board game instead of fight." The punchline is "Aw, man. It took me an hour to set up the board."

Is it all that funny? No. Not particularly.

Is it predictable? Hell, yes.

But the fact remains that I got the faintest twinge of humor from the Ctrl+Alt+Del strip whereas Penny Arcade gave me nothing. (Incidentally, I described both strips to the wife and she did not laugh at the Penny Arcade one but did laugh at Ctrl+Alt+Del. I think that proves my point) It may be because I was looking for another panel after the lame board game joke was told in Penny Arcade and Ctrl+Alt+Del actually gave me that.

And the point I was making in the previous post and am hopefully clarifying here is that I think Yahtzee was dead wrong in saying that this comparison demonstrates what is wrong with Ctrl+Alt+Del because he misidentified where the punchline was. For Penny Arcade, they could have saved a lot of drawing time and just put the words "Hur hur Games don't make no sense Hur hur" up as a strip instead. Ctrl+Alt+Del used the, at best, mildly amusing joke about the board game as a spring board to set up the situation which led to a predictable but slightly more amusing end.

And before anyone thinks I'm defending Ctrl+Alt+Del and it's titwaggling creator or something stupid like that, let me reiterate that I don't like web comics in general and gaming web comics in particular. They aren't funny. So they're just like the comic strips in the newspaper. They aren't funny, either, with the possible exception of Rex Morgan M.D. Oh, that wacky Dr. Rex. The only difference is you have to print out a web comic before you can line a birdcage with it or use it to start a fire in your grill.

 

[Livi70590]

Zero Punctuation branches out, presumably to tick off everyone not in the gaming industry.


I Like.


Who else would like to see Yahtzee on a radio show resembling BBC Radio 5's Fighting Talk? (Obviously not involving sport.)

 

[David_Cat]

Oh that would be AWESOME !!

 

[fat american]

I have to say I think CAD is funnier.

 

[Plowking]

@ Jack Spencer Jr

Excellent points - and I think you're right about the punchline placement - they are both different joke attempts, not the same joke attempt. They are both unfunny, but I find the PA one more to my taste given a choice, due to the fact that CAD is always the same. Having read various CAD strips, all CAD strips are instantly unfunny as they are the same 'joke' repeated. Usually ends with character A stabbing, shooting, maiming etc. character B in some moronic way. Therefore CAD loses out everytime.

But that's not the issue, we're all in agreement, it is about the method of delivery, rather than the delivery itself. They aren't funny but depending on taste and other factors one would always win over another. It's very subjective in that regard.

 

[Shadowed Thief]

Umm, I bet a ton of people already said this, but Tim from CAD had a girlfriend who miscarried his unborn child. That's where he got the storyline from. Granted, it is a shift from the gaming humor but if you actually read all of the comics or at least enough to get the underlying storyline. Then you would understand that it wasn't all comics about games and then out of the clear blue sky a miscarriage is dumped in to make everyone sad, which is as how Yahtzee portrays it.

 

[Tempdude0]

@ Jack Spencer Jr.

Alrighty, first and foremost, no one is talking about how often a joke is made. It's the execution. If we're going by "Oh, so and so already did that." Then every comedy act possible has been done, with slight variations popping up in the future that only differ in that they reference things that exist then, but not now. How frequently a joke is made isn't that important compared to how the joke is told/expressed/what have you.

...So, your second paragraph is saying that you need the joke explained? Well, you know, if that's your bag man, whatever. Feel free to enjoy the brand of comedy you prefer, but when complaining about nuance, the subject at hand should have a level of subtlety. Both comics lack this in the extreme. As for the next paragraph, what would those two panels have accomplished? Yes, we all understand that they're going to fight. We don't need someone to explain the concept further with words OR pretty pictures. A warrior has drawn his weapon and recited threatening poetry in the presence of a fierce monster. He's either going to try to kill it or get into its pants. Why would the "rushing panels" add something more?

The gag of the strip is that A) Stabbing. The "punch-line" is so telegraphed it may as well have been a fighter in the "Punch-Out" line of games...And don't bring up "The wife" or "My buddy". That's a fallacious argument, and shall not fly. If we're going that route, I may as well reference "My buddy" that laughs at the name Sean Jones...The name isn't inherently funny, but he finds it so. We all know at least two or three people with similar tastes, but that only proves that we hang out with people we can relate to. Just to clarify, I'm not a fan of ANYONE using arguments like that, period.

To summarize further, CAD could have been "Dur hur hur, stabby" which isn't at all played out. In fact, we can do this with a bunch of comedians. Carlin could be "Dur hur hur, swearing" Robin Williams could be "Dur hur hur MANIC!" and Carlos Mencia could be "Dur hur hur, Dee de dee"...huh. Ignoring that last one, predictability shouldn't play a role in a joke, except to defy said predictability. If you know what's coming, it's not funny. As it's been stated, a punch line should hit you and run away. If you see a punch coming, unless you have terrible reflexes, you're going to get out of the way or at least TRY to move. Same thing with a joke. If you see it coming it really shouldn't hit its mark.

@ Shadow Thief

Read the comics archive and you'll see what I'm referring to in the next couple paragraphs. Regardless of the source of the story (Which...You know, I'm not even going into THAT aspect again.) the comic relied heavily on "Gaming Humor" and only switched to story arcs every once in a while. You could almost feel an audible *clunk* when it shifted back and forth. The miscarriage storyline was also in no way referenced as a way to "make people sad" It was more "You'd have to be a bloody idiot, and a jagoff to boot to even THINK about doing a story like this." To cheapen the whole deal further, I'm going to relate what you've said to something else...Captain Planet.

"Granted, it is a shift from the environmental message, but if you actually watch all of the episodes or at least enough to get the underlying storyline. Then you would understand that it wasn't all episodes about the environment and then out of the clear blue sky a gang violence or aids story is dumped in..."

See what I'm talking about?

 

[Radelaide]

Is it just me, or are some of you just being idiots? Dude, Ctrl+Alt+Del can either be good or bad. It's a little something called personal opinion. 15 pages in and I already think Tempdude0 or whatever your name is, just remove yourself from the gene pool, please? Arguing on the interwebs isn't hardcore, or awesome or whatever. Either stop, or remove =]

Btw, Yahtzee did only refer to gaming webcomics. If you want a decent read: <a ref=www.questionablecontent.net>Questionable Content.

 

[Jack Spencer Jr]

...

I was going to reply to you, but then I realized you aren't worth it.

Tah.

 

[Kovash86]

Is it just me, or are some of you just being idiots? Dude, Ctrl+Alt+Del can either be good or bad. It's a little something called personal opinion. 15 pages in and I already think Tempdude0 or whatever your name is, just remove yourself from the gene pool, please? Arguing on the interwebs isn't hardcore, or awesome or whatever. Either stop, or remove =]

Btw, Yahtzee did only refer to gaming webcomics. If you want a decent read: <a ref=www.questionablecontent.net>Questionable Content.

Hells yeah QC is a really good read.

Spoiler

Hanners FTW

 

[MasterDS]

God every single strip of CAD I've seen has been aweful XD A determined lack of proper punch lines, poorly executed violent humor, and comics like that one where Buckley proclamed himself the King of All Gamers rather than a Generic Corperation. He reminds me of that utterly demented Game Designer who wheres a crown and insists that people call of Lord British. I mean the fact that's he's horribly fucking pretentious fuckwit and all of his art is essentially copy and paste art with a google images background isn't a deal breaker exactly, but seeing as he can't do the things that matter right it's just comes off as the most intollerable part of his whole operation (in the arts case it comes off as intollerally lazy), not to mention that a miscarrage arc is the worst idea ever. I honestly thought it was one of Yahtzee's brilliantly used exagerations, as no one could possibly be that stupid.

Still though, my favorite part of this thread was how some CAD Troll came in about 13 pages back or so and made the shocking discovery. Not all of the complaints in this video apply to CAD! And therefor this review isn't a very good constant slight against CAD that claims it's not an exlusive slight against CAD because it doesn't constantly critize CAD, instead only taking the one direct blow to the worst possible idea a Webcomic Artist's ever had.