Zero Punctuation: Webcomics

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I disagree, that's what Penny Arcade USED to do, I provide counterpoints and examples where Penny Arcade has, unlike other gaming webcomics, truly broken the mold of what a "gaming" webcomic can do... and still be funny.

Well, my comments and criticisms were limited to the two example strips linked above. Although the examples are from about a year ago. But, maybe they were having an off day or they were on their way to lunch or something. I don't know.

 

[Shadowed Thief]

Really though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Nobody is either right or wrong in defending or trashing a webcomic or for that matter, yahtzee. If you like something or dislike something, are you going to change your opinion after listening to some asshole that you've never met, reading a webcomic by some asshole you've never met, or reading a forum post by some asshole you've ever met?
I did sort of defend CAD in an earlier post but I like it and I was just saying something that I said was important to the issue. Yahtzee says the shit that he does to intentionally piss people off and spark arguments like this. But in reality his opinion doesn't count for shit and neither does anyone else's but yours. The End.

 

[Lipid]

Hey, guys. I continue to disagree. Well, in a nuanced way. In case I wasn't abundantly clear before, I don't think either comic is very funny, either in these example strips or the whole of their archives. (I tried reading the Ctrl+Alt+Del archives starting with the beginning and the first couple months worth of strips was talking about other web comics. I've found other web comics also do this for the first couple strips. Maybe they should remove those ones from the archives because that isn't very funny and will cause people to not bother with your web comic)

First of all, the joke about doing battle with someone using a odd version of Checkers or whatever the hell that thing is is not very funny in the first place. It's been done zillions of times before. "In Super Mario Bros. You hit your head on bricks to find coins but in the real world you'd just get a concussion. Ha ha." It wasn't very funny when Murphy's Rules appeared in the pages of Space Gamer back in the early 80's and it really hasn't gotten all that much better. You can't rely on this and just this to be funny, because it isn't. So it's all about the execution for this kind of thing.

Penny Arcade more or less relies on just this gag to be funny. In the interest of fairness, they do try a bit more than that, what with the mighty warrior spouting soliloquies and the giant rat thing growling menacingly to contrast with the two of them playing a board game. But, this doesn't work for me. Even after I know what the stupid game they're lampooning is. I'm not sure what it is but there are three panels to this particular strip and I am still looking for a fourth panel that has the actual punchline. In fact, I tend to look for another panel that has the punchline whenever I read Penny Arcade. It's like they were playing comic strip Iron Chef or something and time ran out before they could get to the actual punchline.

Now, to be fair, again, it may be their execution is what sucks here more than their structure. The cut from the two close-up to the two of them playing a board game in silhouette is actually kind of jarring. Maybe it needed a few more panels of the two of them rushing at each other emitting blood-thirsty battle cries before stopping to quietly play a board game. Something like that. That seems to be where they were going, but it doesn't really come across in a visceral way. But, doing that would be contrary to the cramped style where spatial relationships between people and object is anyone's guess that the strip has developed over the years.

Ctrl+Alt+Del, however, does not rely on the board game playing to be the actual gag of the strip so much as the interactions of the characters in response to this situation. The punchline of this strip is not that they are going to play a board game instead of actually fighting. The joke is that the one guy simply stabbed the other guy (third panel) and then that guy was more disappointed that they weren't going to play the board game instead of being more worried that he'd just been stabbed (fourth panel). The punchline is not "We're going to play this board game instead of fight." The punchline is "Aw, man. It took me an hour to set up the board."

Is it all that funny? No. Not particularly.

Is it predictable? Hell, yes.

But the fact remains that I got the faintest twinge of humor from the Ctrl+Alt+Del strip whereas Penny Arcade gave me nothing. (Incidentally, I described both strips to the wife and she did not laugh at the Penny Arcade one but did laugh at Ctrl+Alt+Del. I think that proves my point) It may be because I was looking for another panel after the lame board game joke was told in Penny Arcade and Ctrl+Alt+Del actually gave me that.

And the point I was making in the previous post and am hopefully clarifying here is that I think Yahtzee was dead wrong in saying that this comparison demonstrates what is wrong with Ctrl+Alt+Del because he misidentified where the punchline was. For Penny Arcade, they could have saved a lot of drawing time and just put the words "Hur hur Games don't make no sense Hur hur" up as a strip instead. Ctrl+Alt+Del used the, at best, mildly amusing joke about the board game as a spring board to set up the situation which led to a predictable but slightly more amusing end.

And before anyone thinks I'm defending Ctrl+Alt+Del and it's titwaggling creator or something stupid like that, let me reiterate that I don't like web comics in general and gaming web comics in particular. They aren't funny. So they're just like the comic strips in the newspaper. They aren't funny, either, with the possible exception of Rex Morgan M.D. Oh, that wacky Dr. Rex. The only difference is you have to print out a web comic before you can line a birdcage with it or use it to start a fire in your grill.

Most (if not all) of this is just your opinion and doesn't at all argue an objective point. You don't like comics? Fine, but there are millions of people who do. PA and CAD are being made for a living so they're obviously pushing someones buttons correctly.

Something I noticed, though:

The warrior wasn't talking in the form of a soliloquy as he was talking to the rat, not himself. Call me pedantic but I just wanted to point that out.

 

[Reaces]

Hey, guys. I continue to disagree. Well, in a nuanced way. In case I wasn't abundantly clear before, I don't think either comic is very funny, either in these example strips or the whole of their archives. (I tried reading the Ctrl+Alt+Del archives starting with the beginning and the first couple months worth of strips was talking about other web comics. I've found other web comics also do this for the first couple strips. Maybe they should remove those ones from the archives because that isn't very funny and will cause people to not bother with your web comic)

First of all, the joke about doing battle with someone using a odd version of Checkers or whatever the hell that thing is is not very funny in the first place. It's been done zillions of times before. "In Super Mario Bros. You hit your head on bricks to find coins but in the real world you'd just get a concussion. Ha ha." It wasn't very funny when Murphy's Rules appeared in the pages of Space Gamer back in the early 80's and it really hasn't gotten all that much better. You can't rely on this and just this to be funny, because it isn't. So it's all about the execution for this kind of thing.

In my opinion you need to see this joke in perspective.
The idea behind it I thought was to appeal to people who had just spend some time in the game the jokes about. And after a few scenario's in which you see people ending disputes which games of bejewelled or whatever it was, I cant remember, you face animals. Which makes no sense whatsoever, but the fights are still plot driven, so you still have a reason to fight these creatures... in checkers or whatever.

In PA its not so much a joke as in "haha in real life this wouldn't happen" as "seriously, have you thought about what you spent 2 hours doing? batteling rats in bejewelled?".
While in CAD it is as usual a bad joke "lol you're challenged to a board game" followed by another bad joke incase you didn't understand the first one "lol he stabbed you" followed by a third bad joke "haha he didn't notice getting stabbed".

 

[Donkeyboy]

All i'm going to say is that I am dissapointed that this episode turned out the way it did. It had the potential to be a lighthearted and cheerful poke at a few webcomics that we all know, love or hate, and to be left at that. But unfortunatley it seems that instead of that it ended up as just short of a personal attack on a single comic and it's artist. I know people have already said words to this effect but surely the fact that this episode has had as much negative feedback as it has shows that it could be, and has been, taken the wrong way. I really hope that there aren't going to be any more episodes like this as I usually enjoy ZeroPunctuation alot, I just hope that Yahtzee was having a particularly bad day when he wrote it because we all become alot more hostile than we mean to be when we have had a bad day.

 

[asdaa]

Yahtzee did put together a rather lengthy editorial on his website about CAD, and he's written about webcomics before.

Yes, in the 23/3/08: You Cad entry on his front page he harped a bit on how CAD sucks and used an example of this Ctrl+Alt+Del strip [http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070718] and this Penny Arcade strip [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28] as they both make the same obvious joke about Puzzle Quest, some game I've never heard of and apparently hope I never have the misfortune of playing.

Thing is, though, I disagreed with Yahtzee's assessment. First of all, I didn't think either of them were funny at all because gaming humor comics are like a whoopie cushion that doesn't make any noise. But if pressed, I would have to give the advantage to Ctrl+Alt+Del on this one.

For those who have no idea that Penny Arcade is a gaming comic or is not exactly up on all of the stupid games out there, or is aware of such things but does not give two shits, the Penny Arcade strip is a total non-sequitur. Is this supposed to be funny? Because it isn't, you know. It assumes a level of familiarity that if it's not there, it simply does not work on any level. (Personally, I still think the timing or whatever is way off on the damned thing even if you are familiar with Puzzle Quest, but I bitched about that already)

The Ctrl+Alt+Del one, on the other hand, does not make knowledge of the game a prerequisite to get the humor. In fact, it kind of explains it a bit so I have a slightly better understanding on what the fuck is going on. In fact, i think Yahtzee was dead wrong when he wrote:

Both comics identify the humour in the situation - that the rules of a game world seem absurd when applied to the real world - but while Penny Arcade understands that the crux of a joke should be reserved for the final panel, Ctrl-Alt-Del is apparently so excited about the idea that it blurts it out right away, leaving three more panels to flounder in excessive dialogue and pointlessness.

First of all, because since all gaming web comics apply real world logic to games with "humorous" results, this sort of shit hasn't been funny since Steve Jackson Games stopped publishing Space gamer back in 1985. It's old and not very funny. Particularly in this case. I think Yahtzee incorrectly identified where the "punch" is here, because if there is one in this situation, it isn't in the people playing some idiotic version of Chinese Checkers instead of fighting. At best that's dim at worst it makes no sense. I don't think Ctrl+Alt+Del is particularly funny, but I do think it was marginally funnier in this case.

Exactly - it requires that you know the game beforehand. That's why its a GAMING comic.

 

[Jerakal]

Aside from Penny-Arcade there are maybe... 4 webcomics worth reading on the internet, and even that might be generous.


Well said Yahtee.

 

[Booze Zombie]

The Penny Arcade strips are easy to "decipher" with a quick perusal of the news post accompanying the strip, which can be easily accessed, as the news button will take you to the news for the strip you're browsing at the time.

This feature is not utilised by CAD, which means you have to search an archive if you want info concerning a particular page.

 

[svenhoek]

I was hoping I would see SOMETHING on how terrible CAD recent story was, I did not expect it from yahtzee

Hilarious. You touched on the exact feelings I had when I was reading em. WTF was he thinking?

That said, I did expect to see something on PA, which is my all time favorite webcomic, but was kinda sad to see only a warped sort of praise for them. I guess yahtzee's motto is if you have something nice to say, dont say anything at all.

 

[Nixonator]

Hey there everyone! I am a new poster and I would just like to say fuck you! Fuck all of you who constantly devote your time to dragging out an argument what will come to no end EVER. Fuck you everyone who believes that in the grand scheme of web comic generation thinks that their opinion is actually worth a damn! Fuck you you who believes that Penny Arcade is in fact a steaming pile of bullshit just because you can write ten or twelve paragraphs saying that it is! Fuck you those who believe that bashing CAD is a great way to relieve their stress and assimilate themselves into the higher forum order even though it merely results in generating more web hits for Tim Buckley!

I've made my point and I expect banning but I don't honestly care. Spew all you want.

 

[Epic Wizard]

Personally I rather like CAD and appreciate it's dealing with a serious topic which is, like it or not, good story telling.

I would REALLY like to know how many of you have EVER read a real comic. Not a daily comic like Garfield or a web comic but a genuine five-dollar-printed-comic-book comic. While I can't say I have read many of them I do follow their plots and, let me tell you, a miscarriage isn't half as serious as some of the things that print comic books have delved into in recent years or even before the modern time. Seriously look it up and the please shut up about it polluting your laugh-a-day medium or about how crappy web comics are because they aren't (insert whatever you personally happen to think is better but other people may or may not think is crap here). I personally praise Tim for dealing with a serious subject (actually more than one) in a serious and realistic manner. We are well past the days where Ethan would be randomly shot by arrows and then show up in the next strip people so either leave QUIETLY or stay and act intelligently. I really don't see any other civil options and if anyone has any suggestions I would be open to them.

As for this whole question of Tim Buckley and him sending pics of his anatomy to kids: Why haven't we heard anything in the way of legal action from this? If it had really happened and there was proof then we WOULD be seeing legal action.

 

[C-Sprach]

I personally praise Tim for dealing with a serious subject (actually more than one) in a serious and realistic manner. We are well past the days where Ethan would be randomly shot by arrows and then show up in the next strip people so either leave QUIETLY or stay and act intelligently.

I'm sorry, but awkwardly breeching a serious subject for a few strips then dropping it entirely does not equate to "dealing with it in a serious manner". I agree that if CAD were to dedicate, let's say, 100 strips to the miscarriage story arc, then MAYBE Buckley would be able to flesh it out in an engaging and realistic way (oh, who am I kidding, it's Tim Buckley...) However, as it stands, all he's done is exactly what Yahtzee said in the video: downplay the situation to the point that it is both absurd and disrespectful towards the subject matter.

Obviously you haven't read a whole lot of "real" comics, because if you did, you would know that those writers actually pour a lot of thought into their characters, developing them over time, acknowledging and confronting their flaws while testing their strengths. They do not insert a handful of carbon cutouts, spewing the same inane, pointless dialog strip after strip. Seriously, have you read CAD's dialog? Every unsympathetic retard speaks exactly the same way ALL THE TIME! I'm not even gonna mention the facial expressions. Although you do bring a good point. Everybody stop reading CAD and go read The Sandman or Hellboy or something that won't numb your brain.

Hey there everyone! I am a new poster and I would just like to say fuck you! Fuck all of you who constantly devote your time to dragging out an argument what will come to no end EVER. Fuck you everyone who believes that in the grand scheme of web comic generation thinks that their opinion is actually worth a damn! Fuck you you who believes that Penny Arcade is in fact a steaming pile of bullshit just because you can write ten or twelve paragraphs saying that it is! Fuck you those who believe that bashing CAD is a great way to relieve their stress and assimilate themselves into the higher forum order even though it merely results in generating more web hits for Tim Buckley!

I've made my point and I expect banning but I don't honestly care. Spew all you want.

Is it hypocritical of me to agree with you at this point?

 

[GuerrillaClock]

Tim Buckley is possibly the most enormous douche ever and I refused to read his comic a long time ago out of principle after his abuse of Wikipedia. However, the forums were a good source of intelligent discussion - the people on there seemed to be able to handle a decent debate. Having watched the review, I then went on CAD and read the miscarriage story to see what the fuss was about, and plainly it was woefully written, with no emotional build-up, meaning the comic went from "wacky" to serious in four panels. If he wants to mature as a writer, then suddenly throwing in serious subject matter is not how you do it. Serious stories do not equate to mature writing automatically! I went on the forums and joined what I thought was a reasonable discussion about the comic, only to find myself perma-banned for expressing my views. I want to make it clear I never mentioned his sexuality, his mother or any insulting terms.
I'm aware that this may have been covered before on these forums, but the man riles me to no end and I felt an urge to let the world know what a talentless, arrogant prick the man is. To ignore criticism is one thing, to delete it entirely, wipe away the people who made it and THEN claim he doesn't do it is something else entirely.
If I posted on here saying "The Escapist isn't that well written/this article here didn't fit in with the rest" or something would I be perma-banned? I think not.

 

[GraegoriHauss]

GUYS! GUYS!

Holy crap, I just saw Tim Buckley at the beach, right? GUESS WHAT HE DID? HE JUMPED OVER A SHARK ON WATER-SKIS!!

Metaphorically, that is.

 

[JustAnotherGuyTooCoolForOutside]

I love this for many different reasons so i had to make a post

First i think the video is hilarious , made me laugh anyway

I also enjoy the posts that i read , does everyone that post feel that their opinion cares?
TBH I think CAD is a great comic and tim can do what he likes , if u dont like than either make a funny video about it ( wonder if thats been done before) if u dont like it , sure give ur opinion , but whats with some of the posts ive read

"CAD has gone so farup its own arse it can stick its hand out of its mouth"
Funny - Not Really
Clever - No
Needed - No , really not , no point , in fact i think that person has his head so far up his arse that he can`t see what rubbish posts he is makin as the , ah w8 im being hyppocrytical or however u spell it, i dont really care TBH, i even decided i would make my name to be something u guys wud all think " what a nob " because i really think that one day , Yatzee will line you all up and give you the rewards you deserve for brown nosing him

As for me , funny comic , But that doesnt mean i cant enjoy CAD or i must suddenly kiss ass

Please stop , or no in fact carry on , u make my reads more interesting as you no doubt think i have nothing to do

As for Tim`s story , it doesnt make him sadistic or horrible or an arse , all he did was put something into his comic which most nerds dont like because it doesnt make em feel good about themselves because they cant
A) Blow their load
B) Link it to their friends and say "oo guys this is funny"
C) Relate to it

Ah i think im done , maybe ill post something new , maybe another rant

Gratz yatzee , ur a great person , your videos are funny , but i would rather have followers made out used toilet roll than some of these guys , i apologise for just the one example whoever it was , theres loads ,

Now im done , I will w8 for that happy reply

 

[Lord_Seth]

As for Tim`s story , it doesnt make him sadistic or horrible or an arse , all he did was put something into his comic which most nerds dont like because it doesnt make em feel good about themselves because they cant
A) Blow their load
B) Link it to their friends and say "oo guys this is funny"
C) Relate to it

People don't dislike the miscarriage bit because it "doesn't make them feel good about themselves" or any of those other things; people dislike it because IT DOESN'T FIT THE STRIP AT ALL. CAD was a lighthearted gaming strip beforehand. While many people hated it, there was something about it that quite a few people liked. It's not smart to throw out what made people like the strip and awkwardly insert an extremely serious topic. But even worse, it didn't go anywhere with it. It's also disrespectful of the subject matter. Now I actually kinda liked CAD, but this miscarriage was a truly terrible idea. It doesn't work at any level in the strip. I really don't feel like restating all the reasons it was terrible as I've done it multiple times already in this thread, but the entire thing was bungled so badly it's about as bad as that whole "orc rape" arc of Dominic Deegan.

Anyway, the reason I came here was because I was wondering if anyone saw today's FoxTrot comic [http://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot], as it kind of relates to this topic (take note: Bill Amend is a guy who actually knows how to make good nerd and geek jokes). Anyone happen to know what "The Ecstasy of Tech" is supposed to be a reference to though? I recognize the others (Penny Arcade, PvP, and xkcd)

 

[Tempdude0]

I love this for many different reasons so i had to make a post

First i think the video is hilarious , made me laugh anyway

I also enjoy the posts that i read , does everyone that post feel that their opinion cares?
TBH I think CAD is a great comic and tim can do what he likes , if u dont like than either make a funny video about it ( wonder if thats been done before) if u dont like it , sure give ur opinion , but whats with some of the posts ive read

"CAD has gone so farup its own arse it can stick its hand out of its mouth"
Funny - Not Really
Clever - No
Needed - No , really not , no point , in fact i think that person has his head so far up his arse that he can`t see what rubbish posts he is makin as the , ah w8 im being hyppocrytical or however u spell it, i dont really care TBH, i even decided i would make my name to be something u guys wud all think " what a nob " because i really think that one day , Yatzee will line you all up and give you the rewards you deserve for brown nosing him

As for me , funny comic , But that doesnt mean i cant enjoy CAD or i must suddenly kiss ass

Please stop , or no in fact carry on , u make my reads more interesting as you no doubt think i have nothing to do

As for Tim`s story , it doesnt make him sadistic or horrible or an arse , all he did was put something into his comic which most nerds dont like because it doesnt make em feel good about themselves because they cant
A) Blow their load
B) Link it to their friends and say "oo guys this is funny"
C) Relate to it

Ah i think im done , maybe ill post something new , maybe another rant

Gratz yatzee , ur a great person , your videos are funny , but i would rather have followers made out used toilet roll than some of these guys , i apologise for just the one example whoever it was , theres loads ,

Now im done , I will w8 for that happy reply

I can't believe this thread is still going...Well, I can, but I'm surprised it's going longer than the Metal Gear one. Eh, whatever.

Anyway, assuming you're referring to my post, it was, and I quote:
"..Buckley is, and has always been so far up his own ass I'm surprised he hasn't warped physics and vomited up his own head."

It was a statement not meant to be funny or clever, but to be used an example of the ABSURD level of Buckleys ego. If he were merely, I don't know, normal "head up his ass" level, I wouldn't have tossed in the "warping physics and so on" line. Absurd statements made during an argument are frequently only used to parallel an equal level of absurdity or to drive home a point. Oh, and it's "hypocritical". You may want to work with firefox as it has a built in right-click spellcheck if more spelling problems persist.

Gotta say though, the name is pretty odd. Considering even the most bearded-neck in all the land makes it outside to socialize occasionally, I'm not getting where you're going.

That said, I'm curious as to why people believe that because some of us agree with Yahtzee it's brown nosing. Personally, I disagree with him every so often but I don't care enough to get my nickers in a twist trying to defend against valid criticism. I just go "Oh, well, yeah that is the case...But I still love it anyway." Case in point, Super Smash Brothers Brawl. I enjoy the game, but I also see the points made, what with them being accurate and all.

As an aside to that mini-tangent, people read plenty of books that don't make them "feel good" or "Blow their load/funny etc./relate to" Take these for example:

The Ender Series - A series starting with the loss of innocence and the genocide of what is essentially a peaceful race. Said genocide would have been easily averted if not for the language barrier between the two. It moves onward to more death of loved ones and heartbreak, but is held up by the idea of working toward a greater good, in which case individual sacrifice is necessary. I suppose you could say that "Working toward a greater good" could make people feel better, but not quite in the way you're describing.

Silver Surfer "Requiem" - This should fill in that guy who referred to reading "real" comics. It's easily one of the most heartbreaking mini-series I've ever read and most assuredly won't make someone "feel good" because it centers around the almost godlike character DYING GRUESOMELY! Seriously, it's so amazingly beautiful in both art and writing that if you don't at least tear up at the end, you don't have a soul.

The Sandman - Read it, and take a look at the events surrounding Daniel Hall and the end of the series. Hippolyta 'Lyta' Hall reacts in a way that a mother, or anyone for that matter, would if she found out her child was gone. Now child abduction and miscarriage are two VASTLY different topics, but it gives you and idea of how a grieving mother should be acting (Assuming you ignore the "craaazy fantasy" aspect and focus only on her emotions and line of thought.). That aside, the story can be summed up as *SPOILERS* the most convoluted suicide ever *END SPOILERS* I can guarantee there's only a select few people who could relate to Morpheus, and even those who can wouldn't really call it a "feel good" piece.

Just throwing all this out there. I somehow doubt I'll be getting a response, or a rational one at least. C'est la vie.

To Lord_Seth, please refrain from mentioning the "orc rape" storyline ever, forever. The fact that some are fans of it still pains me in ways I can't accurately describe with words...It's best left forgotten. That said, I'm curious as to "the ecstasy of Tech" as well. I can't think of any that it would be.

 

[Sho_Minamimoto]

I am a fan of CAD and I thought the digs at it were funny.

Anyone else think that Buckley is going to retaliate in his comic? I sure hope so.

*grabs popcorn*

I doubt it. Tim is too mature

You gotta be pretty mature to show your cock to a 14 year old amirite?

 

[nickkcin]

good effort yatzee!, as always, i enjoyed it very much!

 

[GuerrillaClock]

Fact is, though, Buckley is up his own arse. You have to be not to allow any form of criticism WHATSOEVER on your forums. Hell, the man sits on wikipedia practically all day and instantly edits any criticism at all. The only reason there is a criticism section is because the admins told him off.
Anyone on his forums who is even in a thread mentioning his Warcraft guild, the cock showing incident or "Webcomics Appreciation Day" (which made Tim a laughing stock because he made up some kind of warped national holiday just to fellate his own ego) is perma-banned.
The purpose of a forum is to allow reasonable debate, and Tim restricts (well, removes) anyones' right to have a reasonable debate about his comic.
Also, he shows he penis to underage girls.
Or has that been mentioned already?