Zero Punctuation: Webcomics

[Worsle]

Rebochan no humour is not entirely subjective, just like art is not entirely subjective. Humour does have rules, it might be a little loose with them but they do exist. Buckley does more make a good 4 panel joke, he will drop the punch line to early leaving the rest of the comic as a waist, timing is one of the most important things in comedy. Comics are also a visual medium, the art is important to the joke (does not have to be great but has to be fitting) copied art just does not cut it if you want people to identify with the characters. I would like to see you to go up to a professional comedian and tell them there is no such thing as a good joke only opinions.

Oh and the AD forums are back up. Buckley's reply? That he will never listen to criticism making him any thing but an artist.

 

[Copter400]

I maintain that CAD is not funny to anyone with a well-developed sense of humor. Finding CAD funny does not neccesarily mean you are unintelligent, but I believe it means you do not have a good concept of humor. Comic timing in particular is apparently an alien concept to Buckley and his fans. For some reason, he also feels compelled to explain the obvious, perhaps because some of his fans really are just a bit too slow to get the joke otherwise. He also tends to make jokes that have already been made (and better) all over the internet, though he only does this on occasion

Now see, I maintain that people who feel the need to lecture others on something as subjective as a sense of humor, decrying that one thing is "funny" and another "isn't" in some vague manner that ultimately boils down to "My opinion is the only one that is right and I am constantly threatened by the concept of disagreement" really lose the crux of their argument because they can't just stop at criticism of the work. They need to include base insults about its fandom.

Yeah. CAD is bad, because his fans are stupid. That's THE reason, and yes, ALL his fans are stupid.

Damn, it's hard to sound sarcastic through text.

 

[Baztrd]

Video was quite entertaining, but not as funny as the 850-comment thread that it spawned Yes the guy is ranting... that seems to be his "thing". I happen to like rants like that, but appreciate that some find them annoying (or so people keep telling me when I'm on one...)

CAD is, in my opinion, poorly drawn and very, very poorly written... From what I've read of it, the joke is usually "see the stupid gamer be a prick and be proud of it, haha". This is even less funny then normal when it's aplied to a subject such as miscarriage...

Most webcomics due truly suck, why? Well, if they were really good, would they still only be webcomics?

Personally, I only regularly check GUcomics and Applegeeks. Both because of the artwork mostly, though sometimes they can be quite funny as well. There might be more out there that are great, but I don't know them

What I don't get is why everyone is getting so upset about both this clip and Tim Buckley... Don't like the clip? Don't watch the next one... Don't like Tim? Don't read his webcomic... problem solved!

The internet has given many people a creative outlet, for better or for worse... Overall I'm happy with this, since amongst all the crap some gems can be found from time to time.

The trick is to find and appreciate the gems, and avoid the crap Just like in real life!

 

[TZer0]

This was pure awesome. CAD deserves getting kicked in the head.. in fact.. I'm going to make an exception.. I'm going to go on the CAD forums to see wether someone has reacted there.

 

[rebochan]

Rebochan no humour is not entirely subjective, just like art is not entirely subjective. Humour does have rules, it might be a little loose with them but they do exist. Buckley does more make a good 4 panel joke, he will drop the punch line to early leaving the rest of the comic as a waist, timing is one of the most important things in comedy. Comics are also a visual medium, the art is important to the joke (does not have to be great but has to be fitting) copied art just does not cut it if you want people to identify with the characters. I would like to see you to go up to a professional comedian and tell them there is no such thing as a good joke only opinions.

But see, those *are* valid critiques and I never said people shouldn't make them. My only beef is when someone feels that they haven't gone far enough and need to personally insult those who disagree with them. Well, that and the hatred for CAD shown here makes me wonder if Tim Buckley may have shot a few sainted mothers or instigated the Holocaust. Seriously people...it's just a webcomic.

Anyway, the main difference here is that one is an attempt to show why something is or isn't working. The other is just base insults against those who disagree. You may notice I never got on Yahtzee for this - because he's not exactly subtle that he's expressing his opinion and the entire short was his justifications for it. He certainly rips on fans, but when you describe yourself as a general misanthrope week after week, it's actually funny and not just a bunch of low blows.

Oh and the AD forums are back up. Buckley's reply? That he will never listen to criticism making him any thing but an artist.

He may be a forum nazi, but the last few times I got curious and dug through his forums, they were completely troll infested. No, it wasn't criticism - it was just rampant flaming. I had seen that threads of legitimate criticism (i.e. unrealistic, bad attempt to change tone) were not locked. Meanwhile there were at least five threads from the same self-righteous troll screaming about his freedom of speech being taken away because he couldn't start threads calling Tim a douchebag.

And you know, I do admit that the difference between "preserving the integrity of art" and "refusing to take criticism" always seems to fall under whether you like the artist in question. John Krisfalusci's prima donna antics are notorious, but he's hailed as a creative genius. Tim Buckley...not so much. Actually, I think somebody had the balls to compare him to Robert Mugabe in this thread. Yea...if you make a legitimate argument about the comic, like criticising its art, story direction, lack of humor, that's one thing. You compare the author to an African dictator, you're not exactly showing off your massive intellect there.

 

[Plowking]

I'd liken TB and CAD to a cult leader who has built up a congregation of worshippers controlled by their leader due to their own lack of identity, in such that they need to feel they belong and are contributing something to the said cult of CAD.

TB controls the image of CAD from within his boundries as best he can - meaning mass censorship. He has to maintain his position, and will never improve or get 'funny' due to his acceptance of his current status.

That is the basis upon which CAD has been built.

 

[Stammer]

I really don't see why so many people are getting so worked-up about this. He's not bashing CAD. In fact, he barely even hints about that as a specific web comic. He's talking about comics in general.

A friend of mine read an article that was almost the same thing as Yahtzee's review, though. He showed it to me and it actually looks like Yahtzee didn't really come up with an original video here... think maybe he plagiarized?

I'll get the URL to the article if I can find it again.

 

[rebochan]

I'd liken TB and CAD to a cult leader who has built up a congregation of worshippers controlled by their leader due to their own lack of identity, in such that they need to feel they belong and are contributing something to the said cult of CAD.

I can't help but see a similar mindset reflected here. Except with the added irony that the "cult leader" is pretty hostile to the concept and expresses it at every opportunity.

TB controls the image of CAD from within his boundries as best he can - meaning mass censorship.

Oh for god's sake...when Tim Buckley starts driving little black vans up to people's houses and kidnapping dissenters and harvesting their organs in prison, you'll have a "mass censorship" argument. But I'm sorry, no matter how many times internet drama queens cry "censorship!" when their posts are locked or deleted, that still does not violate their human rights. It does make them look like crybabies though. For god's sake, it's his bandwidth. If he wants to play forum police on his space, its his right. With all the free methods of communication out there, you'd think these internet slackers would have come up with a better method than crying about it. Even John Solomon knows how to set up a blog.

He has to maintain his position, and will never improve or get 'funny' due to his acceptance of his current status.

That is the basis upon which CAD has been built.

i.e. Webcomics are Serious Business.

 

[rebochan]

I really don't see why so many people are getting so worked-up about this. He's not bashing CAD. In fact, he barely even hints about that as a specific web comic. He's talking about comics in general.

The connection is mainly made because of the mention of the miscarriage plot that made the Internet explode, and because he's written at length in the past of his hatred of CAD in much the same terms. It's not unreasonable to assume this video was a logical extension of it. Though it's also incredibly sad how with the context stripped out, he could still be talking about any number of other webcomics out there.

A friend of mine read an article that was almost the same thing as Yahtzee's review, though. He showed it to me and it actually looks like Yahtzee didn't really come up with an original video here... think maybe he plagiarized?

I'll get the URL to the article if I can find it again.

Yahtzee did put together a rather lengthy editorial on his website about CAD, and he's written about webcomics before.

 

[Plowking]

@rebochan

I love it when things are taken literally - but the parallels stand.

He can do what he wants with his comic, forum, bandwidith, whatever - but the parallels stand.

I'm simply explaining, in a way MOST people can understand, the nature of the CAD operation. It's clear, and simple, and supported by the evidence of repeated behaviour.

So now, if you understand that as intended, you can make a more intelligent post than your previous one.

 

[Stammer]

I really don't see why so many people are getting so worked-up about this. He's not bashing CAD. In fact, he barely even hints about that as a specific web comic. He's talking about comics in general.

The connection is mainly made because of the mention of the miscarriage plot that made the Internet explode, and because he's written at length in the past of his hatred of CAD in much the same terms. It's not unreasonable to assume this video was a logical extension of it. Though it's also incredibly sad how with the context stripped out, he could still be talking about any number of other webcomics out there.
That makes a lot more sense now. Though, I really don't think people should take this quite so seriously.

A friend of mine read an article that was almost the same thing as Yahtzee's review, though. He showed it to me and it actually looks like Yahtzee didn't really come up with an original video here... think maybe he plagiarized?

I'll get the URL to the article if I can find it again.

Yahtzee did put together a rather lengthy editorial on his website about CAD, and he's written about webcomics before.

It wasn't Yahtzee. It was someone else. My friend showed it to me and told me that Yahtzee must have completely ripped it off, though I'm not sure quite how true it is.

 

[Worsle]

Rebochan the difference between getting away with being a prima donna and not is talent. Buckley does not put out any thing good enough to start covering up for his flaws. Personally I don't give a damn about Buckley but some of the bitchy stories are rather funny and his "explanation" of his miscarriage story (and the way it was handled in general, as a reset button) makes him seem like a self adsorbed moron. That and no artist should shut out all complaints and that is why Buckley has done not just the over the top ones I mean every single descenting voice is silenced, this is not a good thing to do even if you are doing some thing well in the first place.

That and when people will laugh at a piss poor joke that has is crushing you in text, has no sense of timing and makes zero use of the visual aspect of a comic (even dinosaur comics does better here and it has a static layout) and don't recognise it they should be mocked. You can still like shit things, personally I love anything absurd enough, but if you can't understand its faults then where does that leave us?

Edit. Yahtzee wrote an article that you can see on his site that explains why he sees CAD as the epitome of the banality of the internet. he dislikes it because CAD gets away with putting out such mediocre drivel and yet gets lapped up, he explaining a comment he made in an interview and backs it up well. It is not an article seething with hatred or a sign of someone with an axe to grind, he even compliments Buckley's art blog as showing he can be a good artist if he tries but insteed he gets heaped with praise for this copy and paste nonsense.

 

[Plowking]

Rebochan the difference between getting away with being a prima donna and not is talent. Buckley does not put out any thing good enough to start covering up for his flaws. Personally I don't give a damn about Buckley but some of the bitchy stories are rather funny and his "explanation" of his miscarriage story (and the way it was handled in general, as a reset button) makes him seem like a self adsorbed moron. That and no artist should shut out all complaints and that is why Buckley has done not just the over the top ones I mean every single descenting voice is silenced, this is not a good thing to do even if you are doing some thing well in the first place.

That and when people will laugh at a piss poor joke that has is crushing you in text, has no sense of timing and makes zero use of the visual aspect of a comic (even dinosaur comics does better here and it has a static layout) and don't recognise it they should be mocked. You can still like shit things, personally I love anything absurd enough, but if you can't understand its faults then where does that leave us?

I agree with all of that. Within the 25 pages of posts here, the truth does lie, almost buried. But there it is.

That's the closing argument in many ways for the people who do not like CAD.

Can arguments FOR CAD (are there any?) be as well rounded and - quite basically - obvious?

Edit:
Let's try:
"But copying and pasting the same images over every same four panels is great artwork!"
"Interjecting a zany game web comic with stories about not wanting to date large women and sudden miscarriages IS great story telling..."
"It's great that all the characters react to situations they don't like by a)stabbing b)maiming c)threatening to stab, maim etc. d)unfunny profanity, and so on..."
"It doesn't have to be funny - it's about GAMES, I like games..."

Sorry, none of them do it for me...

 

[ness42153]

CAD has its moments (as all webcomics do in my opinion) of something hilariously funny, and right now that child issue did make me and my buddy, as yahtzee said in the video, "smile nosily at each other", but the same can be said about this video... yahtzee has made me laugh in any other review but this one sounded like he just had a pure rant so he chose this to release his rage upon

so the good and bad; Good- made me realize in full what a downhill fall CAD is in right now; BAD- i honestly didnt laugh at all in this review... in fact everything he critiqued CAD (and other webcomics) upon eventually can be called upon the great yahtzee and zeropunctuation himself...(of course not the miscarriage thing)

in all i hope he avoids this concept in the future

 

[friedmetroid]

I can't be bothered to read through 24 pages of drivel to see if it's been posted before, but I guess all author insertion webcomic characters aren't charismatic eccentrics loved by everyone.

http://www.zebeth.com/planetzebeth/archive1k/z1010.html

 

[rebochan]

I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep throwing myself to the trolls. Clearly people are going to argue against anyone with a dissenting opinion regardless of what that opinion is. I merely pointed out that when you turn it into petty insult fests, you're deprived of any real argument because you're just too petty to handle the concept that people might disagree with you. I doubt the irony that this is exactly what you accuse Buckley of doing will ever sink in of course.

Oh, and I referenced both this and Yahtzee's essay multiple times in the thread, but eh. Why let facts get in the way of a good troll?

EDIT: Oh hell, one more.

Edit:
Let's try:
"But copying and pasting the same images over every same four panels is great artwork!"
"Interjecting a zany game web comic with stories about not wanting to date large women and sudden miscarriages IS great story telling..."
"It's great that all the characters react to situations they don't like by a)stabbing b)maiming c)threatening to stab, maim etc. d)unfunny profanity, and so on..."
"It doesn't have to be funny - it's about GAMES, I like games..."

Sorry, none of them do it for me...

Nobody in all 25 pages of this flamefest said anything like that. Ever. But please, continue wailing on the straw men if it makes you happy. I'm sure it's really my fault for not understanding the genius of inventing an entire opposite argument that pales in comparison to my own brilliance.

 

[Mr. Fister]

Hmmm, let's see now....a dumb main character, a character who inexplicably puts up with the main character, a girl character, and a hard time shifting from comedy to drama...it could only be one webcomic...

UNFORGOTTEN REALMS!!!!

....Oh wait, UR doesn't have a girl character, or a hard time shifting from comedy to drama. It's also not a webcomic.

Anyway, good video, but I prefer Strong Bad's take on webcomics.

 

[Bibdy]

The only web comic I've enjoyed was Concerned. Everything else just sucks, including Penny Arcade.

Amen. That has been the first and only webcomic to put me in tears.

 

[GlenRice41]

lol Yahtzee i loved this one, completely random randomness of it all the fact you just went in a complete other direction than reviewing a game also random!! beautiful! but i still feel a mailbag showdown lurking in the midst. or maybe thats just me dreaming.

but for the sake of randomness: Cheese monkey ass boink fart twingtwang.

what the hell is twingtwang? lol

 

[Plowking]

I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep throwing myself to the trolls. Clearly people are going to argue against anyone with a dissenting opinion regardless of what that opinion is. I merely pointed out that when you turn it into petty insult fests, you're deprived of any real argument because you're just too petty to handle the concept that people might disagree with you. I doubt the irony that this is exactly what you accuse Buckley of doing will ever sink in of course.

Oh, and I referenced both this and Yahtzee's essay multiple times in the thread, but eh. Why let facts get in the way of a good troll?

EDIT: Oh hell, one more.

Edit:
Let's try:
"But copying and pasting the same images over every same four panels is great artwork!"
"Interjecting a zany game web comic with stories about not wanting to date large women and sudden miscarriages IS great story telling..."
"It's great that all the characters react to situations they don't like by a)stabbing b)maiming c)threatening to stab, maim etc. d)unfunny profanity, and so on..."
"It doesn't have to be funny - it's about GAMES, I like games..."

Sorry, none of them do it for me...

Nobody in all 25 pages of this flamefest said anything like that. Ever. But please, continue wailing on the straw men if it makes you happy. I'm sure it's really my fault for not understanding the genius of inventing an entire opposite argument that pales in comparison to my own brilliance.

A troll is someone who doesn't contribute anything, just comments on others posts trying to point out stuff only they deem fit to mention, irregardless of the topic. Which are you again?

Anyway, if anyone else had said them, I would have referenced them. Stop taking things too literally. I'm merely entertaining my side of the argument. The quote symbols are just to symbolise speech. But please actually READ the 25 pages, all of what I mention there, is referenced and mentioned on various occasions (but of course, cited as reasons against CAD, not for )- except the last one, I made that one up.

If you come to forum expecting to read insults, flames, and all that kind of stuff, then you colour your perception of what you read towards those traits - turning mere fun poking into an attack on someone (usually the reader).

I mean, in all seriousness, I thought the video was hilarious, and I'm just expressing my own thoughts...

Oh, and I despise CAD and Tim - as a result of direct correspondence (not in person) experience.

And that miscarriage story line is an insult to the very serious subject matter - largely due to the ineptitude of the writing, and even the cartoony art.

Now, serious topics like that have been protrayed in cartoon strips before, but intentionally, and attempted with humour, and tasteless etc. in many opinions.

But to attempt it in a serious context, using quirky cartoon characters? It's like an episode of The Simpsons suddenly dealing with rape! How utterly wrong.