Ukraine

Silvanus

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So there's a lot of talk about this alleged Nazi leadership of Ukraine, but can someone actually give me a concrete nazi policy enacted by the Ukrainian government? Or a concrete ideological adherence to fascist ideals.
The allegation of the Ukrainian government being "Nazis" pretty much exclusively traces back to the Azov Battalion. Which is a far-right militia of ~2,000 or so members, many of whom sport neo-Nazi tattoos/emblems and express neo-Nazi ideals.

It was incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard in late 2014. Those who say the Ukrainian government itself is "Nazi" see the incorporation as acceptance/promotion of Nazi groups by the government. It was certainly a shitty and monumentally unwise move on the gov's part.
 

Satinavian

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It was certainly a shitty and monumentally unwise move on the gov's part.
Not even sure about that.
Wasn't it that this particular militia successfully managed to defend a couple of quite important places in the 2014 surprise attack where the real army completely embarressed itself ? That might have made some recognition needed for internal political reasons and probably also made it seem wise to both secure their fighting power for the future and to force them into a gouvernment controlled structure.
 
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Silvanus

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Not even sure about that.
Wasn't it that this particular militia successfully managed to defend a couple of quite important places in the 2014 surprise attack where the real army completely embarressed itself ? That might have made some recognition needed for internal political reasons and probably also made it seem wise to both secure their fighting power for the future and to force them into a gouvernment controlled structure.
Effectiveness is not a valid reason to reward/ incorporate dangerous far-right elements into the military. The only sort-of understandable motive I could see would be an effort to moderate them, bring them under external control.

Either way, we know that none of this actually matters to Russia, which utilises a neo-Nazi PMC that's (approximately) four times the size of Azov, and has been deployed to 5 or 6 overseas conflicts. The Russian government has zero problem with neo-Nazism, and sponsors it extensively, so to believe that a much smaller Ukrainian fascist Battalion has motivated them to intervene for moral reasons is laughably absurd.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Dunno about that, having some far-right elements in your military might not seem a pressing concern when you are worried about being conquered by a foreign power full of them.

Not saying that it was the right move, but I can understand why they thought it was.
 
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Silvanus

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Dunno about that, having some far-right elements in your military might not seem a pressing concern when you are worried about being conquered by a foreign power full of them.

Not saying that it was the right move, but I can understand why they thought it was.
That's true. The Spanish Socialists in the Civil War began to incorporate Stalinists and Anarchists among others, precisely because they were facing an existential threat to Spain and desperately needed whatever help they could from disparate (and often shitty) elements.

Of course, the Stalinists didn't play ball, and used the opportunity to assassinate political opponents within the Socialist alliance. But that's not on the Socialists for making a move in desperation.
 
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thestor

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Just a reminder: Seanchaidh's only interest is in siding against the perceived global superpower. Literally any behavior is defensible if being done by an enemy or rival of the United States.
And achieving the opposite. The more justifications I read for the Russia's actions, the more I get inclined to tolerate pretty much any and all misdeeds and abuses by the US.
 

Dalisclock

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That's true. The Spanish Socialists in the Civil War began to incorporate Stalinists and Anarchists among others, precisely because they were facing an existential threat to Spain and desperately needed whatever help they could from disparate (and often shitty) elements.

Of course, the Stalinists didn't play ball, and used the opportunity to assassinate political opponents within the Socialist alliance. But that's not on the Socialists for making a move in desperation.
That reminds me that George Orwell, a self professed socialist, went to Spain during the Spanish civil war to fight against the Nazi-allied Facists there. He fought alongside some communists and he did not come away with good opinions of them. It made him firmly anti-stalinist, which is reflected in his more famous Animal Farm and 1984 novels while feeling more committed to democratic socialism.

As a trival aside, in the film Casablanca, Rick is mentioned as fighting in Spain on the Loyalist/Anti-Fascist side. Rick is also unable to return to the US "For reasons that are unclear". The movie makes it vague why but knowing he fought in Spain explains a lot here, among other things why he's so disillusioned during most of the film.
 

Silvanus

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As a trival aside, in the film Casablanca, Rick is mentioned as fighting in Spain on the Loyalist/Anti-Fascist side. Rick is also unable to return to the US "For reasons that are unclear". The movie makes it vague why but knowing he fought in Spain explains a lot here, among other things why he's so disillusioned during most of the film.
I haven't seen Casablanca, but it came up during my formal study that the members of the International Brigade were often treated abysmally by their respective governments when they returned home to their "liberal democracy" homelands.
 

Hades

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The allegation of the Ukrainian government being "Nazis" pretty much exclusively traces back to the Azov Battalion. Which is a far-right militia of ~2,000 or so members, many of whom sport neo-Nazi tattoos/emblems and express neo-Nazi ideals.
Oh I know but Azov had been defeated for a while now and somehow the usual suspect still claim Zelensky is secretly a Nazi. And I thought it be nice if they tried to justify that stance.
 

Thaluikhain

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I haven't seen Casablanca, but it came up during my formal study that the members of the International Brigade were often treated abysmally by their respective governments when they returned home to their "liberal democracy" homelands.
"Yeah but, they fight commies" is a common defence of fascism for a reason, unfortunately.

Totally random bit of trivia, but the Mediterranean used to have a problem with submarine "pirates", which everyone knew was the Italian navy sinking ships that might be carrying arms to the communists (Greece was selling arms to both sides, and they weren't alone in selling or supplying weapons), but at Nyon the world powers basically said they wouldn't make a big deal of the many ships sunk already as long as it ended now, and then he whole thing seemed to have been quietly forgotten. Could well have been due to not wanting to kick off another big European war, but I wonder how different it would have been if they were Soviet "pirates" rather than Italian.
 

Seanchaidh

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The allegation of the Ukrainian government being "Nazis" pretty much exclusively traces back to the Azov Battalion.
You seem very intent to whitewash. Anyway, no. For one thing, Azov is just the most famous example; other neo-Nazi groups have been incorporated into the military and various police forces. And Ukraine can (still!) hardly go a week without advertising one of their soldiers sporting Nazi iconography whether it's the Nazi swastika, Sonnenrad, Tottenkopf, or some other SS division symbol. And apart from merely being incorporated into the government, neo-Nazi groups were instrumental in overthrowing it in 2014. So of course they should be rewarded with regular government salaries, heavy weapons and armored vehicles.

It also has to do with laws discriminating against the Russian minority, the apparent influence of neo-Nazis when it comes to backtracking Minsk agreement promises, the history of Ukrainian nationalist's reverence for and collaboration with German Nazism specifically (as well as the ongoing veneration of murderous collaborators like Stepan Bandera), the repugnant treatment of Roma, the anti-communism of the government and its proclivity for banning left-leaning media and political parties. Oh, and they also used the war as a pretext to destroy the rights of workers, but I guess that follows the highest tradition of liberal so-called democracy.

Then as more circumstantial evidence there is the propensity for neo-Nazis outside of Ukraine to support Ukraine or even go there and fight. And people like Chrystia Freeland keep posing with the Ukrainian blood and soil flag (the horizontal black and red). This is not exhaustive: it's just what came to mind.
 

Silvanus

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You seem very intent to whitewash. Anyway, no. For one thing, Azov is just the most famous example; other neo-Nazi groups have been incorporated into the military and various police forces. And Ukraine can (still!) hardly go a week without advertising one of their soldiers sporting Nazi iconography whether it's the Nazi swastika, Sonnenrad, Tottenkopf, or some other SS division symbol.
I've seen precious little of any substance outside of Azov. And that includes the Twitter-dredging you've done.

You've been presented with a carefully-curated image by a power intent on Ukraine's destruction, and a handful of (usually Russian state-affiliated) media personalities who have an avowed interest in portraying the issue as massively as possible. The actual releases from the Ukrainian government itself don't have much that could be construed as "far right" in them-- certainly far less than (say) Hungary, Russia, or the US over the last eight years. But only madmen are calling for the destruction and invasion of those countries.

And apart from merely being incorporated into the government, neo-Nazi groups were instrumental in overthrowing it in 2014. So of course they should be rewarded with regular government salaries, heavy weapons and armored vehicles.
Dramatically exaggerated by all accounts. As I've pointed out many times before, Nazi groups took part more prominently in the anti-Maidan side of that conflict, which has gone entirely uncommented by tankies altogether.

Besides which, of course, the current government isn't even the same one that came to power in Maidan. You just like to conflate Eastern European governments that weren't installed by Russia.

It also has to do with laws discriminating against the Russian minority
Let's see exactly what you're referring to here.

the apparent influence of neo-Nazis when it comes to backtracking Minsk agreement promises
Russia broke Minsk far more egregiously than Ukraine, and did so first, and did so more commonly. You're expecting one side to adhere to an agreement with an opponent that had already wholly disregarded it.

the anti-communism of the government and its proclivity for banning left-leaning media and political parties.
They banned a small selection of fringe parties, of both the far right and fat left, most of which were openly campaigning for a hostile state.

Interestingly, the only member of any banned Ukrainian party that you've tweet-quoted so far was of the far-right, so its kind of funny how interchangeable they can be.

Oh, and they also used the war as a pretext to destroy the rights of workers, but I guess that follows the highest tradition of liberal so-called democracy.
Not really "Nazi", and par for the course during wartime in almost any country under siege. Meanwhile, Russia has passed numerous strike-breaker and monumentally oppressive anti-worker ordinances during the same timeframe, while also conscripting poor Russians to kill themselves (and yes, it is specifically poor Russians-- remember they wrote an exemption in specifically for wealthy private schools).

Then as more circumstantial evidence there is the propensity for neo-Nazis outside of Ukraine to support Ukraine or even go there and fight.
HAH! Global fascist sentiment is overwhelmingly in favour of Russian domination-- in no small part due to Russian sponsorship of neo-fascist groups around the world.

Most of all, I'd just ask if you would term Russia "Nazi", seeing as every single characteristic here is far more prominent and extreme in the Russian government.
 
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Hades

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Then as more circumstantial evidence there is the propensity for neo-Nazis outside of Ukraine to support Ukraine or even go there and fight. And people like Chrystia Freeland keep posing with the Ukrainian blood and soil flag (the horizontal black and red). This is not exhaustive: it's just what came to mind.
Uh just about all far right and fascist groups are pro Russian. From Trump, to Salvini, to Baudet to all the others. They all openly have Putin, not Zelensky as their champion.
 

Generals

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Uh just about all far right and fascist groups are pro Russian. From Trump, to Salvini, to Baudet to all the others. They all openly have Putin, not Zelensky as their champion.
On top of it being pretty obvious far right parties have been generally less pro Ukraine than others his example is rather laughable, a Canadian Center-left politician was pictured once with people holding a scarf in the colors of the Ukrainian nationalist flag.... For all we know she didn't even know what these colors meant despire her Ukrainian roots. And calling a one time event "keeps posing with the Ukrainian blood and soil flag" is one heck of a misrepresentation.
 
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Silvanus

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The Independent has a reporter in Izium, Balakiya and Pisky-Rad'kiv'ski who has been interviewing civilian survivors of Russian occupation. They testify to experiencing (among other things): gang rape, electrocution torture, beatings, and denial of access to the toilet or medication.

These are the people the Russian army purports to be "protecting from fascists".
 

Dalisclock

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The Independent has a reporter in Izium, Balakiya and Pisky-Rad'kiv'ski who has been interviewing civilian survivors of Russian occupation. They testify to experiencing (among other things): gang rape, electrocution torture, beatings, and denial of access to the toilet or medication.

These are the people the Russian army purports to be "protecting from fascists".
Something Something We had to kill them in order to save them Something Something Fascist Noises Something Something But the US pulled off Coups in Latin America Something Something.
 

thebobmaster

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Something Something We had to kill them in order to save them Something Something Fascist Noises Something Something But the US pulled off Coups in Latin America Something Something.
You forgot Something Something Western Media Is Lies Something Something Only Mother Russia Speaks Truth Something Something.
 

Silvanus

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Meduza has claimed it has gained access to polling carried out by the Federal Protective Service in Russia, and commissioned by the Russian government. It shows 55% of respondents favour diplomatic approaches now, and only 25% now favour continuing the war (down from nearly 60% in July). It shows that the partial mobilisation has had a significantly negative effect on public support for the war.