Ukraine

Silvanus

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You were able to resist believing one lie about Russia because even imperialist media said it wasn't true (eventually).
Whereas you immediately discount any possibility that implicates Russia, going all the way back to your (still hilarious) insistence that the very notion Russia would even invade in the first place was "hysteria".

One time out of fifty, you'll end up being correct, like a broken clock that simps for the far-right. And the one time you're right is... the one time you and the western media you despise are on the same page.

Meanwhile, Russian media has been screaming for months now about "Satanic drug addict Nazis", secret fabricated bioweapon labs, anti-Trans conspiracy theories etc- an endless stream of invented nonsense to justify slaughter, none of which you have a problem with, and a lot of which you've happily parroted.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Whereas you immediately discount any possibility that implicates Russia, going all the way back to your (still hilarious) insistence that the very notion Russia would even invade in the first place was "hysteria".
Given the information we had, it was hysteria. The prediction was made. The case was not.
 

Silvanus

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Given the information we had, it was hysteria. The prediction was made. The case was not.
Sure thing. Even though they had already invaded/annexed once in very recent memory, were sponsoring an insurgency, sending disguised troops over the border, and then started amassing troops on the border again.

Everybody except you was able to recognise the gigantic flashing warning signs.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Everybody except you was able to recognise the gigantic flashing warning signs.
Well, no. I recall that Gergar seemed to think that Biden had masterfully prevented the invasion of Ukraine by predicting that it would happen and doing nothing else. (It was 'masterfully' because Biden also hadn't made any diplomatic concessions or given Russia any reason not to invade other than the crying shame of it having been foretold.) I had the curse of an interest in the history of the conflict and figured the same thing would happen as all the other times. You bought into the hype without any convincing reason to do so and happened to be correct... eventually. You had the timing wrong because Biden had the timing wrong and you uncritically repeated Biden.

Sure thing. Even though they had already invaded/annexed once in very recent memory, were sponsoring an insurgency, sending disguised troops over the border, and then started amassing troops on the border again.
Yes, sponsoring those dastardly Russian speakers who objected to a western-backed anti-Russian coup with allegations of disguised Russian active-duty military going in to defend the breakaway republics from the aggression of a neo-Nazi military regiment armed with heavy weapons; quelle horreur. Notably, the truth of those allegations are functionally very hard to distinguish from the simple existence of foreign volunteers. Then again, why might Russians want to volunteer in a civil war involving a vilified Russian-speaking population? It couldn't possibly be anything other than by Putin's direct order! In any case, the same scenario of a military build-up had played out several times without any invasion by Russia and, crucially, though there was the claim of "it's different this time", that claim never came with convincing evidence for its premises. Biden declassified conclusions purportedly made by intelligence analysts but not the evidence for them. You swallowed them uncritically and termed your arbitrary guesswork knowledge. Then Biden was ludicrously heralded in the press for masterfully preventing a Russian invasion merely by predicting it and doing nothing whatsoever to try to ease tensions. So far as I could tell at the time, Biden was just posturing because his actions apart from predicting invasion only seemed to encourage it. That Zelensky at the time was saying that Russia wasn't going to invade also made it perfectly believable that it wouldn't happen. It frankly didn't occur to me that Biden wanted an invasion to happen and Zelensky was just lying. But that is my conclusion with the benefit of hindsight... and this: https://www.newsweek.com/zelensky-reveals-why-he-didnt-warn-his-citizens-russian-invasion-1734268

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky says he strategically downplayed the impending Russian invasion to prevent a financial panic that he says would have resulted in his country swiftly falling to the Kremlin.
Another thing I didn't know at the time was that Ukraine had begun a major offensive against the Donbass in the days prior to Russia's invasion. If I'd known that, I might have made the opposite prediction (though even such an offensive was hardly unprecedented); at the time, I genuinely believed that Ukraine and the United States were merely stonewalling Russia's attempts at diplomatically resolving their security issues because time seemed to be on the side of NATO in the absence of any escalation of the conflict; they would continue training and arming Ukrainians to eventually take on Russia and Russia would complain about it but as was the pattern do very little to stop it. The United States would roughly be the Dominion to Ukraine's Cardassia if you get that very imperfect analogy. I remember wondering at the time how Ukraine's forces were positioned relative to those very spooky maps about Russia's troop deployments which naturally left the situation in Ukraine blank. Lo and behold, they had begun an offensive against the Donbass threatening to defrost that frozen conflict. In that, at least, they succeeded; conflict unfrozen, congratulations.

Now for months you've sat applauding the United States and United Kingdom for grinding Ukraine into dust in the service of weakening Russia because Russia is an imperialist country (though oddly focused on the domestic extraction of raw resources for export for an imperial metropole but whatever) and the greater imperial power must be allowed to contain and encircle all of its rivals because anything else is an evil great power politics with spheres of influence like that terrible horrible Monroe Doctrine (that is still US foreign policy); in order to avoid that, the entire world must be in the United States's sphere of influence. It's already the right shape, at least.
 

Satinavian

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Everybody except you was able to recognise the gigantic flashing warning signs.
I honestly did not expect the invasion and there were a lot of other people surprised as well. If more people had believed that Putin was serious, they would have done far more to help Ukraine prepare.

Well, I was proven wrong. Russia has shown that it is not interested in peaceful coexistence nor in mutual economic cooperation at all and seeks only to restore the empire.
 

Generals

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I honestly did not expect the invasion and there were a lot of other people surprised as well. If more people had believed that Putin was serious, they would have done far more to help Ukraine prepare.

Well, I was proven wrong. Russia has shown that it is not interested in peaceful coexistence nor in mutual economic cooperation at all and seeks only to restore the empire.
Well, I didn't expect it either but I didn't exclude the possibility as "NATO hysteria" either. And I think that was a sentiment shared among many, especially world leaders. I doubt Macron would have spent so much time on the phone with Putin if he didn't consider it a possibility at all. I think they all either hoped/expected it could be averted through negotiations or that the war would have ended quickly due to Ukraine being overwhelmed (regardless of support).

Same old addressed pro Fascist Imperialism propaganda
How do you like siding with imperialist Fascism? Does it give you 1939 nostalgia?
 

Thaluikhain

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I honestly did not expect the invasion and there were a lot of other people surprised as well. If more people had believed that Putin was serious, they would have done far more to help Ukraine prepare.

Well, I was proven wrong. Russia has shown that it is not interested in peaceful coexistence nor in mutual economic cooperation at all and seeks only to restore the empire.
Yeah, I was thinking it was chest-beating and scaremongering (on Russia's part), as such seems par for the course nowdays, but then I can't say that I'd been following the situation closely.
 
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Seanchaidh

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tstorm823

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Just a reminder: Seanchaidh's only interest is in siding against the perceived global superpower. Literally any behavior is defensible if being done by an enemy or rival of the United States.
 

Generals

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Just a reminder: Seanchaidh's only interest is in siding against the perceived global superpower. Literally any behavior is defensible if being done by an enemy or rival of the United States.
Oh we know. It's just funny to see him waste his time parroting bullshit propaganda which are either lies or irrelevant just so he can pretend that's not his sole motivation.
 
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Avnger

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Just a reminder: Seanchaidh's only interest is in siding against the perceived global superpower. Literally any behavior is defensible if being done by an enemy or rival of the United States.
While what you say is entirely true, those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones...
 
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Silvanus

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Well, no. I recall that Gergar seemed to think that Biden had masterfully prevented the invasion of Ukraine by predicting that it would happen and doing nothing else. (It was 'masterfully' because Biden also hadn't made any diplomatic concessions or given Russia any reason not to invade other than the crying shame of it having been foretold.) I had the curse of an interest in the history of the conflict and figured the same thing would happen as all the other times.]
*All the other times except 2014, when Russia invaded and annexed it.

You bought into the hype without any convincing reason to do so and happened to be correct... eventually. You had the timing wrong because Biden had the timing wrong and you uncritically repeated Biden.
When did I make claims about the timing, exactly?

Yes, sponsoring those dastardly Russian speakers who objected to a western-backed anti-Russian coup with allegations of disguised Russian active-duty military going in to defend the breakaway republics from the aggression of a neo-Nazi military regiment armed with heavy weapons; quelle horreur.
No, not just "Russian speakers"-- they very specifically sponsored insurgent far-right militias. It's not as if they sponsored any actual civilian groups: only militias they directed.

Whenever the US sponsors an overseas insurgency, and then dismally claims to be protecting the locals by doing so, you rightfully call it out as imperialist repression dressed up with a flimsy pretext.

Then when exactly the same method is used by Russia, and exactly the same excuses are trotted out, suddenly they're not a flimsy pretext! Suddenly they're being uncritically parroted! Quelle surprise!

The insurgency, and the subsequent "breakaway Republics", have never been a Ukrainian project: have always been wholly set up, directed, and funded by Russia. Notice how now that Russia has claimed the Donbas for itself, it has abandoned any pretence of protecting their "independence"-- now they're just to be part of Russia in the grand imperial scheme. And the puppet leaders have just quietly shifted from talking about independence altogether.

I wonder if you actually believe that is relevant.
It's certainly relevant to the Russian media and Dmitry Medvedev, who're both screaming about the evils of Satan and LGBT people as explicit justifications for the current conflict.

It should also be of interest to anyone who's enough of a clown to buy into the risible idea that Russia is fighting the far-right, rather than fighting to impose Christian Nationalism.
 
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Thaluikhain

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While what your day is entirely true, those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones...
Yeah, it's like watching a very similar movie to the original, with most of the same actors, only they are playing each other's roles.
 

Hades

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Now for months you've sat applauding the United States and United Kingdom for grinding Ukraine into dust in the service of weakening Russia because Russia is an imperialist country
Uh you're a tad confused on what's happening. All these months its Russia trying to grind Ukraine into the dust in service of blood and soil. All the west is doing is providing weapons and funds so Ukraine isn't grinded into the dust. And if they didn't do that then Ukraine in its entirely would be anexed and ethnically cleansed.
 

Silvanus

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Uh you're a tad confused on what's happening. All these months its Russia trying to grind Ukraine into the dust in service of blood and soil. All the west is doing is providing weapons and funds so Ukraine isn't grinded into the dust. And if they didn't do that then Ukraine in its entirely would be anexed and ethnically cleansed.
"If you didn't try to stop me, I wouldn't be forced to kill you!" -- give me a fucking break.

It's the bankrupt logic of the domestic abuser, insisting that it's his wife's fault that he's being forced to hit her. It's sick.
 
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Hades

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So there's a lot of talk about this alleged Nazi leadership of Ukraine, but can someone actually give me a concrete nazi policy enacted by the Ukrainian government? Or a concrete ideological adherence to fascist ideals.

Its easy to see Nazi parallels Putin who has openly admitted his war on Ukraine and his discomfort about sovereignty for East European countries is all about blood and soil. And both modern day Russia and Nazi Germany being revangist dictatorships makes parallels rather easy to draw. Distaste for minorities, contempt for the rule of law, rampant corruption, a ''macho culture'' and the ideal of a glorious leader are all found within modern Russia and Nazi Germany alike.

But what about Zelensky and Ukraine? Has Zelensky been shouting about blood and soil when no one was paying attention? And has he subtly modeled his state after Nazi Germany without anyone noticing? Has he oppressed minorities purely for the lulz? For how much Putin supporters like to portray Zelensky as a Nazi he sure seems to have incredibly little in common with them. Unless you use the Russian definition which in their own world is ''purposefully ambiguous'' and which can be expressed just through not wanting to be butchered by Russian soldiers.