Ukraine

[EvilRoy]

I see a lot of AFU Nazism without even using a search engine. That suggests a difference in scale.

No it doesn't, it suggests a difference in algorithm. You taught the programs that control what media you are presented, based on what you are most likely to engage with, that you want to hear about Ukranians being Nazis. That you don't hear about Russian Nazis or warcrimes indicates that you taught the same algorithm that you are not interested in knowing about them despite the two topics being heavily interrelated given the war.

Typically I would say this isn't particularly meaningful. We all have weird shit pop up in our social media feeds. Where it becomes a problem is when you argue that it is evidence of a consensus - because it's not, it's just you agreeing with yourself and being shown what you want to see.

 

[Chimpzy]

Oi, Sean, that you?

 

[Hades]

Oi, Sean, that you?

Its funny enlightened centrists say Ukraine should give up territory even after Russia already admitted they wish to enact ethnic cleansing in any Ukrainian region unlucky enough to fall into their hands. Its also funny he considers it a provocation against Russia to acknowledge Russia's former victims are independent countries.

 

[Ag3ma]

Its funny enlightened centrists say Ukraine should give up territory even after Russia already admitted they wish to enact ethnic cleansing in any Ukrainian region unlucky enough to fall into their hands. Its also funny he considers it a provocation against Russia to acknowledge Russia's former victims are independent countries.

Which enlightened centrist do you mean? Cornel West definitely isn't one.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Oi, Sean, that you?

Ukraine having territory is a provocation towards Russia, so Ukraine should cede territory until that's no longer the case.

 

[Seanchaidh]

No it doesn't, it suggests a difference in algorithm.

My algorithm shows me stuff like this. And tweets by the Armed Forces of Ukraine themselves.

When it's from the horse's mouth, it's not an algorithm problem.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Oi, Sean, that you?

I'd much rather be on the side of Cornel West than Boris Johnson or Joe Biden. What is wrong with you?

edit: here's an essay Cornel West wrote in 1985 for a little perspective on where he's coming from: https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8ZC8CP2

 

[Avnger]

I'd much rather be on the side of Cornel West than Boris Johnson or Joe Biden. What is wrong with you?

He's likely not a campist (like you), and therefore tries to actually analyze the topic at hand rather than just "sides".

 

[EvilRoy]

My algorithm shows me stuff like this. And tweets by the Armed Forces of Ukraine themselves.

When it's from the horse's mouth, it's not an algorithm problem.

And we have "I'm a Nazi etc. etc." right from Wagners mouth. The issue is, you've decided there's a consesus in the direction you agree with, and everything else is lacking because you don't personally see enough of that yourself through your feeds. But what you see is specially curated to be what you want to see, so of course you don't see equally unpleasant things posted by Wagner or Russian soldiers - you wouldn't click on them. Its not fundamentally different from exclusively watching Fox News and choosing to base all your opinions on one small subset of often extreme views because you never flip over to another news network.

 

[Seanchaidh]

And we have "I'm a Nazi etc. etc." right from Wagners mouth. The issue is, you've decided there's a consesus in the direction you agree with, and everything else is lacking because you don't personally see enough of that yourself through your feeds. But what you see is specially curated to be what you want to see, so of course you don't see equally unpleasant things posted by Wagner or Russian soldiers - you wouldn't click on them. Its not fundamentally different from exclusively watching Fox News and choosing to base all your opinions on one small subset of often extreme views because you never flip over to another news network.

So you think I need to seek out Russian white nationalists on telegram or something? Gonna be honest, I'd just as soon not.

 

[Hades]

Which enlightened centrist do you mean? Cornel West definitely isn't one.

He isn't. But its how he seems to see himself.

''Lol the genocidal invader and their victims should just go mean in the middle!''

 

[EvilRoy]

So you think I need to seek out Russian white nationalists on telegram or something? Gonna be honest, I'd just as soon not.

No, you just need to stop believing that a system designed to show you what you want to see is evidence of a consensus.

 

[Silvanus]

So you think I need to seek out Russian white nationalists on telegram or something? Gonna be honest, I'd just as soon not.

No, the argument is that you're seeing so much from one side and nothing from the other as a direct result of your interactions and the algorithm. Hence why others have exactly the opposite experience. Hence why you seem to believe a huge amount of AFU's social media presence is full of Nazi symbology, even though its factually not if you take the time to look a bit deeper than what popped up in your feed.

 

[Ag3ma]

Ukraine having territory is a provocation towards Russia, so Ukraine should cede territory until that's no longer the case.

This is the USA and NATO's fault, so Ukraine should be punished with the loss of its territory.

 

[Seanchaidh]

No, the argument is that you're seeing so much from one side and nothing from the other as a direct result of your interactions and the algorithm. Hence why others have exactly the opposite experience. Hence why you seem to believe a huge amount of AFU's social media presence is full of Nazi symbology, even though its factually not if you take the time to look a bit deeper than what popped up in your feed.

the algorithm was not inventing all those tweets glorifying Azov and other soldiers who proudly wear nazi symbols. tbf, after awhile they started blurring out some of them.

anyway, physicians heal thyselves.

 

[Silvanus]

the algorithm was not inventing all those tweets glorifying Azov and other soldiers who proudly wear nazi symbols. tbf, after awhile they started blurring out some of them.

Nope, but it has been giving a distorted impression of their prominence and frequency, while minimising and sidelining stuff you wouldn't care about-- such as similar evidence on the other side. That's how it works-- it doesn't invent, but it spotlights and excludes, to give an overall highly distorted impression.

anyway, physicians heal thyselves.

You remain the only one here denying the neo-fascist nature of a neo-fascist group, and wanting us to consider a fascist battalion of a few hundred (operating solely within its own country's borders) to be a greater concern than a fascist PMC of a fair few thousand invading another country.

 

[Elijin]

Not to mention the real significant glorification of those soldiers is a direct result of them defending the country against a foreign invader. It's amazing how quickly people will side with the ones standing against a hostile invading force.

 

[Ag3ma]

Not to mention the real significant glorification of those soldiers is a direct result of them defending the country against a foreign invader. It's amazing how quickly people will side with the ones standing against a hostile invading force.

Exactly, but it goes earlier than that.

The far right feed on public dissatisfaction and sense of threat. In the case of Ukraine, Russia is therefore a major driver of the Ukrainian far right through its constant bullying, manipulation and threats. Russia's use of the Ukrainian ethnic Russian minority as a "fifth column" to stir up dissent was fanning the flames of societal schism even before the 2014 invasions. We can be thankful that Ukraine kept enough of a lid on the extreme nationalists and they subsided after 2014, rather than grew.

 

[Absent]

Exactly, but it goes earlier than that.

The far right feed on public dissatisfaction and sense of threat. In the case of Ukraine, Russia is therefore a major driver of the Ukrainian far right through its constant bullying, manipulation and threats. Russia's use of the Ukrainian ethnic Russian minority as a "fifth column" to stir up dissent was fanning the flames of societal schism even before the 2014 invasions. We can be thankful that Ukraine kept enough of a lid on the extreme nationalists and they subsided after 2014, rather than grew.

Yeah, but I fear for the post-war Ukraine.

 

[Ag3ma]

Yeah, but I fear for the post-war Ukraine.

Well, yes.

Put any nation and people under deprivation and stress, it's likely to cause problems. The best way to mitigate it would probably be to put Ukraine in a "safe space" with assurances to protect it from further Russian aggression, and then work to help rebuild it effectively. An obvious sense of progress and growth would do wonders to move its people towards positivity rather than letting the sort of resentment and frustration fester that the far right feeds on.

Bluntly, the rest of Europe and North America need to have a careful think about that too. The far right has flourished in the general sense of frustration, inequality and diminished opportunities much of the population endures since capitalism conspicuously stopped delivering for them in the 80s/90s as had in the postwar era.