Democrats already proposing austerity before DNC even ends

[lil devils x]

I'm fond of Neil Gaiman's analogy of the mountain. Your goal is a mountain off in the distance and all you have to do is take the path that at that point in your life will take you closer to the mountain. Some paths won't be available sometimes. Some will take you away from the mountain. Either way, you still have to walk.

For some reason LOTR imagery comes to mind. XD

 

[SupahEwok]

View attachment 608

And that sums up my view.

You forgetting the part where he chose the lesser evil anyway?

 

[Agema]

I'm fond of Neil Gaiman's analogy of the mountain. Your goal is a mountain off in the distance and all you have to do is take the path that at that point in your life will take you closer to the mountain. Some paths won't be available sometimes. Some will take you away from the mountain. Either way, you still have to walk.

"No, the goddamn mountain should come to me, and I'm just going sit here and hold my breath until it does."

 

[Buyetyen]

You forgetting the part where he chose the lesser evil anyway?

This is one reason why I generally don't think it's a good idea to try and communicate complex ideas in meme form.

"No, the goddamn mountain should come to me, and I'm just going sit here and hold my breath until it does."

And that just about sums up this thread.

 

[Worgen]

Yes because an undergraduate student totally makes allot of money.

That actually explains a lot.

 

[tippy2k2]

(sigh) You're right. That was not cool of me. I apologize.

So, trying this again, here's my thinking. The way the system is set up, third party votes only split the ticket, and both parties know this and have built their infrastructure around it. Combined with first-past-the-post and winner-take-all, and this effectively locks other parties out. That's why progressives tend to be going to the Democrats instead of third parties: it's the best platform they're going to get. That's a pragmatic decision on their part and I think they've got the right idea.

Back in the era of the Civil Rights movement, a lot of southern black people registered as Democrats specifically because their communities knew if they organized, they had the numbers to primary most of the Dixiecrats out of office. And to an extent it worked. I get it, working within a system this broken is repugnant and distasteful and I feel dirty having to do it myself. But I do it anyway, because pragmatically speaking it's the only place to start. We obviously both agree that seeding the down-ticket races at the state and local levels with progressives is important, I'm simply proposing that as a practical matter, these should be the races we focus the most on for the next few cycles.

The Squad were able to win their seats and keep them despite the establishment trying to put their dicks in it. They tried to primary the Squad from the right, and all that did was give them landslide victories. Like Bernie, they accepted no corporate cash and proved that it can be done. The establishment succeeds in getting their way in part because too many people can no longer imagine a different system. Spitting in the face of the donor class like AOC and Ilhan Omar and succeeding? Don't underestimate how important that can be in the wider fight.

Now, you're not wrong that Biden is an at best "meh" candidate. Trump on the other hand... like I've said, I am terrified that some of my friends and family won't survive another 4 years of him. I can't do much to change the system if I'm dead. And if I vote 3rd party, the odds that will send any kind of message to the establishment Dems are virtually non-existent. And when they lose, as we've seen, they're inclined to believe that it's because they weren't far enough to the right. That and most of them are millionaires, so they're not exactly "in touch." A full frontal attack on the problem isn't working, so we need to come at it sideways. Gergar describes it as a lesser of two evils argument, though I think it's more accurate to say that this is an argument of trading space for time. The establishment Dems are whores, every one of them. The Republicans though are measurably worse. They're an anti-human party and actively destructive. The Dems are bumbling, insidious and craven, but they're nowhere near as malicious.

What I am proposing is that rather than trying to send a message to the Dems at the top of the ticket, which won't get through to them anyway, we have to learn to play the political game better. I know for some people that sounds like an unpleasant prospect and it is. We're a bit short on options, however. The Donor Class will be controlling the presidency for the foreseeable future, so what I am proposing is that we hold our noses on Biden and make the down-ticket races our priority for the next couple of cycles. Instead of trying to effect change from the top-down, we need to be building up a more solid coalition of progressive voices if we want a real shot at the Oval Office. The Republicans understand this strategy very well. They know how many local races go ignored and many of their candidates can run unopposed. They have built a very solid power base on that strategy and we should just up and steal it.

I am asking my fellow progressives to acknowledge that the top-down approach isn't working. We need to pick up the slack on the down-ticket races and we have unfortunately been really lagging in that. Progressive turnout for the primaries this year was terrible. You and I showed up (I presume), but not enough others. And that's on the progressive community. We need to admit we've fallen asleep at the wheel and start making up for our mistakes. We need to commit harder and we have to be willing to do the really tedious and unpleasant legwork. We blew it this cycle. Yeah, Bernie was cheated, but the numbers are still there and progressive turnout was bad. We'll never hold the establishment accountable if we're not accountable to ourselves.

Does that help?

and that is all completely fair...but I disagree with it. This is basically a battle of philosophy for the best way to move forward; you think playing the political game is the way to do it where I'm of the mind that the political game is so rigged in their favor that you can never win it so all you can do is try to take out a player and take their spot.

But hey, there is a lot of time between now and November. A lot can happen in the world that might either change my mind or Biden could adopt to change my mind. At the very least, your post gives me a bit more to consider and chew on for the next threeish months.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Then, after they have been elected and no longer have any use for you, that's when you expect to have the power to pull Biden to the left and get him to backstab his Corporate Donors that he is so cozy with?

"Pull him to the left after he's in office".

Like with Occupy, when the Obama-era DoJ, DHS, and DoD coordinated with financial institutions and PMC's to violently crack down on protests?

Like with Ferguson, when Obama pulled out storied GOP dog whistles like "not all cops", "black on black crime", and "agitators", to defend National Guard deployments to crack down on police-initiated and police-escalated violence while the federal government was still playing by COINTELPRO rules?

Like with Standing Rock, when the National Guard, local and state police, and PMC's coordinated to violently and dubiously-legally crack down on the protest?

You see, we on the left have the rarest, most elusive, and highest-order of political skills: pattern recognition and object permanence. Obama didn't even start that shit, he just inherited it, accelerated and empowered it, and passed on the strongest and most robust "national security" infrastructure in human history to Trump. Bush was doing that shit to Iraq War and environmental protesters, and the playbook was written during the Eisenhower, JFK, and Johnson years in response to civil rights protest.

Wanna complain about Trump's extensive toolkit he's using to crack down on BLM protests for the past three months, great, fantastic. Make sure you're asking how he got that toolkit to start with, otherwise all you're doing is being a partisan moron.

Here's the bottom line with "hold Biden accountable after he's in office", "stay in the streets after inauguration day", and "pull him left after the election". It's gonna be the same damn cops, the same damn DHS officers, the same damn Guardsmen, the same damn local and state cops, and the same damn private security using the same damn military equipment, shooting the same damn "less lethal" ammunition, throwing the same damn flashbangs and tear gas, infiltrating the same damn groups, and escalating and provoking the same damn people, to spew the same damn lies about "violent rioters" and "outside agitators".

We've been through this before, we know the score, and we know what's already coming. Because past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, especially when Biden's already signaling this intent as clear as day. And we already know, like what happened in the Bush and Obama years, the "hold Biden accountable" people are going to spontaneously, collectively "evolve" in their positions between 12:00-12:01 pm on January 20, 2021.

 

[Buyetyen]

and that is all completely fair...but I disagree with it. This is basically a battle of philosophy for the best way to move forward; you think playing the political game is the way to do it where I'm of the mind that the political game is so rigged in their favor that you can never win it so all you can do is try to take out a player and take their spot.

Those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Knowing how to play the game does not preclude targeting one's opponents for removal from office one by one. If anything, I would think it would give us some new tools in the toolbox.

Still, I hope you agree that our turnout this year was terrible and any solution has to include getting our shit together enough this doesn't happen again.

 

[Revnak]

I’d like to point out that while a violent Qanon rally is occurring in the streets of Portland with zero response from the authorities you guys are still debating whether voting out Trump will save our democracy. Our democracy is dead. You guys really need to start looking at other organizations and methods than politics to defend you and yours because we’re all already fucked.

 

[Gergar12]

I ask someone who is for voting for Biden a policy Biden will do that won't be backtracked they couldn't name one. Damage control is trash. The Trump years were bad, but so were the Clinton, Bush, and yes Obama years.

In Obama's term, we had...

Tens of millions without health insurance

Multiple wars in the Middle East

More Drone strikes not less

No public option

A weak Paris Climate accord with no mandates

China increasing in power not decreasing

The Yemeni Genocide

The rich getting richer

The poor getting poor

Walls Street getting most of the bailout money/stimulus

1/3 of the Obama bailout being tax cuts

And no anti-trust/ anti-monopoly actions

 

[Eacaraxe]

Still, I hope you agree that our turnout this year was terrible and any solution has to include getting our shit together enough this doesn't happen again.

Here's something you should consider. My state didn't even hold its primary until after the race was decided. I quite literally didn't get a choice in this.

In fact, the only election year the primary wasn't decided by the time I got to vote was 2008. You want to complain about people not turning out, consider first and foremost not all Democratic votes are created equal.

 

[Buyetyen]

I ask someone who is for voting for Biden a policy Biden will do that won't be backtracked they couldn't name one.

Because you're asking people to prove a negative while also admitting that you are not open to being persuaded. This is what is technically known as "a complete fucking waste of time." When you do that, people are going to draw some conclusions about your intentions, none of them flattering.

Here's something you should consider. My state didn't even hold its primary until after the race was decided. I quite literally didn't get a choice in this.

In fact, the only election year the primary wasn't decided by the time I got to vote was 2008. You want to complain about people not turning out, consider first and foremost not all Democratic votes are created equal.

Dude, I get it. Fuck me for having an opinion. You've made your point. Can you please stop snapping at me like a barking dog? If not, just say so, I can put you on the ignore list and we can get back to dying in slow motion.

 

[Gergar12]

Because you're asking people to prove a negative while also admitting that you are not open to being persuaded. This is what is technically known as "a complete fucking waste of time." When you do that, people are going to draw some conclusions about your intentions, none of them flattering.



Dude, I get it. Fuck me for having an opinion. You've made your point. Can you please stop snapping at me like a barking dog?

I love how you don't address 90% of my points but continue your pretentiousness, self rightness, and non-critical support of the democratic party.

 

[Buyetyen]

I love how you don't address 90% of my points but continue your pretentiousness, self rightness, and non-critical support of the democratic party.

Proving me right again. This is an ego thing, not a principled thing. Trust me, dude, we can tell. Also, are you agreeing with me that you have proclaimed yourself closed off to persuasion and are also asking people to prove a hypothetical negative?

 

[Gergar12]

Proving me right again. This is an ego thing, not a principled thing. Trust me, dude, we can tell.

An assumption YOU made with no evidence. You don't know me in real life, yet you assume because I like many lefties aren't voting for a war criminal that I am doing it for ego. Tell that to the dead Iraqis whose war Biden okayed before you shill for the worst Democratic nominee in modern history.

 

[Buyetyen]

An assumption YOU made with no evidence. You don't know me in real life, yet you assume because I like many lefties aren't voting for a war criminal that I am doing it for ego. Tell that to the dead Iraqis whose war Biden okayed before you shill for the worst Democratic nominee in modern history.

Oh, I'm sure you believe what you're saying. But your ego is the one driving. The way you act makes it pretty obvious.

I also notice that you didn't disagree with my assessment that announcing yourself unpersuadable and then demanding people persuade you by proving a hypothetical negative is pretentious and silly.

 

[Eacaraxe]

If not, just say so, I can put you on the ignore list and we can get back to dying in slow motion.

Oh I didn't even know there was an ignore list, thanks for saying something!

EDIT: Oh it doesn't really do anything. Can we get an actual block list please?

 

[Gergar12]

Oh, I'm sure you believe what you're saying. But your ego is the one driving. The way you act makes it pretty obvious.

I also notice that you didn't disagree with my assessment that announcing yourself unpersuadable and then demanding people persuade you by proving a hypothetical negative is pretentious and silly.

I am persuadable Biden tells his conservative "allies" to hit the rocks and mentions more policy. So you can't convince me, but Biden can.

And you still haven't addressed my points about Obama.

 

[Buyetyen]

Happy to help.

 

[Buyetyen]

I am persuadable Biden tells his conservative "allies" to hit the rocks and mentions more policy. So you can't convince me, but Biden can.

And yet you're asking me to persuade you by proving a hypothetical negative. Do you understand why asking people to prove a negative is dumb?

And you still haven't addressed my points about Obama.

Because Obama is not on the ballot.