I must agree on the bullying as an inadequate term point. There are many people in a America who don't want courts and police involved in such matters as they say it is not a helpful solution of the cycle. If that were the case they would need to stop these encounters before they escalate to this level -- which is absolutely a criminal issue. When kids assault each other on the street do we call it bullying? I mean legally?manic_depressive13 said:I don't know. Stabbing someone to death is pretty damn extreme. He should at least have gotten a year or so.
Let me just say that I find the term "bullying" extremely disingenuous. It's basically a way of trivialising assault that happens amongst young people. Let's call it what is, shall we? Calling someone "Fatty McMuffintop" is bullying. Hitting them is battery.
I think the main points of discussion are coming from people who did not readd the article or did not read it carefully.FalloutJack said:I see nothing wrong with this. Do we really need 20 pages of discussion over it?
Apparently, we do. I also agree.FalloutJack said:I see nothing wrong with this. Do we really need 20 pages of discussion over it?
I get what you mean about it crippling his future prospects, but a quick Google search will tell the employers everything about it anyway, regardless of what's on his CV. Perhaps we should just walk away from the case as, like you said, it will serve him well as a lesson, but personally I don't think anyone should be killed and them get away with nothing at all.Thyunda said:Community service is a maybe...but then we have to remember that this is a human being we're talking about. I know I sound all 'you can't be mean to people', but I'm really not. The kid defended himself against a bully who clearly had no concern for a fair fight, and if you give him any kind of legal punishment, then you've crippled his career prospects and damned him to a lifetime of condemnation. Employers don't give a shit about the circumstances of the attack. Soon as they see any form of violent crime on a CV, it goes out the window. I think the knowledge that his loss of control resulted in the death of another person would serve him well as a lesson, and that we should walk away from this particular case.Wilfy said:Ah, I'm getting confused between different types of knife then, I was going to say I was surprised a six-inch blade wasn't illegal.Thyunda said:A pen knife blade is three inches. In this country, a three inch blade is legal, so you won't be arrested for carrying a pen knife. However, a pocket flick knife is closer to six, so those are heavily illegal.Wilfy said:That's a good point about the adrenaline, I admittedly didn't consider that. And was it a tiny blade, because, and I may be wrong in thinking this, but isn't a pocket knife like a pen knife? Because those have six-inch blades on, which I wouldn't class as a tiny blade.Thyunda said:Nah, man, look. Stab your bully once, and he's no longer fighting to hurt you, he's fighting to survive. Adrenaline kicks in on both sides. The kid keeps stabbing until the bully stops moving. Even though the first five stabs might have been fatal, people don't just die outright. It's a total myth - stab somebody in the chest, they start bleeding. Sometimes people can fight on, before collapsing and dying. Sometimes they'll fall to the ground and slowly die there.Wilfy said:Yeah, the bully probably deserved to have the crap out of him, but surely stabbing him 11 times is a bit much? I mean, I would have thought the first stab is self defence, because I don't think many bullies would keep going after being stabbed once. But the other ten stabs? That sounds like the guy snapped and killed him. He should have got some time at least.
In this case, we have a tiny blade. I bet you the bully didn't fall until the eleventh stab, and that's why he stopped at eleven.
I'm not saying he should get a murder sentence, just maybe a year or so.
Even so, you have to ask, what are you punishing? A year in prison might teach him that murder is wrong, but we can both agree that it wasn't his intention to kill the guy, he just wanted to incapacitate him, and the human fight-or-flight response makes that incredibly difficult. If you think you're gonna die, you'll do whatever you can to survive, and for a guy trying to protect himself...well. You know the rest.
Since it clearly wasn't his intention, maybe something less than jail time, just so the message given out isn't that he can get off free with it, is necessary, such as community service (I don't actually know if they have community service in the States, if so then that).
I understand that a punch in the back of the head can in certain circumstances be fatal, but I don't see how that warrants twelve stabs with a knife. As people have pointed out, adrenaline will have kicked in, but I would have thought that since he had been trying to escape the whole time, he would stab him once, maybe twice and run. He stabbed the bully twelve times though,to me that seems like he decided to really go for the guy. This is based on my very limited knowledge of fights involving knives however.BrassButtons said:His life was in danger. The very first blow could have killed him, and there is no reason to assume similarly dangerous blows would not have been used had the fight continued. The idea that someone using their fists isn't a lethal threat is only true in the movies. In reality punches are a form of blunt-force trauma that can cause everything from minor bruises to organ damage.Wilfy said:I personally don't think lethal force should be used, unless you yourself are in lethal danger. From the story, the bully didn't have a weapon other than his fists.
Nah, a conviction makes a world of difference. Let's say the kid got hired, and later on he was found to have a conviction. He'd be out on his arse. If his manager did a Google search and found this story, but no criminal conviction, then it'd be illegal for him to fire him. A criminal conviction makes all the difference.Wilfy said:-snip-
I had actually meant a Google search before hiring him (I heard some employers do that now) but you're right, a conviction would make a huge deal of difference.Thyunda said:Nah, a conviction makes a world of difference. Let's say the kid got hired, and later on he was found to have a conviction. He'd be out on his arse. If his manager did a Google search and found this story, but no criminal conviction, then it'd be illegal for him to fire him. A criminal conviction makes all the difference.Wilfy said:-snip-
Also, I think you need to consider the fact the bully could have been holding on to him. You can imagine you have to get pretty close to somebody with a blade like that, well within arms reach, and maybe he simply couldn't get away. Maybe he was afraid of turning his back again and receiving another blow to a delicate part of the body.
But maybe it's because he's a fifteen year old kid with no combat training. If it were me in the situation, as I am now, with intent to kill, I'd have gone for the throat or jerked the knife up between the ribs. It would not take me twelve stabs. This kid, though? He's not had the same training as me. Hell, he might not have even had videogame logic to go off. Maybe he thought a three inch blade couldn't kill anybody. Either way, I can't find any reason to punish him.
The community already learned something from this. Bullying never ends well.