Amber Guyger has been found GUILTY

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I saw a youtube video about Botham's brother, Brandt, and how he forgave Amber and hugged her [https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/botham-jean-brother-amber-guyger-hug/index.html].

I have a problem with him doing it. And that's my biggest problem of all. That I have any issues of him forgiving.

If we are going to hold an individual to represent a wider group, we can also look at it from the point of view that forgiveness can signal that it's not necessarily some mindless vendetta against cops when they shoot people they shouldn't.

More simply, he has to be allowed to speak for himself; as I am aware he is just a person who has never asked to represent anyone else and that needs to be respected.

You speak of the ability for a black person to be able to speak for himself and him alone is an ability that we all the time. It isn't, due to how the majority perceives us.

When innocent and/or unarmed men are shot in droves, people go to the police's aid by stating "It's a hard job, just look at Chicago".

As if the violence of Chicago justifies innocent and/or unarmed people's death. But to many it does. Because "that's how those people are, you can't be too careful".

Stating how things should be doesn't speak of how the world is. Black people are tired of being seen as a Monolith [https://www.google.com/search?client=avast&sxsrf=ACYBGNRJFASGkqdJtbB-Y318ymBJKtb_xQ%3A1570113230758&ei=zgaWXfD5LcKV_Qa5tqnQAQ&q=black+people+monolith&oq=black+people+monolith&gs_l=psy-ab.3...19822.21364..21661...0.0..0.139.762.0j6......0....1..gws-wiz.y8bzHdS6ZUQ&ved=0ahUKEwjwmIHLp4DlAhXCSt8KHTlbChoQ4dUDCAs&uact=5], but we are. We are asked to sweep our feelings under the rug far too often.

I already stated that as an individual I am in awe of what he can do. I respect that aspect of it. but with Black Culture, how we are perceived is all about precedents. And while I admire the hell out of Brandt for being able to do what he did, I as a black person always have to be aware of what precedents are being set by the current headliner's actions.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I saw a youtube video about Botham's brother, Brandt, and how he forgave Amber and hugged her [https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/botham-jean-brother-amber-guyger-hug/index.html].

I have a problem with him doing it. And that's my biggest problem of all. That I have any issues of him forgiving.

You see, even when we have to forgive, we forgive as a monolith.

I have a brother. I dislike him greatly. He saddled me with my parents when they both had strokes and was more concerned about his life than helping us out. I hate him. And I would never forgive his killer so quickly and so publicly as Brandt did. Thinking about it, I can't say I'll never forgive. But it would take a lot. A-fucking-lot.

And honestly, Brandt is spiritual and he might find strength in doing this. He might even think this is what Botham wanted him to do. and while I can't wrap my head around it, I as an individual can make peace with it.

But my issue is this. Almost every perceived action of a few in the black community echoes within all of us to non-blacks. We all play basketball because of the popular perception. We all are thugs because they have seen people wear some clothing and assumed that those people were thugs. We all love Orange soda because... you know, I just realized I don't know why people think that. Doesn't everyone who drinks soda like orange soda?

Anyway, that's what's killing me. Because this very public and very controversial trial, everyone is looking for some type of hallmark or rubric to understand and figure out how we're going to proceed next as a society with these race relations. I'm afraid that people will look at Brandt's forgiveness and expect it over and over again. Because this will happen again. More 'mistakes'. More 'horrible tragedies'.

As it is, there's little understanding on why black people take to the streets to protest unjust police shootings. There are people in this world who legitimately don't get why Blacks get so upset that another unarmed or nonthreatening black man (usually) was shot down. Some people honestly think blacks make a big deal about these constant shootings. Now, we have Brandt's example and I can just feel people ready to run to it the second the next shooting comes up and while we're mobilizing a protest, someone on some right-wing show will tell them to calm down and handle it like Brandt.

And this is what Vexes me about his actions. As an individual human being, I am humbled and in awe of someone doing something like that. As a black man, I realize we're never individuals. And I can see this action being used against us. And I hate that I have to think in 4d chess anytime there's a black person in media doing anything. And I super hate that I have to judge someone's healing process because I know it will have ramifications for all of us.

COULD. NOT. HAVE. SAID. IT. BETTER. MYSELF.

When I saw this story, I was immediately torn in half: the part of me that understands and admires the virtue that is forgiveness, and the part of me that watched in horror as a black man kowtowed and silenced the voice of the movement for black humanity, which is exactly what so many people, who don?t understand or dismiss black outrage, wanted.

You are SO correct. Brandt has handed the willfully deaf ?ALL Live Matter/Police Lives Matter? groups all they needed: an example of a ?good boy? we should all aspire to be like the next time one of us is wrongfully killed; be quite, forgive and forget; hell, cm?ere and give us a hug while you?re at it.

And what hurts the worst is that it comes on the coattails of one of the most egregious examples of the incidents that has us shouting to have our lives valued: a black man in his own home, and a cop busted in and killed him for literally no reason. It wasn?t a traffic stop gone wrong; he wasn?t disobedient or belligerent with police ?just doing their jobs;? he wasn?t in the wrong place at the wrong time; he wasn?t a threat to anything but that bowl of ice cream, and it?s over this incident where one of us decides to take to the skies above the high road?

Ultimately, Brandt is the one dealing with this loss; I do not ask that he think beyond his brother and his family; he did not ask to be the face of a movement, so I cannot expect anything from him.

But yeah?

 

[Saelune]

That story is just too fishy for me. There had to have been something shady going on there, nobody can be this dumb.

Either way, good thing that she's going away. Lock your doors.

when this first happened it was reported she was drunk. The police department determined on their own she wasnt. So maybe they swept it under the rug, so no one looks into drinking on the job and drunk driving police.

Either way color me surprised. I totally expected her to get off. Makes me wonder though if a white Male officer would have been found guilty? And I say that as a white Male- it's interesting the cop found guilty was a woman.

I am surprised you made this point before I could.

I am absolutely glad she got punished, but I do think that male cop after male cop is not punished, but this woman not given the same treatment?

No if anything a male would be punished harsher. It's documented that women get something like half as severe sentences for the same crime as men do.

They get to throw a cop under the bus to help PR and they get rid of a woman who is trying to do a 'man's job'.

We're talking cops here, not regular criminals.

Is being a cop a man's job? First time I hear that lol. I don't know of anyone in this day and age who'd really think that.

Oh please, you absolutely have heard that. PoliceMAN is one of THE 'Man' jobs. Like, its number two after BusinessMAN and before FireMAN. (Number 4 is MailMAN)

Its a physical job about power and violence. Seriously, it is one of the most stereotypical 'Man' jobs out there.

 

[Saelune]

I saw a youtube video about Botham's brother, Brandt, and how he forgave Amber and hugged her [https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/botham-jean-brother-amber-guyger-hug/index.html].

I have a problem with him doing it. And that's my biggest problem of all. That I have any issues of him forgiving.

You see, even when we have to forgive, we forgive as a monolith.

I have a brother. I dislike him greatly. He saddled me with my parents when they both had strokes and was more concerned about his life than helping us out. I hate him. And I would never forgive his killer so quickly and so publicly as Brandt did. Thinking about it, I can't say I'll never forgive. But it would take a lot. A-fucking-lot.

And honestly, Brandt is spiritual and he might find strength in doing this. He might even think this is what Botham wanted him to do. and while I can't wrap my head around it, I as an individual can make peace with it.

But my issue is this. Almost every perceived action of a few in the black community echoes within all of us to non-blacks. We all play basketball because of the popular perception. We all are thugs because they have seen people wear some clothing and assumed that those people were thugs. We all love Orange soda because... you know, I just realized I don't know why people think that. Doesn't everyone who drinks soda like orange soda?

Anyway, that's what's killing me. Because this very public and very controversial trial, everyone is looking for some type of hallmark or rubric to understand and figure out how we're going to proceed next as a society with these race relations. I'm afraid that people will look at Brandt's forgiveness and expect it over and over again. Because this will happen again. More 'mistakes'. More 'horrible tragedies'.

As it is, there's little understanding on why black people take to the streets to protest unjust police shootings. There are people in this world who legitimately don't get why Blacks get so upset that another unarmed or nonthreatening black man (usually) was shot down. Some people honestly think blacks make a big deal about these constant shootings. Now, we have Brandt's example and I can just feel people ready to run to it the second the next shooting comes up and while we're mobilizing a protest, someone on some right-wing show will tell them to calm down and handle it like Brandt.

And this is what Vexes me about his actions. As an individual human being, I am humbled and in awe of someone doing something like that. As a black man, I realize we're never individuals. And I can see this action being used against us. And I hate that I have to think in 4d chess anytime there's a black person in media doing anything. And I super hate that I have to judge someone's healing process because I know it will have ramifications for all of us.

Oh I always hate that shit. She doesnt deserve forgiveness, and all those other times the 'victim's family forgave the killer' should not have done it either.

If I got murdered in my own house for ANY reason, I would haunt that fucker forever if I could.

 

[Schadrach]

Either way color me surprised. I totally expected her to get off. Makes me wonder though if a white Male officer would have been found guilty? And I say that as a white Male- it's interesting the cop found guilty was a woman.

Bias in the criminal justice system goes the other way around - men tend to get higher bail, are more likely to be found guilty and tend to get longer sentencing than women. It's actually a wider gap than the one connected to race, and they both apply - which means white women tend to get it the easiest in the justice system, black men tend to get it the worst, but you're better off as a black woman than a white man. Odds are she'll get a more lenient sentence than her male counterpart would, though.

She walked into someone else's apartment and shot him as he rose from his chair somehow without recognizing that she wasn't in her apartment - unless she believes in home invaders that come in and redecorate but are also violent and dangerous or the two had an identical sense of decor there's just plain no excuse. The original claim that she was extremely drunk might have explained it (but not absolved her of any responsibility), but that had to be squelched by the PD quickly because that would lead to questions that would make the PD look bad.

I was bemused to see that the defence attempted to use the Castle Doctrine - that a homeowner has a right to kill an intruder - on the grounds that if she genuinely (even if mistaken) thought that was her flat, she had a right to lethal force. It would have been intolerably ironic, so I'm glad to see that it didn't work.

Yeah, her defense is likely the only people ever to try the argument that being able to lawfully kill an intruder into your home applies if you invade someone else's home and kill them, because you were so out of it that you thought it was your home.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Yeah, her defense is likely the only people ever to try the argument that being able to lawfully kill an intruder into your home applies if you invade someone else's home and kill them, because you were so out of it that you thought it was your home.

I can't even imagine the quagmire that could occur if it succeeded. All anyone would have to do when they want someone dead is get invited over to that person's place, make a huge showing of getting seemingly drunk, pass out and wake up blasting, saying that they were so out of their mind they thought they were in their own home and these people were intruders.

It sounds stupid? So does trying to use the Castle Doctrine after saying what seems to be falsehoods about the entire story.

 

[Trunkage]

Yeah, her defense is likely the only people ever to try the argument that being able to lawfully kill an intruder into your home applies if you invade someone else's home and kill them, because you were so out of it that you thought it was your home.

I can't even imagine the quagmire that could occur if it succeeded. All anyone would have to do when they want someone dead is get invited over to that person's place, make a huge showing of getting seemingly drunk, pass out and wake up blasting, saying that they were so out of their mind they thought they were in their own home and these people were intruders.

It sounds stupid? So does trying to use the Castle Doctrine after saying what seems to be falsehoods about the entire story.

You could also freely kill an annoying neighbour and claim that you got lost

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

That story is just too fishy for me. There had to have been something shady going on there, nobody can be this dumb.

Either way, good thing that she's going away. Lock your doors.

when this first happened it was reported she was drunk. The police department determined on their own she wasnt. So maybe they swept it under the rug, so no one looks into drinking on the job and drunk driving police.

Either way color me surprised. I totally expected her to get off. Makes me wonder though if a white Male officer would have been found guilty? And I say that as a white Male- it's interesting the cop found guilty was a woman.

I am surprised you made this point before I could.

I am absolutely glad she got punished, but I do think that male cop after male cop is not punished, but this woman not given the same treatment?

No if anything a male would be punished harsher. It's documented that women get something like half as severe sentences for the same crime as men do.

They get to throw a cop under the bus to help PR and they get rid of a woman who is trying to do a 'man's job'.

We're talking cops here, not regular criminals.

Is being a cop a man's job? First time I hear that lol. I don't know of anyone in this day and age who'd really think that.

Oh please, you absolutely have heard that. PoliceMAN is one of THE 'Man' jobs. Like, its number two after BusinessMAN and before FireMAN. (Number 4 is MailMAN)

Its a physical job about power and violence. Seriously, it is one of the most stereotypical 'Man' jobs out there.

You say that but in my native tongue there's a male and a female word for cops based on their gender so not growing up with that makes it now seem like more of the man in "human" not in "male". You know, like how mankind applies to women too?


Also, apparently she only got 10 years. This was kinda my point about women being sentenced less for the same crimes on average. This was an actual murder conviction too, it could go up to a life sentence.

 

[Batou667]

Oh please, you absolutely have heard that. PoliceMAN is one of THE 'Man' jobs. Like, its number two after BusinessMAN and before FireMAN. (Number 4 is MailMAN)

Its a physical job about power and violence. Seriously, it is one of the most stereotypical 'Man' jobs out there.

What kind of sexist dinosaur are you? Police officer, business person, firefighter, postal worker. These arbitrarily gendered preconceptions will only live as long as people perpetuate them, you know. Try being part of the solution, maybe.

 

[Agema]

Yeah, her defense is likely the only people ever to try the argument that being able to lawfully kill an intruder into your home applies if you invade someone else's home and kill them, because you were so out of it that you thought it was your home.

The weird thing is, I see the logic.

If we take the principle of mens rea, it seems (to my totally not a legal expert mind) that if you can demonstrate to the court that you have good reason to believe that is your home, you should not be found guilty. The key thing, I think, is "good reason", because I do not think that being addled by tiredness, alcohol, drugs etc. would qualify as a good reason. And, arguably, juries could still decide screw that, you don't get to go into someone else's home and shoot them dead whatever the finer technical points.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Yeah, her defense is likely the only people ever to try the argument that being able to lawfully kill an intruder into your home applies if you invade someone else's home and kill them, because you were so out of it that you thought it was your home.

The weird thing is, I see the logic.

If we take the principle of mens rea, it seems (to my totally not a legal expert mind) that if you can demonstrate to the court that you have good reason to believe that is your home, you should not be found guilty. The key thing, I think, is "good reason", because I do not think that being addled by tiredness, alcohol, drugs etc. would qualify as a good reason. And, arguably, juries could still decide screw that, you don't get to go into someone else's home and shoot them dead whatever the finer technical points.

This dead horse is thoroughly beaten, but in seeing the logic in a very narrow, specific silo, it could make sense.

But outside of that silo and layering the facts upon the individuals and situation involved, Guyger was a trained police officer, ideally trained to observe and think rationally in high stress situations. She admitted to shooting with the intent to kill when a mere two second application of her skills (hell, basic observational skills) would have avoided the whole unfortunate situation.

Would this have been a justifiable homicide had she been on duty? Are our police trained to shoot to kill every time they?re startled unexpectedly? E.g.: She respond to a potential domestic violence incident, two people engaged in a heated, loud argument. She walks into the apartment and sees the arguing couple, and while she?s asserting her authority, a third person (say a brother or cousin) walks into her periphery from an adjacent room; could she justify shooting this unexpected third person? Would it even cross her mind to do so?

She had the wherewithal to locate her gun, unholster it, take the safety off, take aim on center mass and fire; sounds as if she was pretty sound of mind to me, and a scant few seconds between that last and penultimate actions, and Jean is still alive today with an amusing story about a cop busting into his apartment and drawing down on him while he was eating ice cream.

I do believe this was an accident, but the distinction, which she admits to, is that the ?accident? was not the killing. Meaning to kill A person, just not THAT person does not for manslaughter make.

 

[Saelune]

That story is just too fishy for me. There had to have been something shady going on there, nobody can be this dumb.

Either way, good thing that she's going away. Lock your doors.

when this first happened it was reported she was drunk. The police department determined on their own she wasnt. So maybe they swept it under the rug, so no one looks into drinking on the job and drunk driving police.

Either way color me surprised. I totally expected her to get off. Makes me wonder though if a white Male officer would have been found guilty? And I say that as a white Male- it's interesting the cop found guilty was a woman.

I am surprised you made this point before I could.

I am absolutely glad she got punished, but I do think that male cop after male cop is not punished, but this woman not given the same treatment?

No if anything a male would be punished harsher. It's documented that women get something like half as severe sentences for the same crime as men do.

They get to throw a cop under the bus to help PR and they get rid of a woman who is trying to do a 'man's job'.

We're talking cops here, not regular criminals.

Is being a cop a man's job? First time I hear that lol. I don't know of anyone in this day and age who'd really think that.

Oh please, you absolutely have heard that. PoliceMAN is one of THE 'Man' jobs. Like, its number two after BusinessMAN and before FireMAN. (Number 4 is MailMAN)

Its a physical job about power and violence. Seriously, it is one of the most stereotypical 'Man' jobs out there.

You say that but in my native tongue there's a male and a female word for cops based on their gender so not growing up with that makes it now seem like more of the man in "human" not in "male". You know, like how mankind applies to women too?


Also, apparently she only got 10 years. This was kinda my point about women being sentenced less for the same crimes on average. This was an actual murder conviction too, it could go up to a life sentence.

Glad your country is so progressive, but the US is not, and in the US, there is alot of sexism, and this crime was an American cop murdering an American citizen in America. If you dont understand American sexism, thats fine, I envy you, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist just because you dont know about it.

She probably only got 10 years because she is a cop, but she probably got more than no punishment at all, because she is a female cop.

Bigotry and abuse of power is very complex. Intersectionality. Ya know, like how there is a difference between being a white man, white woman, black man or black woman. Both white and black men have male privilage, but that black man is going to have a harder time than that white man in alot of areas. But then, some people are more ok with a black man than a white woman doing certain things.

 

[Saelune]

Oh please, you absolutely have heard that. PoliceMAN is one of THE 'Man' jobs. Like, its number two after BusinessMAN and before FireMAN. (Number 4 is MailMAN)

Its a physical job about power and violence. Seriously, it is one of the most stereotypical 'Man' jobs out there.

What kind of sexist dinosaur are you? Police officer, business person, firefighter, postal worker. These arbitrarily gendered preconceptions will only live as long as people perpetuate them, you know. Try being part of the solution, maybe.

Pointing out bigotry is not the same thing and you know it.

 

[Agema]

She probably only got 10 years because she is a cop, but she probably got more than no punishment at all, because she is a female cop.

She probably only got ten years because she's obviously remorseful and poses a very low risk of reoffending when she gets out. She fucked up catastrophically; she didn't act out of premeditated malice or gain, or low impulse control rage that suggests she's enough of a threat to society to require very long-term quarantine.

 

[Silvanus]

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx

That's an interesting paper, thank you. Reading it now.

One minor correction, though; the paper cites a "63% average increase" in sentence length when "treated as male". If that were the case, that wouldn't represent sentencing "half as severe", but just under two-thirds.

 

[Seanchaidh]

This seems relevant. Why, oh why, would a witness for the prosecution be killed by several gunshot wounds? [tweet t="https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1180585156584697857"]

 

[Avnger]

This seems relevant. Why, oh why, would a witness for the prosecution be killed by several gunshot wounds? [tweet t="https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1180585156584697857"]

Are we going full r/conspiracy here now? What are you trying to say with this post? Make an assertion or give a theory that can be discussed/debunked/supported.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Are we going full r/conspiracy here now? What are you trying to say with this post? Make an assertion or give a theory that can be discussed/debunked/supported.

Cop sanctioned killing. Don't fuck with the Blue Line.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Are we going full r/conspiracy here now? What are you trying to say with this post? Make an assertion or give a theory that can be discussed/debunked/supported.

Cop sanctioned killing. Don't fuck with the Blue Line.

The gal who recorded the aftermath has been receiving death threats and was just fired from her pharmaceutical job and had her professional credentials revoked after they were threatened.

ACAB

 

[Kwak]

Are we going full r/conspiracy here now? What are you trying to say with this post? Make an assertion or give a theory that can be discussed/debunked/supported.

Cop sanctioned killing. Don't fuck with the Blue Line.

The gal who recorded the aftermath has been receiving death threats and was just fired from her pharmaceutical job and had her professional credentials revoked after they were threatened.

ACAB

In addition to uploading the video to social media, Bunny said she also turned it over to the Dallas County District Attorney?s office. It was after she uploaded the video that the harassment started.

?I did get a few threats from people saying they weren?t gonna leave any witnesses behind, telling me I need to watch my back, things like that,? she said.

She also said that trolls found the name of the pharmaceutical company that she worked for and began making harassing phone calls. They also found the company Facebook page and made posts calling her a ?radical,? ?anti-police,? and ?a black extremist.?

The company let Bunny go, she said, and told her that they ?didn?t want their company associated with a high-profile case.? When she threatened to go to the media with her story, she said the company then blacklisted her credentials, making it impossible for her to get further work in her field.