Bayonetta as a role model

[oldskoolandi]

If they really wanted her to be an Icon for women, she would be a role model for people to follow. Not some over-sexualized being.

Even her role is that of a steriotype. Shes a "Witch". Doesnt that kinda stand against what feminists want? Breaking the steriotype of women being weak, evil, or un-equal to men?

And i agree with you on the issue of her being completely unrealistic. 90% of all women dont have mile long legs, massive breasts, and a perfict behind. And most of them would never dream of wearing a suit half that tight unless theyer trying to turn tricks. Shouldent we be trying to get women out of skin tight suits, constantly blabbing sexual remarks?

Im all for strong, independant women, but theres a line you have to draw.
If that is your idea of what women should be, theres something horribly wrong with you.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being sexualised, and I don't agree that Bayonetta is over-sexualised. Sex is one of the most basic parts of our nature, why can't a role model embrace that?

She's also probably the least stereotypical 'Witch' I know of. No pointy hat or hooked nose here. Not sure witches were ever the antithesis of feminists either, nor were witches ever exclusively female.

As for the issue of her being unrealistic, the OP already addressed that her limbs were exaggerated. Nor does she have massive breasts to be fair.

 

[Rachel317]

-snip-

Again, you're another who has missed the point COMPLETELY. What do I have to say to make people realise that we shouldn't be focusing on her appearance? FFS, I addressed the absurdity of her limb length in the original post, if everyone would care to read it properly.

Can we get back to focusing on her personality, attitude and deeper characteristics rather than her appearance, PLEASE?

Also, being a witch doesn't mean to say she's evil. She helps to maintain the balance between Light and Dark (not necessarily Good and Evil) so that the world is not thrown into Chaos. The supposed "Good guys", to pair it down to your basic analysis, were attacking innocent people (the Angels attack Luka, and killed his father), actually. And bearing in mind, Father Balder was responsible for "this nightmare", so obviously the Umbran Witches aren't the "bad guys" at all.

I suggest you actually look into the topic before spouting inane assumptions and guesses.
And also, her breasts weren't massive, they are notably smaller than Lara Croft's, yet people still consider her to be an icon.

Why wouldn't a real woman dress in a cat suit like that? I've SEEN women dress like that. If they are proud of their bodies, then who are you to say that they wouldn't or shouldn't dress in whichever way they please? Why shouldn't women explore their sexuality in whichever way they see fit? Oh, I know, because a woman who is proud of her body and likes to show it off is negatively labelled as a "slut" or trying to "turn tricks", as you say. Why do you assume that all women act in a specific way just to appeal to, and appease, men?
You strike me as quite sexist, even though you'll deny it.

 

[Rachel317]

Heh, I like how people in here hit a brick wall and can't get over the visual presentation of that character, incapable for any abstract thought that goes beyond the "obvious" and superficial which, in actuality, is just them imposing their church "morality" onto this.

Maybe the world simply isn't ready for this yet.

Exactly. It's extremely bloody frustrating. I'm getting sense from posters such as yourself and the women who have contributed, but most of the guys seem completely incapable of looking at this any deeper. I also suspect quite a few of them are sexist to begin with, so that doesn't help.

 

[kouriichi]

-snip-

Again, you're another who has missed the point COMPLETELY. What do I have to say to make people realise that we shouldn't be focusing on her appearance? FFS, I addressed the absurdity of her limb length in the original post, if everyone would care to read it properly.

Can we get back to focussing on her personality, attitude and deeper characteristics rather than her appearance, PLEASE?

Also, being a witch doesn't mean to say she's evil. She helps to maintain the balance between Light and Dark (not necessarily Good and Evil) so that the world is not thrown intk chaos. The supposed "Good guys", to pair it down to your basic analysis, were attacking innocent people (the Angels attack Luka, and killed his father), actually. And bearing in mind, Father Balder was responsible for "this nightmare", so obviously the Umbran Witches aren't the "bad guys".

I suggest you actully look into what the topic before spouting inane assumptions and guesses.

Im not spouting insane assumptions and guesses.

The image of a woman is one of the most important if you want to argue "Icon". Rosie the Riveter is an icon for strong, independant women. Ellen Degeneres is an icon for strong, independant women.

Bayonetta is and over-sexualized peice of eye candy. She moans, sucks on loli-pops, has vanishing clothing, summons deamons to do her bidding, and "tortures" things.
Shes basically a sadists wet dream made reality.
Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

Even one peice of her wardrobe is there with no reason. Shimazaki, making of the game, has a thing for women with glasses. And her weapons wernt chosen for function. They were picked becasue Kamiya thought they would look hot in her hands. Shimazaki even loved the idea that her clothing would dissapere!
This character was basically designed around theyer sexual preferances and ideals.

You read waaaaay to much into the paper thin character.

 

[Rachel317]

Im not spouting insane assumptions and guesses.

The image of a woman is one of the most important if you want to argue "Icon". Rosie the Riveter is an icon for strong, independant women. Ellen Degeneres is an icon for strong, independant women.

I don't see either of those women as role models. But then, I'm not saying you're wrong for thinking differently. I view Baynetta much more analytically than you care to, and that's OK. But I take exception when you insinuate that I, along with the people who agree with me, am WRONG for an opinion.
I haven't said you're wrong, just that I disagree. The least you could do is show me the same respect.

Bayonetta is and over-sexualized peice of eye candy. She moans, sucks on loli-pops, has vanishing clothing, summons deamons to do her bidding, and "tortures" things.
Shes basically a sadists wet dream made reality.
Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

Even one peice of her wardrobe is there with no reason. Shimazaki, making of the game, has a thing for women with glasses. And her weapons wernt chosen for function. They were picked becasue Kamiya thought they would look hot in her hands. Shimazaki even loved the idea that her clothing would dissapere!
This character was basically designed around theyer sexual preferances and ideals.

You read waaaaay to much into the paper thin character.

I'm entitled to read into a character as much as I please and, vice versa, you are entitled to view her as shallowly as you have done.

Fair enough, the developers created a woman who they would want to be with in real life. Do you think it's any different with Lara Croft? Huge breasts that would give her back ache if she was real? They're not designed for practicality, and I'm aware of how shallow males will look at her. However, as you may have noticed, some of the male contributors, and many of the female ones, are able to see past the physical appearance, to what I'm talking about. I am not suggesting that Bayonetta couldn't do with some refining, but...the lollies? Come on, how hilariously small are they? That's not a representation of oral sex, that's saying that, if she was real, Bayonetta would be WAY more than you could handle.

If we weren't expected to look at things more deeply, they wouldn't have given her a well-rounded personality, an intricate backstory, or much of anything. As I said in the original post, if it was all about sex and fan service, they'd have made the game an 18 certificate and included actual sexual acts. We analyse Shakespeare, Orwell, Wlde, Pope...why shouldn't we analyse the deeper aspects of video game characters too?

And, just so you know, one of the lead designers of Bayonetta herself was a woman.

 

[kouriichi]

[

Im not spouting insane assumptions and guesses.

The image of a woman is one of the most important if you want to argue "Icon". Rosie the Riveter is an icon for strong, independant women. Ellen Degeneres is an icon for strong, independant women.

Bayonetta is and over-sexualized peice of eye candy. She moans, sucks on loli-pops, has vanishing clothing, summons deamons to do her bidding, and "tortures" things.
Shes basically a sadists wet dream made reality.
Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

Even one peice of her wardrobe is there with no reason. Shimazaki, making of the game, has a thing for women with glasses. And her weapons wernt chosen for function. They were picked becasue Kamiya thought they would look hot in her hands. Shimazaki even loved the idea that her clothing would dissapere!
This character was basically designed around theyer sexual preferances and ideals.

You read waaaaay to much into the paper thin character.

I'm entitled to read into a character as much as I please and, vice versa, you are entitled to view her as shallowly as you have done.

Fair enough, the developers created a woman who they would want to be with in real life. Do you think it's any different with Lara Croft? Huge breasts that would give her back ache if she was real? They're not designed for practicality, and I'm aware of how shallow males will look at her. However, as you may have noticed, some of the male contributors, and many of the female ones, are able to see past the physical appearance, to what I'm talking about. I am not suggesting that Bayonetta couldn't do with some refining, but...the lollies? Come on, how hilariously small are they? That's not a representation of oral sex, that's saying that, if she was real, Bayonetta would be WAY more than you could handle.

If we weren't expected to look a toot things more deeply, they wouldn't have given her a well-rounded personality, an intricate backstory, or much of anything. As I said in the original post, if it was all about sex and fan service, they'd have made the game an 18 certificate and included actual sexual acts. We analyse Shakespeare, Orwell, Wlde, Pope...why shouldn't we analyse the deeper aspects if video game characters too?

And, just so you know, one of the lead designers of Bayonetta herself was a woman.[/quote]
Oh yes, ofcourse. Shimazaki.
And i agree, Lara Croft's physical apperance is all about fanservice.

But Bayonetta's personality isnt exactly "Icon" worthy. If women should strive to be comfertable with theyer sexuality, strong, and independant, they could look to almost any women in modern videogames.

Theres more that makes an "icon". What about public perception? And impact on society. Lara Craft is more of an icon, because shes not only the precursor to strong, gun toting women of today, but she also revolutionized videogames as we knew them at the time. Back in 1996, Tomb Raider was easly one of the best games ever realeased. Shes reconginzed as the "Most Successful Human Videogame Heroine" or all time by Guinness Book of World Records, and her franchise has made more money then most could ever hope. Shes got her own comics, several big hit movies, and dozens of game realeases. ((thought, not all of them good.....))

Bayonetta isnt refined enough as a character, or as a franchise to really warrent the title of "Icon."

 

[warm slurm]

Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

You make that sound like Buffy isn't much of a feminist icon. She's probably the biggest (from TV) for girls in the 90s/early 00s.

 

[Rachel317]

-snip-

First thing's first, Lara BEGAN as fan service, before developing into an icon/legend. Bayonetta could well be the same. Most of the "strong" women in video games are ENTIRELY unrealistic, as they are often presented as wholly unapproachable, Ice Queens who don't need men. Bayonetta turned the stereotype on it's head by acknowledging that she loves sex. She's one of few female characters who has an in depth personality, but that treats sex in the blasé way that it SHOULD be treated. It shouldn't be a taboo subject, and it shouldn't be surrounded by formality and rigidity.

Lara Croft has been round for over a decade now - she's had time to build up a following. We mustn't forget that, if it hadn't been Lara, it would have been another character, by another developer. Females would, eventually, have broken into games, partially due to the popularity of Sigourney Weaver as Ripley in Aliens, which really helped to turn around the female role.
But I'm not saying that Bayonetta can only be an icon when she's made PG massive amounts of money. IMO, she can still be looked up to for the representation she's had thus far.
I appreciate what you're saying, don't get me wrong. But I don't think someone needs to have a massive following to be an icon/role model. I look up to a woman in a band which doesn't have a HUGE amount of fans, due to her hard work and attitude. She might not be an icon to people who haven't heard of her, but some people will look up to her :/

Im sure you have male inspirations who I might now be able to understand, right? But just because that's the case, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong, we just obviously see inspiration in different things. And that's OK!

 

[Labyrinth]

If Bayonetta was a real woman, many guys would rather label her a "slut" because they know they could never have her, than risk getting shot down.

I find it decidedly ironic that someone is labelled a 'slut' when they won't sleep with another person. Where does the logic come from, vain hope that the woman in question will be and relent?

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Bayonetta: I'm every woman.

Kay....

Nobody insinuated that.
Name one male character who is TRULY an every man. And Gordion from Half Life doesn't count, because he doesn't speak, thus the player is invited to create his personality and backstory, or possibly even to project themselves on to him.
One character with a fully developed personality with the same, normal conflicts, problems, strengths and weaknesses as a normal guy. They don't exist, because they're fantasy people. They may be conflicted on some levels, but other than Homer Simpson in the Simpson games, a fantasy "every man" doesn't exist, because they're not fun to play.

How about the character named "Everyman" in that famous morality tale?

 

[M Rotter]

I think that everyone needs to characterize both genders outside of sex before going anywhere near the sexuality thing. Not ignore it obviously because sexuality is apart of the human condition, but if you dont have a solid foundation of understanding, the rest is more shaky.But how to do any deliberate characterization of anything that's not linked directly into our brains i think is a tall order because anything that's not is severely open to interpretation. People are going to see what they want to see in a visual media.

 

[M Rotter]

i dunno i think the problem is is that people are comparing stereotypes to the example given, in this case Bayonetta. I mean these things wouldnt be a problem if everyone could forget the stereotypes. Obviously thats in a perfect world and unlikely but shouldnt that be what we're striving for? Comparing things to old stereotypes is just going to make a new one. Sure the new one might not be as "offensive" but really generalizing any group of people is offensive (and not generalizations like christians believe in god but generalizations like women are emotional and guys will fuck anything.)

 

[Rachel317]

I find it decidedly ironic that someone is labelled a 'slut' when they won't sleep with another person. Where does the logic come from, vain hope that the woman in question will be and relent?

I didn't explain this very clearly. What I meant, is that it's easier to criticise something than to try and get it for yourself. I don't mean she would be a slut, as you say she doesn't sleep with just anyone, but women get tarred with that brush due to the way they look, act and dress as opposed to the truth of the matter. So it's easier to say, "Oh yeah, I don't want her, she's a slut" than admit you would fail before you even TRIED to get her.

i dunno i think the problem is is that people are comparing stereotypes to the example given, in this case Bayonetta. I mean these things wouldnt be a problem if everyone could forget the stereotypes. Obviously thats in a perfect world and unlikely but shouldnt that be what we're striving for? Comparing things to old stereotypes is just going to make a new one. Sure the new one might not be as "offensive" but really generalizing any group of people is offensive (and not generalizations like christians believe in god but generalizations like women are emotional and guys will fuck anything.)

Also this. People are unable to see past her physical appearance, and you're right, we're not meant to be talking stereotypes, but what Bayonetta as a character can do to abolish these stereotypes. One stereotype is that women aren't as sexual as men, but this is completely inaccurate, it's just that it's frowned upon to acknowledge it. If a guy sleeps with 5 girls a night, he gets high-fives from his friends and congratulated. A woman does the same, and she's a slut. There is STILL oppression, even in today's society, it's just that it's not quite as obvious as it used to be.

 

[likalaruku]

1)Not going to agree with this one unless she's a dominatrix.

3)If you're going by American standards, Rosie O'Donnald represents the current trend in modern female form. Haha.

 

[Rachel317]

1)Not going to agree with this one unless she's a dominatrix.

3)If you're going by American standards, Rosie O'Donnald represents the current trend in modern female form. Haha.

Look at Monkey from Enslaved; he runs around with no shirt on, and skin tight pants. Is he JUST eye candy for women? Is he an arse hole who likes to show off his chest, or is that just part of his character. Is Dante a sodding egotist because he runs around with his chest bared? Or can these outward appearances be overlooked to the reasons WHY they dress like that, or act in a certain way?

And no, I'm not going by "American standards", I'm English and don't know who Rosie O'Donnald is.
I'm not going by ANY standards, just in general.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Eventhough you do make good points, I don't consider Bayonetta a good female rolemodel. Simply because she isn't going to be looked at as anything but a sexual fantasy. I don't mind a little eye candy, but Bayonetta seemed to relish in sexual inuendo to the point of blatent fan service.

I think that feminism has pretty much destroyed itself in that regard. When you look at stars like Beyonce or Lady Gaga, do you see a shallow objectification of women or feminists who are using their sexuality to empower themselves? Either way, it only seems to solidify the idea of women as sexual playthings.

I am more or less going to have to agree with this, frankly. Although decent points are made by the OP, as well.

However, I still can't play a game in which the lead female character has legs 6 feet long on their own either. Just creeps me right the fuck out.

 

[likalaruku]

Not familiar with Enslaved. Do not want to see shirtless men.

 

[Rachel317]

"Objectification is the process by which an abstract concept is treated as if it is a concrete thing or physical object."

Do you live in China or something? or were you just too lazy to google it?

Aren't you the one who is objectifying her by saying she's the "epitome of objectifying women" then?
You pretty much are treating that fictional character as a concrete thing. Aren't you.

She is only objectified if you objectify her.
It's like saying that pole dancing degrades women. Well...no, not really. They choose to pole dance, for their own pleasure or someone else's, whatever their reasons, but who REALLY is being used in this instance? The women, in full control of the situation, or the men who willingly part with their money to get a glimpse of flesh, with no hope of anything more?

I don't mean to be rude, but I get the impression that you, too, have absolutely missed the point of my argument. I'm getting a little tired of countering this argument. She's a deeper character than just the sexual front, as is seen in game if you care to look for it, and evidenced by the developers of the game who have given her a well-rounded personality for a reason. Why must she shy away from her sexuality? Why does this devalue her as a woman?
Still a lot of sexism and oppression kicking around...

Not familiar with Enslaved. Do not want to see shirtless men.

Doesn't matter, that doesn't mean a male character, running around without a shirt on, doesn't exist. Is he objectified and sexualised purely for the female gamers?

 

[Rachel317]

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Who would've thought that.

It's like calling something "racist", you know. A self-perpetuating concept.
People were calling resident evil 5 "racist" unaware that by doing so, they themselves were "racist" because of their inability to see the black zombies as what they were: zombified human beings.
By labeling bayonetta an "objectification of women and nothing else" you're robbing her of the possibility to represent something else.

And you're not even aware that you're the one doing the objectification.

Exactly this. Well said, 9_6.

Also, the lead designer of Bayonetta was a woman so...point null and void.

 

[jamesworkshop]

Its time to call in the big guns:
http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

As usual, 'MovieBob' is able to analyze things with enough sense of intelligence to make valid points, backing up his points with evidence as necessary. For every criticism that someone would have, he already thought of it and already made counterpoints to them.

And for the next act:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viDFTwy5LeA

A gameplay vid of Bayonetta, showing off combat and such. The 'Cammy kicks' in particular are pretty hilarious, and the idea of having her being both silly and empowering just seems odd. Its as 'MovieBob' said, she may be the one and only example of a woman that's both empowering and hyper-sexualized. Her oddly-long legs have a purpose if you watch the combat, its to allow her to pull off those moves and aim the guns on her shoes in ways to survive. Not perfect, but it has a purpose. As for her hair and other fetishized looks, that's up to individual views, but again 'MovieBob' made lots of points.

The glasses imply a degree of intelligence, though its not entirely fleshed out. The hair is that way perhaps to facilitate the creation/removal of clothing. The legs, as mentioned, are that way to facilitate combat in very specific ways, she couldn't move around like she does otherwise (hopping around like a spider almost, how fitting).

Even the lollipop-fetish thing is decently analyzed, and its explained as something that's supposed to be a stab at social commentary.

In other words, Bayonetta's character is more complex then at first glance, she seems hypersexualized but she's managed to pull off being empowered rather than submissive or being an 'ice queen'. While Bob didn't even mention FF6's female characters, his other points are valid enough to make sense.

So yeah, Bob makes this a /thread. ^_^

I agree with his points but you really cannot /thread with a youtube video, bob's opinion is not the only game in town