I am going to ignore your your choices and give you a reply that has nothing to do with your grievances. So ponies.Fawxy said:
BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
You know what else hampers whether games are considered art? Making shitty games or parts of games. Furthermore, nobody is forcing Bioware to change the ending. However, if they want to salvage much of their good will and reputation for future games it is in their best interests to do so.
You can compare video games to art all you want but you have to remember video games are interactive. I guess what I mean is that they can be subject to change. Almost any game now these days have patches, not only for fixes but new minor content at least. I see them as a living animal, as long as their is a large community to play it.
Video games can be stronger than any other media because of this. Even if the endings were better/perfect or whatever, BioWare plans to put out more content. Regardless if the next thing for Mass Effect is taken for better or worse, it still adds on to it. It becomes more than what it was.
Again, it's just art in a different sense. Just like acting for plays or movies, putting graphics together for an advertisement, writing a creative story, even basic painting or sculpting, it's all art. The people behind these things pour themselves into it, usually, it's a part of them.
Of course, I'm just rambling on here since I'm bored. In the end, I just hope this leads to better games but who knows what will turn up in the end.
Video games can be stronger than any other media because of this. Even if the endings were better/perfect or whatever, BioWare plans to put out more content. Regardless if the next thing for Mass Effect is taken for better or worse, it still adds on to it. It becomes more than what it was.
Again, it's just art in a different sense. Just like acting for plays or movies, putting graphics together for an advertisement, writing a creative story, even basic painting or sculpting, it's all art. The people behind these things pour themselves into it, usually, it's a part of them.
Of course, I'm just rambling on here since I'm bored. In the end, I just hope this leads to better games but who knows what will turn up in the end.
Alot of people are missing the point. If you are told that your decisions will change how the game will end, and there will not be endings labeled A, B and C, and then the exact opposite happens, people are going to say "What the hell man?"
It's like being told you can build your own sandwich. And told there will be various meats and cheeses and whatnot to choose from to make the sandwich yours. And you really want this sandwich, the idea of being able to work to assemble an(at least somewhat) unique sandwich, makes you more and more excited as you stand in line. You finally get to the counter, thinking there will be a good number of items to choose from based on what the ad that brought you here told you. I mean, how could one misinterpret:
"...It?s not even in any way like the traditional [sandwiches],
where you can say how many [condiments] there are or whether you got
[sandwich] A, B, or C?..The [sandwiches] have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them."
But when you finally get to the counter, you are told to choose between white brown or rye bread. You look at the server in confusion. The sandwiches aren't even well done, the only difference between the three are more or less, different colored breads. You had come into the sandwich shop because you were told you had a diverse choice, and what you were given was option A, B or C.
THAT is why people(from what I can tell, I can't speak for anyone other than myself) are filled with disappointment, confusion, and anger. They feel betrayed because they don't want your crappy sandwiches, but when they ask if they could have what was advertised, the owner of the shop says "We can serve you whatever we want, its our sandwich shop." That's just going to jab the hornet's nest.
It's like being told you can build your own sandwich. And told there will be various meats and cheeses and whatnot to choose from to make the sandwich yours. And you really want this sandwich, the idea of being able to work to assemble an(at least somewhat) unique sandwich, makes you more and more excited as you stand in line. You finally get to the counter, thinking there will be a good number of items to choose from based on what the ad that brought you here told you. I mean, how could one misinterpret:
"...It?s not even in any way like the traditional [sandwiches],
where you can say how many [condiments] there are or whether you got
[sandwich] A, B, or C?..The [sandwiches] have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them."
But when you finally get to the counter, you are told to choose between white brown or rye bread. You look at the server in confusion. The sandwiches aren't even well done, the only difference between the three are more or less, different colored breads. You had come into the sandwich shop because you were told you had a diverse choice, and what you were given was option A, B or C.
THAT is why people(from what I can tell, I can't speak for anyone other than myself) are filled with disappointment, confusion, and anger. They feel betrayed because they don't want your crappy sandwiches, but when they ask if they could have what was advertised, the owner of the shop says "We can serve you whatever we want, its our sandwich shop." That's just going to jab the hornet's nest.
You know, all this discussion about the ending is only drawing attention from a more serious matter. The fact that an entire character (Jarvix, or whatever, the African alien... I obviously didn't buy him) was created for the game but left out so they can squeeze another $10 from gamers.
It's a bad precedent, but completely overshadowed by the ending.
Also, how in the world does Bioware explain the fact that half the galaxy, despite promising to show up, missed the kickoff time and failed to show up to my End-of-the-Galaxy party? Where were they? If I had known they were going to bail, I never would have gone through the trouble of inviting them in the first place.
You can't claim that Bioware made their "artistic" ending. I'll give them artistic. What they did was lazy. People in certain, inaccessible locations suddenly appearing on a ship on the other side of the solar system? That's not art.
It's a bad precedent, but completely overshadowed by the ending.
Also, how in the world does Bioware explain the fact that half the galaxy, despite promising to show up, missed the kickoff time and failed to show up to my End-of-the-Galaxy party? Where were they? If I had known they were going to bail, I never would have gone through the trouble of inviting them in the first place.
You can't claim that Bioware made their "artistic" ending. I'll give them artistic. What they did was lazy. People in certain, inaccessible locations suddenly appearing on a ship on the other side of the solar system? That's not art.
Personally, I have actually lost any urge to buy anymore Mass Effect DLC, and this even stops me from giving a crap about Dragon Age. If they did this to ME, why wouldn't they burn DA to the ground too?
At this moment, I just don't care about future Bioware products, which only one other company has ever achieved with me. Welcome, Bioware, your seat is ready now, Activision has been waiting for you.
The first thing I did at the ending was point out everything AngryJoe had. I play a game for a good story, the whole game is ruined by this ending (At least to me), and I was still waiting for more on why the star Haestrom orbits was being screwed up by dark energy. Blargh.
At this moment, I just don't care about future Bioware products, which only one other company has ever achieved with me. Welcome, Bioware, your seat is ready now, Activision has been waiting for you.
The first thing I did at the ending was point out everything AngryJoe had. I play a game for a good story, the whole game is ruined by this ending (At least to me), and I was still waiting for more on why the star Haestrom orbits was being screwed up by dark energy. Blargh.
Just because a game is art, doesn't mean it's not bad art.
They did that already.Link Kadeshi said:
Two things:
One, we know we likely won't be happy with any ending Bioware writes now. We hope we will be satisfied though. Even if only a few of the promises originally made are reflected in the new ending, and not all of them - even if its still bittersweet - so long as its a more satisfying ending, the majority of this hate will die down.
Two, Mr Levine would do well to remember who funds his games. No, this is not a threat or a warning, and I honestly respect his opinion, but who funds Bioshock? It certainly isn't purely Irrational. If Irrational earned no money of the next Bioshock game, there wouldn't be another after that. The buyers fund the games, and if the buyers don't like the game, they won't buy. Games aren't purely art unless their done Indie for fun. As soon as you start putting profit margins, and need to earn money off your art to keep it afloat, it is a product. People don't like it, they won't buy it, and you won't get to make more art. Its the way things work. It is a better idea to fix a small thing about your art that gets many upset, and keep their loyalty to purchase more of your art, so that you can keep making art, rather than standing by what you think is right on principle, and being unable to make art again as nobody will fund it. This is how things work when you start using other's money to make your games, and Bioware owes us for our money. We don't think we're satisfied, we'll take our business elsewhere. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and really we're being nice by asking Bioware to change the ending. We could just walk away and not give them money again. Instead, we're acting like a girlfriend who's about to break up with you, but tells you exactly what you need to do to keep her.
One, we know we likely won't be happy with any ending Bioware writes now. We hope we will be satisfied though. Even if only a few of the promises originally made are reflected in the new ending, and not all of them - even if its still bittersweet - so long as its a more satisfying ending, the majority of this hate will die down.
Two, Mr Levine would do well to remember who funds his games. No, this is not a threat or a warning, and I honestly respect his opinion, but who funds Bioshock? It certainly isn't purely Irrational. If Irrational earned no money of the next Bioshock game, there wouldn't be another after that. The buyers fund the games, and if the buyers don't like the game, they won't buy. Games aren't purely art unless their done Indie for fun. As soon as you start putting profit margins, and need to earn money off your art to keep it afloat, it is a product. People don't like it, they won't buy it, and you won't get to make more art. Its the way things work. It is a better idea to fix a small thing about your art that gets many upset, and keep their loyalty to purchase more of your art, so that you can keep making art, rather than standing by what you think is right on principle, and being unable to make art again as nobody will fund it. This is how things work when you start using other's money to make your games, and Bioware owes us for our money. We don't think we're satisfied, we'll take our business elsewhere. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and really we're being nice by asking Bioware to change the ending. We could just walk away and not give them money again. Instead, we're acting like a girlfriend who's about to break up with you, but tells you exactly what you need to do to keep her.
Well, it can't be. Not a game like Mass Effect 3. Yes, it can have artistic qualities. Ultimately, though, it's a corporate product being produced for sale with the intention of generating profit. It's not art any more than a Hollywood blockbuster is.Muphin_Mann said:
Leonardo da Vinci wasn't Lead Artist over a department of 100 people reporting to an Executive Producer.
As others have already mentioned, did anyone seriously allege that Bethesda's artistic integrity was comprised when they released the Broken Steel DLC? Of course not, because that's patently ludicrous. BioWare are in no way be "forced" to make any changes. They could certainly add additional endings via DLC that actually deliver on the promises they made prior to ME3's release. You know, good business.
I'm all for videogames as art and all, but not every videogame is going to be art. People can be upset at the ending because while the producers of said "artistic" property made the final decision, is the player not part of the equation? Art doesn't exist without art critics, as was drummed into my head during the beginning of art history. A person doesn't decide what they created was art, other people decide if it was art or not. Ergo(Latin), things that one person considers art is not necessarily considered art by the society as a whole. Also, part of art is expression. It's supposed to be a visceral and emotional medium, and I don't see too many games matching that. It's a message that the artist is communicating through their work. What is possibly the deep message the writers of ME3 want to communicate to gamers? That no matter what you do, at the end of the day someone could just shoot you in the face?
Edit: I am not upset with the ending of ME3, I don't want to give the impression. I'm indifferent on the subject to be honest. It was a good game, Bioware had a good run with all the ME games. I applaud them for closing the chapter of a story that need not go on. Not that there isn't going to be more games in that universe, but it's best that Shepard is left to lie with his fate.
Edit2: The thing that makes me sad is pretentious twits like Ken Levine. I was done hearing anything this guy had to say the moment he made a female character attractive and then bitched that people found her attractive. He has very little to offer any conversation about games as art.
Edit: I am not upset with the ending of ME3, I don't want to give the impression. I'm indifferent on the subject to be honest. It was a good game, Bioware had a good run with all the ME games. I applaud them for closing the chapter of a story that need not go on. Not that there isn't going to be more games in that universe, but it's best that Shepard is left to lie with his fate.
Edit2: The thing that makes me sad is pretentious twits like Ken Levine. I was done hearing anything this guy had to say the moment he made a female character attractive and then bitched that people found her attractive. He has very little to offer any conversation about games as art.