BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal

[Seanfall]

Again, people make the claim that art is something that exists only in the mind of the artist and can't be changed and people just need to get that, and again comparisons are made to works in different forms of media!

Why don't we draw comparisons to other games when discussing the "change the ending" subject. Why, I myself can think of a game that was released a few years back that had its ending changed due to fan complaints.

Was Bethesda's artistic integrity less valuable than Bioware's when they changed the ending of Fallout 3? Didn't they also have the right not to let their fans bully them into submission?

Of course they did; they could've told fans "Nope, screw y'all, ending stays." They didn't though. They chose to listen to fans and change the ending because it was a good business move.

I believe games are art, but they're also a huge money making business. A business which is fueled by the fans, so it's a good idea from a business stance, to placate the fans. Now Bioware doesn't have to do this, they can say that they don't intend to change the ending and then the fans would drop the matter, and incidentally they'd probably also stop buying Bioware games.

They're perfectly within their rights to stick to their artistic vision and tell the fans to suck it up, but it would be a good business move for them to make an ending change DLC. Not just for Mass Effect 3's profits but for the profits of future Bioware games.

50,000+ people have expressed disappointment with Mass Effect 3's ending and many of them have said that they won't buy another Bioware product until their complaints are addressed. Assuming they all bought it new for 60 bucks, that's 3 million dollars in sales. Even if 50,000 is a small fraction of the 3.5 million people who've purchased the game, 3 million dollars is not a sum to sneeze at.
Now assuming those 50,000 people stay true to their word and never buy another Bioware game or product again, that's 3 million dollars in potentially lost sales. That might not matter for a hugely popular game like Mass Effect 3, but for a new IP or for a less popular series, that 3 million could make or break it.

They don't bring up examples of games changing their endings cause it hurts their arguments. I have never and still don't get how games are art. Their not their an entirely new kind of medium and comparing them to old forms of media is...well...stupid and an insult to the industry. That and from what I read their still not hearing our complaints. or are just ignoring them.

Also...did Ken Levine have anything to do with Bioshock 2? Cause wasn't that game made mostly cause fans asked for a follow-up game? Kinda the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Lillowh]

I'm a really tolerant person. I played through KOTOR late, but loved it. I bought ME and ME2 on release and paid for all the DLC and loved them. I Loved Dragon Age: Origins since release, bought all the DLC and DA:O:A, and while I didn't like DA2 as much, I didn't understand the rage at the ending and didn't find anything wrong with it. I consider Starwars Episode 1 to be a pretty enjoyable movie. I am very tolerant person when it comes to entertainment. I have never used the term "It ruined the series," and meant it before Mass Effect 3 (What Blair Witch Sequel?). Unless the indoctrination ending proves true, which I have come to accept as cannon since it pretty much covers every plothole in the game regarding the ending, I will most likely not be buying be buying another game for them.

Seems like ending of Neon Genesis all over again. Even though this technically makes more sense then the ME3 ending, imagine if this was in the last few pages of The Return of the King (would make more since Magic actually exists here and the "most important character in the universe" has been introduced in the series before this page). Do you think people should accept the ending since it's the artist's vision if this was what Tolkien wrote?

Spoiler

Yeah, I didn't think so...

 

[blind_dead_mcjones]

my 2 cents:

I grow sick of this 'games are art' argument, especially seing as in recent years people have taken to the belief that 'true art is angsty' when it is not, now obviously the ending shouldn't go to the extreme of rainbows and sunshine, but it also shouldn't have gone to other extreme which it did go to, a nice middle ground is the key. I mean FFS, if I want grimdark despair I'd watch the news (or get into warhammer 40k), the idea behind stories like this is to get away from the bleakness going on the world, not be reminded of it and how its unavoidable.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Ken Levine and other videogame auteurs respect the finished product.

...

Must... contain... rage...

GGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!! D:<

Huh...

We respect it when it comes to be what we been promised, true to the series, and not sucking. Mass Effect has been built on choices, the entire series has been about choices that carry over and had more weight. Kill the Ranci or spare it? Reprogram the Geth or kill them?

Some of us been literally building up to this point, we were expecting a radically different game depending on how we built up the last one. But all the hundreds of choices made, the characters that made it through and the species we had to kill, the alliances we created and the possible paths we didn't go barely meant anything. We loved the series, this isn't just your product. Each of us chose our own paths, each of us started from one place and spread out in a thousand ways.

Harry Potter ended in the way that fit the series perfectly. It was a linear path that has been built up over seven books/movies, with so many elements, objects, people, and things being brought back for a grand finale where it all comes together to complete the goal that had been set out from day one. The ending was satisfying, made sense both storywise and thematically in the world Rowling created and the direction she set the series off on.

And don't telling me it was the "writer's choice" like how the Prothean content was built "after the game was shipped." You threw the main writer of the series out Drew Karpyshyn with Neil Pollner), and it shows BIG TIME.

Shepard: "Why are the Geth heretics on the side of the Reaper's if we literally reprogrammed the Reaper's influence out of them?"

Legion: "The desion was 'diffcult.'"

Wasn't Legion's entire character tic that the Geth are so completely alien to biologicals in every single way, socially, indivdiuall (or lack their of) and MORALLY? How can race built on descions based on equations find any choice they make "difficult?"

Edit: One more thing on if Bioware actually fixes the ending either via patch or DLC. Some people will never be happy, sure, but people have been willing to forgive in the past. For example, do any of you remember the ending to Fallout 3? That crappy one where you follow a giant death robot that kills just about everything for you, has the easiest boss fight since Eggman, ends with either you or the girl to die to radiation, even if you had the supermutant, ghoul or ROBOT in your party? Broken Steel came out, gave us a proper ending, and ALL was forgiven.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

I don't want video games to be considered art, I want them to be bloody entertaining.

Hmm, what could art possibly be for?

1.)To provoke emotions.
2.)To provoke thought.
3.)In some cases, teach us something.
4.)In most cases, it gives us something interesting to look at.

If that isn't entertainment, I don't know what is.

 

[gundamrx101]

Yes because a trilogy of games built around players choices and actions should ignore those said actions and options for "art". Christ that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If Bioware wanted an 'artsy' ending done their way they shouldn't have put a moral choice system/player input into the game.

Oh and Casey Hudson shouldn't have promised 16 different endings.

 

[DTWolfwood]

From what i'm hearing, the ending only ended Shepards story, i.e. left EVERYONE ELSE'S STORY dangling that's what pissed ppl off. (I cared more for the characters i met than i did about blandy mcbland, i.e. Shepard)

Seeing i haven't played the game as one of the few who are boycotting the thing, I'd like to say it would be nice if they wrapped up everyones story along with Shepard.

You know pull off an ending like Lord of the Rings. It doesn't have to be elaborate just something to say "hey here's what everyone else is doing with their lives after the apocalypse." Or liken to a lot of 80's and 90's movies, where its just text/narration talking about the important characters in a black background with still shots of them, b4 the closing credits.

Honestly think any kind of closure (for the crew) is better than none at all.

 

[beniki]

Well, we'll see.

I'm pretty sure that in the coming months we'll see a slew of DLC for Mass Effect. Every time they release one, it will come with the tag line "Questions answered!"

I don't think the ending was the developers choice. Or at least I hope not. I hope it's just a command from the upper echelons of EA to make it open ended.

Mass Effect 3's ending, in my opinion, was not an artistic choice. It was a business one.

 

[13CBS]

I don't want video games to be considered art, I want them to be bloody entertaining.

Hmm, what could art possibly be for?

1.)To provoke emotions.
2.)To provoke thought.
3.)In some cases, teach us something.
4.)In most cases, it gives us something interesting to look at.

If that isn't entertainment, I don't know what is.

That depends on your definition for "art". For some, art is primarily, or even solely, for expressing something that the artist wants to express--sometimes at the expense of the audience.

 

[ThePurpleStuff]

Funny thing is, Bioware done it before.

Did you play Dragon Age: Origins? All they need to do is do the same thing, put text detailing the effect of your decision over a screenshot and probably have the VA read the lines. I would argue that implementing this is so cheap I don't see why they don't do it

And this is not new innovation, all of Fallout Games except 3 and Tactics use it, Alpha Protocol, Baldur's Gate 2 TOB, NWN 2, and even frickin Dungeon Siege 3 use it. This is why I replay New Vegas and Alpha Protocol over and over again, because I know that my decision will affect the world. Probably not in-game but it will be acknowledged in the ending.

Will people still complain about it? Definitely, but it will satisfy a lot of people because at least all of our decisions means something and the effect it had on the galaxy is acknowledged

And as someone who never even play ME series, can you even feel what we feel? They promised that all of our decision from ME1 till ME3 will greatly affect the ending and all the endings are wildly different depending on your decisions. And this is Bioware, Dragon Age:Origins shows that that they can write proper endings that covers every possible outcome.

what we got is this shitty half-assed ending where all of your hard decision means absolutely nothing and does not affect the ending at all. And you still wonder why everyone is pissed?

TL;DR : Bioware can write endings that covers every possible outcome, See the endings of Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age Awakening. Not the most elegant/best way to do it but it's functional

Just because I haven't played the ME games doesn't mean I don't know the frustration when I finish a game with a shitty ending. Doesn't matter what game, a crap ending is still crap and yeah you don't like it. Key examples, the fable series, first game's ending was actually pretty acceptable to me, second game's ending, so bad I don't even remember it, third game's ending, does anyone even care and remember it at this point? I didn't like some of the endings but I'm not going to Peter Molyneux and telling them to change it the way I want. I'm not comparing fable to ME but just an example of the endings. I'm not saying you shouldn't be angry or dissatisfied with it at all, but demanding bioware change the ending to fit your wants and desires I do not appreciate. How do we know this was their true intent, they haven't said anything yet, like "we ran outta time and EA made us push the game out too soon" or something like that. Or did I miss something? 16 different endings and making fully rendered cutscenes with them all or what they planned to do with it sounds like it'll take many more months to do than the release date allowed. I say just wait and see what happens later, if they release endings as DLC you pay 5-10 bucks for then yeah you can get mad then.

 

[Evil Alpaca]

Does artistic integrity go both ways?

If the fans do not have the right to complain about the end result, do the executives? Did the writers at Bioware tell EA that they needed more time because you can't rush artistic creativity?

If said executives pushed to have the game released early, does it still have the same artistic integrity?

 

[SilentVirus]

Picture this (See what I did there?). You are commissioning an artist to make a series of paintings that are tied into each other. The first one is beautiful, masterfully done, and it is sign of an upcoming paintings that will be equally good, if not better. The second painting is wonderful. Like the artist said, it takes place right after the first one. Like the first, it too is amazingly made. It builds up great anticipation for the final one. Now here's when things get shaky. The artist specifically says that how you wanted the previous paintings will impact the final painting. So the artist decides to go completely against what he said about the previous ones and just throws together a painting based off what they wanted, not you. It's disappointing. After all that, the artist pulls that little thing out. It's dishonest. Now I firmly think an artist should have a little bit of themselves in their art, put if you are making this art for someone else, you should also have what they want in that art. This wouldn't be a problem if it was made for the artist, by the artist. But it wasn't. It was being made for you and the artist. Now the artist is willing to fix the art to your preference in exchange for money. Now you don't have to buy that little fix, but you feel that it should have been there in the first place. Like, that's what was promised. You shouldn't have to pay more for what you already bought. Now no one is happy. Now you can't trust the artist to make commissions anymore.

Do you see what I'm trying to say here? They made all this hype about how things were going to be and then they lied. I know it sounds entitled, but the thing is, when your promised something, you rightfully deserve it. This is a concept we grew up with. It's bad when you make something for your fans, but make it the way you want it to be. Just you, not the fans, not both. You. Now I can't bring myself to play a Bioware game anymore because it tells me they are willing to break a promise, and then reconcile it by making you pay for what you were promised. It sucks. I don't care that the ending sucked. What matters is they are willing to do something like this. It's art only they can enjoy, not everyone. There is no "Retake Mass Effect 3", because apparently we never had it in the first place.

 

[johnnnny guitar]

sums up my thoughts pretty much

 

[Vuljatar]

Oh, wow. What a shame, I just lost literally all my respect for Ken Levine.

He must not have a fucking clue what he's talking about, in which case he should have kept his mouth shut. Because I find it really hard to believe that he could honestly dispute the points in this article. http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/

What an asshole.

 

[Zortack]

A. Whatever claim to art Mass Effect had died when it created this rediculous cop out ending.

B. A baker is free to bake whatever bread he wants. Just don't whine if nobody buys it.

 

[loa]

Oh come on, thousands of people get pissed at movies all the time which are an "artform" too.
Games are much more modular than that. You can't really call a game a "finished product".
Not in the day and age of DLC, MMOs and constant patches.
Games constantly expanding is the norm now, sometimes due to the feedback of the players.

So what's the deal?

Why apply antiquated perceptions of "what art is" onto a completely new medium that follows completely different rules?

 

[Alandoril]

I respect the artist's right to determine the course of their narrative, but the "endings" to ME3 surely could not have been the work of a paid professional.

When you start a story, you have a duty to actually finish it.

 

[orangeapples]

Well, they did claim that the different endings wouldn't be able to be classified as A, B and C and what-not, and in Bioware's defense, you can't classify the endings in A, B and C. You can't have A, B and C when you only have 1 ending.

And I can't wait for the DLC that takes place in the galaxy in which you clearly destroyed all sentient life.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

A game with an ending like ME3's clearly wasn't subjected to a process like that - or if it was, the developers were obviously allowed to ignore the feedback. Does that make games more of a pure artform, since they're not subjected to that same level of corporate interference?

I wonder if this will lead to EA giving their developers less freedom in the future. Because knowing EA, making Bioware patch in a proper ending but still letting their developers do their own thing isn't on the table. It'll come down to whether they hate their developers or their customers more.

 

[knight4light]

has anyone thought that maybe the entirety of me3 is the "ending" all the choices you made in me1 and me2 let you be able. or not be able to do certain things in me3. me1: dont kill queen. dont have to worry about queen betraying you if you choose to save her in me3. me2 free grunt (remember that IS a choice too) and make him loyal. and dont have to worry about him dying in me3. me 2. thane...hes thane. lets you talk tohim and then have a epic moment of his fight with kai leng. and then ultimately the sweet revenge we get to have later. keeping genophage data. keeps eve alive. legion andhis loyalty mission. as well as his interaction with tali. keep both fleets.

every past decision HAS had an impact on the ending. what did you think was going to happen. a super massive free for all with two armies vs eachother....

http://youtu.be/M2DshotexMU

honestly. the entire point of the third is that it is the ending! all leading up to basically cocking the giant freak'n crucible gun and pulling the trigger. one way or another. it was going to end similarly. load the gun and fire. thats even less choice.. fire or dont fire. it could have been a cutscene right then and there. but at least we got a choice HOW to fire it. yeah. it cut off suddenly after that.. would be nice for maybe like a memorial or something to sheperd. but meh. to me.. the entire game was the ending. and piece by piece the choices added to it. but meh. what do i know.

hmm.. thinking about it... that whole armies vs armies would be pretty epic ok yeah. i want a better ending but still. xD