Not all games need a great story, some stories are a means to an end. Why are you shooting enemies? Nuclear bombs. Done. lol. Some games are story based, some are game based.
Bioshock Writer Fed Up With Industry
- Thread starter Cognimancer
- Start date
I really wish she would reconsider and find another outlet in the games industry to make storytelling better. Still, I can understand her overall frustration with her job. Unless she was fully in charge of the product from start to finish or part of a collaborative effort that worked together to make a great game instead of cranking out a mediocre game for a quick buck, she's nothing more than a replaceable cog in the massive machine that is AAA gaming. This is just another sad indication that the AAA market, if not the entire industry, is facing a moment where the disgraceful actions within the industry will cost them in the long run. I don't mean to be the guy totting around a sign that says "Repent! The End is Nigh!" but the gaming industry needs to get its shit together and fast if it really wants to survive in the economy and be taken seriously as an art form.
Couldn't she try to get work on other things than shooters? I mean, there's lots of games that don't involve any sort of violence at all, or stylizes its action so there's no need to "justify" the murdering of hundreds of grunts, and all of them benefit from a good context.
dont give up
writing a book is one thing but presenting a story in video game format is so much more complex, and if done right can be rewarding, patience is needed, for i doubt that we have seen the full potential. writing was invented long befor cicero and shakspeare. and it took a long time for a dickens of a victor hugo to do their work.
but a video game is more than that the script does have to be goo and it can be very meaningfull. but the coders and the graphical artists and even the voice actors have to work together its not a one man affair. thus briliance is a group affair encompassing all the desisions of the whole team. if the management is stifling now we will get stifled games but we are seeing more and more mature games that are still fun and there will be even more later as the genre evolves.
writing a book is one thing but presenting a story in video game format is so much more complex, and if done right can be rewarding, patience is needed, for i doubt that we have seen the full potential. writing was invented long befor cicero and shakspeare. and it took a long time for a dickens of a victor hugo to do their work.
but a video game is more than that the script does have to be goo and it can be very meaningfull. but the coders and the graphical artists and even the voice actors have to work together its not a one man affair. thus briliance is a group affair encompassing all the desisions of the whole team. if the management is stifling now we will get stifled games but we are seeing more and more mature games that are still fun and there will be even more later as the genre evolves.
Wait, she thinks there should be more writers than technical staff for video games? Most forms of media have only a few writers and then large staff to create the platform for the story they're telling. The bigger the platform, the more staff you need. I can't think of any medium where that ratio is inverse. If you don't have a writer, you don't have a story for the platform to be made for and two many cooks do ruin a soup. Especially where story telling is concerned. In gaming, it requires more hands to create the platform than you'd see in most other industries. Writers are seldom also super savy software developers also. Though that's a convenient skill combination in game development. But you only need one really good writer to tell a fantastic story. You need multiple writers to bounce great ideas and be able to filter an even better story out of it. But you'd almost never need more writers than developers unless the game mechanics were remarkably simple. Perhaps she could offer her services to independent developers who have a smaller technical staff and can't produce as robust a platform for storytelling as the large studios she's worked for can?
Saying that she wants to tell different kinds of stories is entirely apt as a reason to switch mediums. There are some stories that simply do not benefit from viewer interaction like games are all about. An example of the genre or type of story she's interested in telling without giving details would be great. What stories can't be told in gaming? Dear Esther already expanded the industry in a way I hadn't anticipated and there shouldn't be a reason why other stories couldn't also be designed in that kind of way.
I will say that the target market is mostly male, especially on consoles as I've already shown the math for her (only about 18% of console (360 or ps3) gamers were female in 2010). If she wants to tell stories that are more female oriented then there would be an investment wall she'd run into. But a writer of her caliber could change the face of gaming.
Saying that she wants to tell different kinds of stories is entirely apt as a reason to switch mediums. There are some stories that simply do not benefit from viewer interaction like games are all about. An example of the genre or type of story she's interested in telling without giving details would be great. What stories can't be told in gaming? Dear Esther already expanded the industry in a way I hadn't anticipated and there shouldn't be a reason why other stories couldn't also be designed in that kind of way.
I will say that the target market is mostly male, especially on consoles as I've already shown the math for her (only about 18% of console (360 or ps3) gamers were female in 2010). If she wants to tell stories that are more female oriented then there would be an investment wall she'd run into. But a writer of her caliber could change the face of gaming.
There simply is no mainstream medium without a template. Films often drape their stories on a very formulaic structure, successful novels give more freedom, but often have to adhere to genre conventions to be published. And games - well, games need to include gameplay, I'm afraid. That however does not mean that gameplay must be valued higher than story, but only that one has to use both carefully and prudently.
Then again, the notion of prudence is already too complex for most mainstream debates.
Then again, the notion of prudence is already too complex for most mainstream debates.
...depends on the game, really.
Some games, like Bioshock or The Walking Dead are very heavily led by storyline, and there should be a place for good writers in these games. Not every game should be a complex narrative tale, however. Sometimes; well, you just want to shoot shit up. Anyway, some of the best stories in video games are the ones that create themselves. There's a place for both, and I do agree that in a story-driven game the writers should have more creative control.
Some games, like Bioshock or The Walking Dead are very heavily led by storyline, and there should be a place for good writers in these games. Not every game should be a complex narrative tale, however. Sometimes; well, you just want to shoot shit up. Anyway, some of the best stories in video games are the ones that create themselves. There's a place for both, and I do agree that in a story-driven game the writers should have more creative control.
Right on! Most people seem to have this "f**k her we don't need her" attitude, but we should let her make her own choice if she feels this is where her career needs to go.-Dragmire- said:
The reason why The Walking Dead had such a great effect was that the story was ticking well with the gameplay. Yes, there weren't so many playable sections but that was the beauty of it, the emotional moments weren't followed by regular action sections. Every moment felt special.
Just as a general rule, I think it's best to give the benefit of the doubt on a subject to someone who's been more successful in that area than I have. I'm sure this woman knows what she's talking about. She clearly wants games to tell better stories and I imagine that if there were a practical way for her to do that, she would have taken it. I may think there's an easy way she could be writing better games but I doubt there's anything I can think of that she hasn't already considered.
This is exactly the kind of honest and open discussion we want with game developers and we should be supportive of anyone who sticks their neck out in this way.
This is exactly the kind of honest and open discussion we want with game developers and we should be supportive of anyone who sticks their neck out in this way.
I feel like i can just namedrop Bioware and win this argument, but someone probably already has.
*glances the games said writer has worked on*Desert Punk said:
How the fuck do you even say that? That's like saying the found of the Red Cross wasn't very charitable because she didn't donate enough money to a different charity. The woman's done work, fantastic work at times. Writing in the game industry gets no respect despite that, and she spends years working as a game writer, can get anywhere, and it's her somehow her fault for getting tired of it? There's a reason writers are tired of the David Jaffes of game development.
Eh, I dunno. I do agree that the almighty FPS genre is a bit of a serious hurdle to cross for most game scenarios, seeing as justifying and responding to the ages-old question of "Why do I have to shoot shit?" is more important than most gamers even realize - but I don't think the technical hurdles are that large.Bat Vader said:
This is a purely personal opinion, of course, but what seems to me like it's holding the medium back is the design culture, like she said. Look at how id Software barely even cared to supply us with a backdrop for RAGE. You could tell Carmack was somewhere in the metaphorical background, muttering "Oh, whatevs. Here's John Goodman and a pistol. Go shoot shit. I'm bored, now."
If it's not that, we're holding ourselves back because our games are apparently supposed and required by some sort of sacrosanct law to be empowerment fantasies. What if I genuinely want to play a deadbeat who can't catch a break *without* falling back on Bullet Time and bullet sponge mechanics so the end result is supposedly gritty? Why can't most devs think of player engagement beyond putting things in pine boxes for an early burial? I know killing something is pretty much the Alpha and Omega in terms of empowerment (you're taking freaking lives, I'd say that's pretty empowering as it is), but the real draw usually involves saving the world or solving some over-arching problem.
Why can't we focus on that, instead? I'm asking that knowing that adventure games do solve that question. Indie devs pushing adventure-type content aren't really part of the problem. I don't have to kill anything in Minecraft if I'm skilled enough and really commit to a no-kill project.
I understand what you're saying. There have been many a time where I have asked myself why do I have to shoot these guys to progress the story. Yeah, I do get sick of empowerment fantasies when all I want to do is have my character be a regular citizen in the world.IamLEAM1983 said:
One of the things I hated about Dante's Inferno was the fact that I had to fight. I think it would have worked well as an adventure game instead of an action game.
Personally, I think she should try and see if she could open her own game development studio, go to Valve, or try and kickstart her own game where she tries to break the mold and do what she has talked about.
Bioware a paragon of good writing? Maybe once upon a happier time that I personally would love to go back to but...sadly that's in the past.A Curious Fellow said:
If "good" is understood to mean "decent", then yeah, they're good writers. Like I told Bat Vader, though, they've set themselves in the RPG standards by which the protagonist has to be empowered. In an RPG, Western or Japanese, you're supposed to make a difference, or perhaps even change the world or save it. Typical empowerment stuff. That means you're stuck with specific tropes or story beats you have to hit, game after game after game. Mass Effect, to name just one, is almost a textbook case of the Hero with a Thousand Faces, with the only difference being that Shepard doesn't deny the Call to Adventure at the onset. He/She is a commander, a decorated vet at the onset, so it didn't make much sense to have that character dither around before taking control of the Normandy.erttheking said:
If they could break free from that mould and stop going for a paint-by-numbers story structure, they'd be great writers. Drew Karpyshyn puts pretty good lore together, his primary constraints involved predetermined squad members, romance subplots and your usual multi-part and overarching quest. If he'd been free to play with the game's structure, the end result would have been epic.
Problem is, BioWare knows what fans are expecting of them by now:
1. customizable protagonists
2. rich backdrops and incidental lore that always includes a looming threat
3. team-building narrative concerns (because these extra characters have to come in from somewhere, right?)
4. interpersonal relationships
5. "meaningful" choices. As in, you know, not really all that meaningful. Just enough to throw the occasional curveball.
Check that list and you can design a BioWare RPG with your eyes closed. If they'd break free of that, they could do a heck of a lot more. Despite the sheer and awful mess Alpha Protocol was, the murky nature of character relationships broke up that structure and frequently threw you in for a loop. Paint-by-numbers loyalty missions are less enlightening and revealing than another good chunk of nebulous yarn.
I dunno, I can understand her frustration, but from the way she speaks it seems to me that when she set out to be a writer she wanted to be a novelist but had to "settle" with writing for video games. I mean, maybe she had to go through the grinder to polish her skill and she is ready to move on.
But when someone complains that story takes a back seat to mechanics when talking about Video Games, I have to say "no shit!"
Story and characterization are important in video games, but game play will always be king. Look at the most played video game in the current market, League of Legends, and you'll see a game with awesome mechanics and probably the shittiest and most contrived cast of characters duct-taped together for the sake of the "lore, lolz!".
But when someone complains that story takes a back seat to mechanics when talking about Video Games, I have to say "no shit!"
Story and characterization are important in video games, but game play will always be king. Look at the most played video game in the current market, League of Legends, and you'll see a game with awesome mechanics and probably the shittiest and most contrived cast of characters duct-taped together for the sake of the "lore, lolz!".
Unfortunately even though stories are in many games an important feature, ultimately the mechanics of the game need to be made. And some stories can't fit the games mechanics. So what do you do? Change the story (easier) or change the mechanics (which is longer and costs more)?
99.9% of developers choose option 2
99.9% of developers choose option 2