Blizzard Dev Offers Apology for Response to Sexualization Question

[Azure23]

Ugh not this debate again the poor guy, its the individual design that got the green light by the producer and people go "zomgz bewbs hotness why you no sexualisation equalisez blahah blah"

It seems like nowadays every single time there a good looking women as a heroine that people get overly aggressive and offended.

Bottom line if you don't like the design don't play the game

I am 100% with the dev. The entire gaming industry has taken this whole sexualisation issue to absurd lengths. Frankly, it's embarrassing.

100% this.

Yeah because it's not like the medium has matured at all, I mean why discuss irrelevant gender politics in the magical land of turtle stomping plumbers?

Edit: although yeah that was a bullshit loaded question and the guy responded like a champ refusing to get sucked into an argument, Blizzard has always been about exaggerated proportions and crazy armor, that's their design aesthetic. And those character models are too cartoony and kinda tasteful to really inspire controversy, maybe it was a slow day over the the RPS offices?

Oh yeah one more thing, the gaming JOURNALISTS have taken things to this point because some development teams just won't stop (I'm looking at you Team Ninja!) but goddamnit gaming is growing up and we have to air the dirty laundry and talk out the issues or risk being exposed as the basement dwelling, perverted, misanthropic superhuman badasses that we all know ourselves to be in our heart of hearts.

 

[Dragonbums]

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

Then, may I ask you what your opinion is?

Gosh, I sound like a fucking white knight, but it would be interesting to know.

From an artistic standpoint (being an illustrator myself) it's pure laziness in terms of design.

It went from being something edgy and radical like when it was first introduced decades ago, to being nothing more than a cop out in terms of designing women that are not only unique in abilities, but appearance.

Whether developers want to admit it or not, videogames are as much a visual medium as they are an interactive one. As such, what a character wears and how it's presented will mean A LOT for first impressions.

A user a couple posts above asked what issue did people have with Miranda in relation to the fact that even though her outfit was skimpy as fuck, her personality was sound. Therefore it should be fine.

But that is exactly the problem. It's a crying shame.

If you were to show Miranda from Mass Effect to some random street civilian, the last thing on their mind is going to be how interesting or awesome Miranda's character is. They are going to notice first and foremost her skin tight suit which brings out everything in all the right places. In fact, they are probably just going to see her on the surface as nothing more but one of those sexy catty women.
Her outfit, does not reflect her personality in the slightest (and for someone as high ranking as her in the Cerberus chain, makes her woefully under prepared for any attacks on her person. The only thing she's got going for her is her biotics)
An even better example would be Ashley from Mass Effect.

Ashley is an Alliance soldier through and through. Follows orders, has quick judgement, sticks by regulations - by all accounts her design in Mass Effect 1 reflected her perfectly.

The reason why her redesign was met with so much backlash in ME3? Her design went against everything she is as a character.

Long wavy hair- Not only against Alliance regulations, but also will get you killed in a fire fight pretty fast. Something Ashley would never and did not do in Mass Effect 1

Heavy makeup- not saying women aren't allowed to wear makeup, but let's be serious here. When you are a soldier (and a spectre at that), you don't have the time nor energy to apply 5 layers of powder with full lipstick to boot.

High heeled boots- Why? Just why?

This was in stark contrast to Kaidan (providing he live) who would do the exact same thing Ashley did, yet they designed him in the third game to fit in with what they both went through.
He looks more rugged.
He's more tired, and perhaps a bit despondant. You can SEE that in his design. You don't see that in Ashley's redesign in ME3.

Nothing about Ashley's design in ME3 made any damn sense to either her personality, her current occupation, and the situation around her. It was there to make her look sexy first, everything else second.

And that's the mentality of most of the game industry when it comes to women's design.

Bayonetta did it right. Why?

Because her character is centered around her sexiness. Bayonetta is fully aware that she's hot. She's in control about how hot she wants to be, and she'll make sure everyone else around her knows it. It doesn't come off as blatant sex appeal because they designed her around practically making fun of the practice in the first place.

Now people would rebutt that and claim we want all women to look like Amish. Which is stupid.

I want you to go outside and look at how most women dress on a day to day basis. It sure as hell ain't catsuits and bikini armor 24/7.

When artists design male characters, often times their environment, personality, and current situation are reflected in their design.
However when it comes to most female characters it is simply how to make her look attractive (with only hints at relation to the environment) first and character development second. So yeah, that female character may have the best personality in videogames, but that greatly diminished if she's displayed in a sexy fashion where her breast line takes up half the composition.

It's very possible to make sexy yet reasonable designs for women. Any artist that tells you otherwise are either lying, or need to go back to design school.

 

[Dragonbums]

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

Then, may I ask you what your opinion is?

Gosh, I sound like a fucking white knight, but it would be interesting to know.

My Gf read this article and mentioned she doesn't mind unrealistically sexy female characters. She likes the idea of pretending to be someone unrealistically sexy and kick ass for a while. (because for some reason she doesn't believe me when i tell her she's sexy all the time) Probably like I don't mind being a burly neckless meathead with a chainsaw on his gun and a misspelled last name for a while.

Because it's.... you guessed it.. fantasy!

So stop fucking with my escapism you self entitled twats.

Your Escapsim, is not someone else's pal.

I for one would like to escape from the pressures of society with having to look pretty and keep up with my appearance all the time.
But I guess, only certain people are allowed a slice of the "Escapism" pie.

 

[Azure23]

Ever heard of slutwalks? Women are actually protesting for being able to dress up in skimpy clothing without being considered sex objects or fair game.

Which is just one the most pretentious, smug, stuck-up, asinine bullshit concepts I've ever heard or witnessed.

"Don't consider this fair game!" the hypothetical woman says while wearing a third of a T-shirt and "booty" shorts.

Why would any male perceive any differently? "Op! Can't go for her, she might not want me to, despite her suggestive apparel and public appearance in a social setting. Can't even approach her or I might get Mace'd!"

It's so insultingly stupid that it seems intentionally assholic. As if men are supposed to be clairvoyant mind-readers.

Exhibit A:

Spoiler: Miranda in Black

Miranda from Mass Effect.

Notice the skin tight latex suit and the boob window. Doubles as potential love interest for the player.

She's also a Cerberus officer, skilled fighter and powerful biotic. And guess what, she has a personality as well.

This is all true, but apparently it doesn't matter because boobs.

She also has her own personal demons and neuroses, and she also quests to save the proverbial "helpless princess" - her sister. And, should you take on that mission, she displays quite a bit of emotion and rage toward those who would stop her. She kills pretty much everyone opposing her in an effort to save her sister. How is that not compelling? How is that not empowering?

Also, and this isn't directed at you Chaos, what do people find offensive & wrong with her suit?

Look at everyone in Mass Effect, including the dude behind her. More often than not, a character (human or alien) will be wearing something skin-tight in that game. Male, female, Asari, most characters are wearing some form-fitting outfit.

In Miranda's case, she's a special agent of sorts, clearly accustomed, assigned and expected to physically strenuous missions. Loose clothing does not that easy make and a pragmatic choice it is not. Taking into account this is a science fiction universe set in the future, who's to say that black latex-looking outfit isn't something akin to wetsuits used in SCUBA diving, or hell, the tight-fitting garments used in yoga and aerobic classes?

The idea appears to be the same: warmth/protection against the elements, flexibility and societal functionality. Latex is incredibly restrictive, both for physical movement and airflow. In a latex bodysuit your range of motion is relatively low and you're sweating just standing there, never mind running, diving and engaging in combat all over the place, as Miranda does. Therefore, her outfit is not likely latex. I'm assuming that you didn't mean to imply that what Miranda is wearing is actually latex Chaos, I'm just generally making a rational point toward those who scream "OMG SEXIST!!!" upon viewing the screenshot you provided.

OT: Sexism implies some sort of negative bias or (illogical) discrimination based on one's sex.

We're a sexual species. Sorry. There needs to be two to tango and there is a clear, natural and inherent drive to do so. Women are beings of desire. They have been since probably before writing was even a thought. It's painted throughout history and even the animal kingdom, of which we are a part.

It's been that way for thousands, if not millions, of years. It's not going to change until we no longer need to fuck each other to propagate the species.

This is such a first-world non-issue. Someone creates attractive/sexy female characters in games and some people are out for blood. I mean fuck... PRIORITIES.

Ah, too long, too lazy to erase all the extra. I'll just say what I came to say and leave.

1. We have evolved past the concept of reproduction as a biological imperative (we have that consent thing now)

2. Sometimes girls like to dress attractively FOR THEMSELVES. It's called positive self image.

Oh and one more thing, if you're worried about getting maced from merely approaching a girl. Something is wrong with your approach (maybe don't look so rapey?)

And those slutwalks were great places to pick up women, so I'll hear nothing said against them.

 

[RustyParker]

Ignoring all other game companies, focusing entirely on Blizzard, name three high-profile characters of theirs who dress like pole dancers. I will grant Sylvannas as half-a-point, out of the goodness of my heart.

Um, most female WoW player characters once they pick up some gear? Gear that is all enclosing on males and yet somehow little more than a midriff exposing chainmail bikini on a female? And before you say they're not high profile, who do you see more often? A random NPC or the thousands of chars running about?

K.

Riiiiight. I forgot that most people don't actually play wow and just makes assumptions.

Such sets of armor are actually so rare and rarely sought after that assuming them to be the common-place norm is just silly. Not only that, with the transmog system in place players don't even have to use the same armor piece for appearance and can still get stats.

What you're assuming is that having the option for a flimsily dressed female character makes it sexist. What you fail to understand is that a player character can be customized to the player's liking, and thus such options are a choice that the player can freely make.

I'd like to, as always, point out that male characters in WoW are not excluded from this rule. Some armor does show off parts of the male player's torso and legs. Just like for female characters, these are rarely sought after and rare in general.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Well, no, it's nothing like that.

What don't gamers like? Day one patches but they still buy games and consoles with them. DLC, they still buy DLC. Micro-transactions, still buy hats and skins. Always online, still bought sim-city and diablo 3.

If we avoided everything we hate the only games we could play, would be indies!

Anyway, I love Mass effect 2 and I love Jack but when you first meet her, she is wearing belts over her tits ... WHY? There is fuck all reason for that but she is a woman so she has to be sexualized. Just how many shots of Miranda are of just her ass? Samara has a the deepest V cut top in the whole universe, to show off them blue titties.

There are exceptions to this of course but women in video games are very consistently made fan service of.

 

[Deadcyde]

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

Then, may I ask you what your opinion is?

Gosh, I sound like a fucking white knight, but it would be interesting to know.

My Gf read this article and mentioned she doesn't mind unrealistically sexy female characters. She likes the idea of pretending to be someone unrealistically sexy and kick ass for a while. (because for some reason she doesn't believe me when i tell her she's sexy all the time) Probably like I don't mind being a burly neckless meathead with a chainsaw on his gun and a misspelled last name for a while.

Because it's.... you guessed it.. fantasy!

So stop fucking with my escapism you self entitled twats.

Your Escapsim, is not someone else's pal.

I for one would like to escape from the pressures of society with having to look pretty and keep up with my appearance all the time.
But I guess, only certain people are allowed a slice of the "Escapism" pie.

So you want a game where you wear sweatpants and search the couch for cheetos? I'm hearing your pissed off but no idea what it is you actually want other then to crap all over other peoples fun.

WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT?

 

[RustyParker]

My Gf read this article and mentioned she doesn't mind unrealistically sexy female characters. She likes the idea of pretending to be someone unrealistically sexy and kick ass for a while. (because for some reason she doesn't believe me when i tell her she's sexy all the time) Probably like I don't mind being a burly neckless meathead with a chainsaw on his gun and a misspelled last name for a while.

Because it's.... you guessed it.. fantasy!

So stop fucking with my escapism you self entitled twats.

Your Escapsim, is not someone else's pal.

I for one would like to escape from the pressures of society with having to look pretty and keep up with my appearance all the time.
But I guess, only certain people are allowed a slice of the "Escapism" pie.

Well there's always the option to ignore social pressure and do what you like regardless of what others think.

Look, I am a guy and I like to dress in pink and wear my hair long and down. I completely contradict the norm of things and that can hardly be considered a bad thing. I draw some odd looks, but honestly I could care less.

Not saying it can't be a bother that some people think that I am un-masculine for it, but I know who I am. They don't.

Guess what I am trying to say here, and don't take it the wrong way, is that that the pressure to "look pretty and keep up with my appearance all the time" still leaves you with the choice to do so or not. You aren't being forced into anything, and if anyone tells you otherwise, well then perhaps you should reconsider who you surround yourself with. Not trying to say here that it'd be easy as pie, but it's still an option you have.

Look pretty for yourself anyway, not for anyone else. I don't put on a smile at work for anyone else's benefit; it helps me through and it should be no different with other appearances.

 

[anthony87]

Imagine my (non)surprise to see our very own John Funk pop up in the comments section of that article.

'Twas a good read all the same.

 

[Dragonbums]

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

Then, may I ask you what your opinion is?

Gosh, I sound like a fucking white knight, but it would be interesting to know.

My Gf read this article and mentioned she doesn't mind unrealistically sexy female characters. She likes the idea of pretending to be someone unrealistically sexy and kick ass for a while. (because for some reason she doesn't believe me when i tell her she's sexy all the time) Probably like I don't mind being a burly neckless meathead with a chainsaw on his gun and a misspelled last name for a while.

Because it's.... you guessed it.. fantasy!

So stop fucking with my escapism you self entitled twats.

Your Escapsim, is not someone else's pal.

I for one would like to escape from the pressures of society with having to look pretty and keep up with my appearance all the time.
But I guess, only certain people are allowed a slice of the "Escapism" pie.

So you want a game where you wear sweatpants and search the couch for cheetos? I'm hearing your pissed off but no idea what it is you actually want other then to crap all over other peoples fun.

WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT?

Do be designed as characters first not for sex appeal? Is that honestly so hard?

You act like its some sort of mystery of the universe. It's like any body who make games for an audience outside of the kid audience loses the ability to design female characters that doesn't revolve around boob cuts and skin fluanting. Take a look at the femalle designs of Steven Universe and you'll see what we are talking about.

 

[Deadcyde]

Do be designed as characters first not for sex appeal? Is that honestly so hard?

You act like its some sort of mystery of the universe. It's like any body who make games for an audience outside of the kid audience loses the ability to design female characters that doesn't revolve around boob cuts and skin fluanting. Take a look at the femalle designs of Steven Universe and you'll see what we are talking about.

why? why does it matter? It's fantasy. Not only that you have the option of ignoring it. So why is it important that sex appeal be toned back? Keeping in mind that sex sells for a reason. (it's fun if you didn't know)

EDIT: looking at steven universe now... er.. they're exaggerated. Almost like someone is doing it on purpose to prove a point rather then realistically portray character depth.

 

[SoManyCrimes]

Do be designed as characters first not for sex appeal? Is that honestly so hard?

You act like its some sort of mystery of the universe. It's like any body who make games for an audience outside of the kid audience loses the ability to design female characters that doesn't revolve around boob cuts and skin fluanting. Take a look at the femalle designs of Steven Universe and you'll see what we are talking about.

why? why does it matter? It's fantasy. Not only that you have the option of ignoring it. So why is it important that sex appeal be toned back? Keeping in mind that sex sells for a reason. (it's fun if you didn't know)

EDIT: looking at steven universe now... er.. they're exaggerated. Almost like someone is doing it on purpose to prove a point rather then realistically portray character depth.

I don't normally comment on these sorts of things, but this has baffled me. You asked what Dragonbums wanted, as though it wasn't clear. Dragonbums responded, clearly, and now you've shifted the goalposts.

When you say "stop fucking with my escapism, you self-entitled twats", why isn't a legitimate response "stop hogging all the escapism"? Yes it's fantasy, but perhaps some people would like a different fantasy for a change? Why should they be the ones who have to ignore the stuff they don't like all the time? Why shouldn't the rest of us have to share just a proportion of that, occasionally? Your argument seems to be: "I want things to be the way I want all the time and everyone else can just shove it and shut up, is that really too much to ask?"

To also call those other people the self-entitled ones seems to be taking hypocrisy to pathological levels.

 

[Dragonbums]

Do be designed as characters first not for sex appeal? Is that honestly so hard?

You act like its some sort of mystery of the universe. It's like any body who make games for an audience outside of the kid audience loses the ability to design female characters that doesn't revolve around boob cuts and skin fluanting. Take a look at the femalle designs of Steven Universe and you'll see what we are talking about.

why? why does it matter? It's fantasy. Not only that you have the option of ignoring it. So why is it important that sex appeal be toned back? Keeping in mind that sex sells for a reason. (it's fun if you didn't know)

EDIT: looking at steven universe now... er.. they're exaggerated. Almost like someone is doing it on purpose to prove a point rather then realistically portray character depth.

People aren't playing videogames for sex. "Sex sells" is a cheap marketing ploy that appeals to the lowest denominator of horny losers. You can change her outfi t to something moderate and it will have zero effect on their game sales.

How are the designs of SU proving a point in sacrifice of character depth? Their design reflects their personalities quite well. Ironicallly enough that criticism can be directed to the majority of female designs in videogames.

 

[nenja]

Actually we do show up. All the time.

You want to know what happens half the time when I input my opinion about something that relates to my sex?

I'm either told that that's just my objective opinion and it doesn't have any weight to how most women act, I'm slammed with "fact checking" women like "social games" and other inane studies about what women like to do, or I'm told that I'm just being a feminazi with my panties in a twist and maybe I need to sit down somewhere and stop ruining videogames.

I've spent enough pages arguing back and forth in these arguments to realize that these arguments are completely surface deep.

Women aren't allowed to claim that not all of us like Princesses all that much without being called a subjective opinion. But the dudes here are allowed to make sweeping claims like women only like simulation games because my girlfriend/wife (ie, probably the 4 women most of them have ever really gotten to know in their entire lives) likes to play them all the time.

They don't ACTUALLY want to know what women's opinion are in this matter. They just want to talk about what they think they know what women want in this conversation. Half the time any women inputting anything will just get brushed under the bus or told to chill out.

Then, may I ask you what your opinion is?

Gosh, I sound like a fucking white knight, but it would be interesting to know.

My Gf read this article and mentioned she doesn't mind unrealistically sexy female characters. She likes the idea of pretending to be someone unrealistically sexy and kick ass for a while. (because for some reason she doesn't believe me when i tell her she's sexy all the time) Probably like I don't mind being a burly neckless meathead with a chainsaw on his gun and a misspelled last name for a while.

Because it's.... you guessed it.. fantasy!

So stop fucking with my escapism you self entitled twats.

Your Escapsim, is not someone else's pal.

I for one would like to escape from the pressures of society with having to look pretty and keep up with my appearance all the time.
But I guess, only certain people are allowed a slice of the "Escapism" pie.

Hello, it's Deadcyde's gf here. As it does seem people are interested in hearing the female perspective on this debate I thought I would add my opinion because I said a lot more than that I "like to pretend to be someone unrealistically sexy and kick ass for ahwile".

What I said to him upon reading the backstory for this forum is that it's actually kind of a non-issue for me if they make game characters super sexy... It's not like they are actually in any way realistic. There's no way I am or ever could be a night elf or some scantily clad alien chick from SCII. Dragonbums I do totally get where you are coming from with it being lazy art but at the end of the day they are a business and it's a fact that sex sells. They are definitely not the only gaming company to take advantage of this, nor the only industry. Look at magazines, movies, advertising for all manner of products and services which all use sex to sell (much more frequently than games). So yes while I have felt pressure to 'look' or 'act' a certain way from the media I have realised what the media's view on what's 'sexy' isn't necessarily what an actual guy or girls view on sexy is. Luckily for me my boyfriend think's I'm sexy and his is the only opinion that matters to me, not some gaming company or the mass media.

Getting back to the point though I don't really feel the pressure from the female game characters that I would from stick thin models in magazines or the beautiful actresses. The reason I don't feel that pressure from games? Because they are unrealistic, they are pixels on a screen and while what a character looks like is not a drawing point for me towards a game nor is it something that would discourage me from playing a game. Whether the main character was a scantily clad nymph, a kevlar wearing counter-strike goon or a whimpy kid in his pajamas. I think part of what game creators are trying to do is to create an atmosphere that fits within the realm of their games. While blizzard and other gaming companies may push the bounds of propriety at the end of the day its up to me whether I get bothered by it or just let it go.

To address what deadcyde said again yes I do enjoy playing multiple different characters in various games and it is fun to play a sexy bad-ass chick, but there are so many other things that are more important to me in a game e.g. the thrill of an exciting storyline or the enjoyment that comes from being good at something competitive like SCII or Counter-Strike.

Oh one other thing I thought of... You could quite easily turn around to the guys and say "hey guys, does it bother you when game designers make the male game characters all buff and muscled who are able to wield a giant sword of doom while that may not be how you are in person? Does it make you feel emasculated when they do that?" Now I can't talk for guys and certainly don't want to make any generalisations but I think most of my male gamer friends would say heck no and they too love the feeling of being a bad-ass.

So to close yes I think they are probably being lazy with their game design but no I don't really fee like it is an issue compared to the other mass media and it's not like every game you play has hyper-sexualised females, sure a large proportion are heading that way but there are female characters that are normal, cute, ugly, old crones, children... the list goes on.

*edit - just realised I lied my boyfriends isn't the only opinion that matters to me of course my own does as well of course lol derp!*

 

[Clovus]

I know how to deal with this! have all female game characters from now on all wear burqas exclusively that way no one will be offended by them being underdressed. After all there were complaints of Lara Croft being underdressed on some sites so better safe than sorry.

The important thing is to make sure that all the female characters are handled in the same way depending on what you think about women. Either they are defined by being sexual, or they are defined by being a temptation to men. Try to avoid having your female characters have various interesting traits. That's definitely what RPS was asking for.

Or, maybe you're not understanding the issue at all.

So... like... Jaina Proudmoore, then? Strong, independant, intelligent, had potential romantic connections with Thrall and Arthas at separate times but is not characterized or bound by either, doesn't let it affect her decisions regarding various important happenings around the world, and leads a huge organization of mages to war?

How was that a response to what I just said? Where did I claim that Blizzard has never had good female characters?

And she was designed in 2002.

I'd say blizzard is ahead of the fucking curve on female character development. Anyone throwing questions like this at them in an interview is a fucking dumbass, and anyone supporting such unwarranted lambasting really needs to learn some gaming history, their ignorance is an embarrassment to gaming culture.

Right, so Blizzard had some good female characters, maybe even ahead of the curve. So, now there is no reason to ask them about a roster of characters that doesn't seem to be in line with what is apparently a grand tradition of strong non-sexualized characters.

RPS did not say that Blizzard was sexist. They made no claims about Blizzard never having good female characters. Nathan just pointed out that the roster on this game looked questionable. The reaction to this was "Oh, we made cool-looking characters, it's not about politics, man." As if one had to make a political game in order to have a more diverse looking female cast. The question was perfectly valid and the response was terrible, so Blizzard apologized.

But yeah, I'm not big on Blizzard lore, so apparenty I'm an "embarrassment to gaming culture." Oh noes! If only I'd played every game made by every gaming company in my 30 years as a gamer I could have avoided such a horrible trait!

 

[runic knight]

Do be designed as characters first not for sex appeal? Is that honestly so hard?

You act like its some sort of mystery of the universe. It's like any body who make games for an audience outside of the kid audience loses the ability to design female characters that doesn't revolve around boob cuts and skin fluanting. Take a look at the femalle designs of Steven Universe and you'll see what we are talking about.

why? why does it matter? It's fantasy. Not only that you have the option of ignoring it. So why is it important that sex appeal be toned back? Keeping in mind that sex sells for a reason. (it's fun if you didn't know)

EDIT: looking at steven universe now... er.. they're exaggerated. Almost like someone is doing it on purpose to prove a point rather then realistically portray character depth.

I don't normally comment on these sorts of things, but this has baffled me. You asked what Dragonbums wanted, as though it wasn't clear. Dragonbums responded, clearly, and now you've shifted the goalposts.

When you say "stop fucking with my escapism, you self-entitled twats", why isn't a legitimate response "stop hogging all the escapism"? Yes it's fantasy, but perhaps some people would like a different fantasy for a change? Why should they be the ones who have to ignore the stuff they don't like all the time? Why shouldn't the rest of us have to share just a proportion of that, occasionally? Your argument seems to be: "I want things to be the way I want all the time and everyone else can just shove it and shut up, is that really too much to ask?"

To also call those other people the self-entitled ones seems to be taking hypocrisy to pathological levels.

Why? Well, off the top of my head, simple business understanding. The people who you now call "Self-entitled" are the same audience that have kept the industry making the escapist entertainment not just around, but profitable. They, on average, are the largest demographic that supports the industry and thus are the reason it, you know, exists in the current form in the first place. Even a fool would understand that because of that oft over-looked fact, they would get the lion's share of the developer's attention when it comes to making new games and the character designs within them. While this doesn't guarantee the designs would be great or unique, nor that there would not be pandering because of the demographic share among certain titles and genre, it does explain the frequency as one of simple business and not ideology, which is important to remember in this.

And that is not to say that it all has to be one way, not at all. Merely that the largest companies (like Blizzard) will worry about the biggest audience, especially when that audience has been very reliable in the past. While that does mean you see lots of pandering in general and occasional over the top character design, or even sexualization for the sake of sexualization, it doesn't make that self-entitled to ask why the demographics who historically, and currently don't come close to supporting the companies financially have to be represented equally with those that have. Tell me, is it not a little entitled to expect to find a dress on a rack at the store in a grown man's size and cut, knowing full well that the maker of that product knows it has a very very obvious gender slant too? Because last time I checked the games people complain the most about in regards to sexualization are the same ones with around 80-90% younger adult male audience (you know, the same general demographic usually pandered to in the lowest common denominator way).

Going beyond that though, it is not like those that don't care for sexualization do not have options in gaming. From mainstream to indie, there are hundreds of thousands of games without it. As you say yourelf, some people have different fantasies, and as it just so happens, there is a market for that too. It is just that market is a hell of a lot smaller, and you have to expect the amount of companies and money invested in that smaller market will be less because of that (until demand increases). Right now it comes off as complaining about a product not made to your taste and trying to justify a demand for a larger slice of games that suit your taste as some overall social issue instead. You are using your own dislike of an obviously popular (though quite admittedly over saturated) type of product to claim it is something that it is not, abusing social pressures to try to change it to something you want instead. That is self-entitled to the letter.

Not all games are DOA, and there is a valid reason why so many have sexualized character models anyways. I am sorry if it bothers you, vote with your wallet and support the ones that you like, and hope others share your taste. Don't whine about what other people like as though it is some grand social issue here. It isn't. Not any more then my dislike of Twilight's popularity is a commentary on the sexist nature of the desires and fantasies of adolescent and grown women. Tell me, what is the average current gender balance for people who play MOBA? No, I don't want to hear about what you think it could be if they only had more models that catered to your taste or they didn't sexualize as much or whatever else. I'm taking the viewpoint of a conservative business here and will look at the general data we have available, not idealize about what might be. So, what is the general audience of MOBA, and what are some general trends among that audience? Then, after you give that, tell me why any company with a lick of sense would not market to them in every way possible?


Oh, and to cut off another rebuttal, every MOBA I know of has a huge variety of characters and designs, including everything from fan-services to more reserved. So, you know, people have options as it is, and this story never was an argument about a lack there of. Instead, it was someone thrusting a social complaint of the gaming community at large onto the deeloper and making a soapbox out of an interview, hence why I treat it like the social complaint.

 

[SoManyCrimes]

While there may be some self entitlement on my part in saying stop fucking with what the majority wants because we like it that way it by no means equals your fucking with peoples fun merely on principle, about something you could ultimately forget but for me is a lifestyle. So forgive me if my desire to protect that comes across as "entitlement" asshole.

But what if someone else wants to have part of that lifestyle? Are you really saying that you're not prepared to sacrifice just a tiny piece of it to include other people? Are you saying that the design of the characters is INTEGRAL to that lifestyle, and that changing them would destroy it? Because then I don't think you'd be in the majority any more.

How is it "merely on principle"? People are saying they would enjoy it too if only it were a little different. Obviously if people want to desexualize the characters because they want to censor you, and they have no intention of playing after the changes, then that's bullshit. Ignore those people. But that's not what everyone is saying. They want in on the fun too, it's just that there's currently a barrier there. Are you really not prepared to compromise, even a little?

 

[runic knight]

While there may be some self entitlement on my part in saying stop fucking with what the majority wants because we like it that way it by no means equals your fucking with peoples fun merely on principle, about something you could ultimately forget but for me is a lifestyle. So forgive me if my desire to protect that comes across as "entitlement" asshole.

But what if someone else wants to have part of that lifestyle? Are you really saying that you're not prepared to sacrifice just a tiny piece of it to include other people? Are you saying that the design of the characters is INTEGRAL to that lifestyle, and that changing them would destroy it? Because then I don't think you'd be in the majority any more.

How is it "merely on principle"? People are saying they would enjoy it too if only it were a little different. Obviously if people want to desexualize the characters because they want to censor you, and they have no intention of playing after the changes, then that's bullshit. Ignore those people. But that's not what everyone is saying. They want in on the fun too, it's just that there's currently a barrier there. Are you really not prepared to compromise, even a little?

This is dishonest.
Gaming as a whole, and even individual games have plenty of space for people who aren't a fan of sexualized characters. Hell, look back to Dragon's Crown and the shitstorm raised over the Sorceress and Amazon (though there were other characters for the player to choose, including a less over the top female elf). Many games have some degree of option in that regard. MOBA in particular are known for having huge variety in characters and often releasing more in response to demand. This was never about "a tiny piece" here, it was a guy using an interview as a soapbox for a social cause. What do you consider "a tiny piece" here?

 

[SoManyCrimes]

Why? Well, off the top of my head, simple business understanding.

I think you've misunderstood my position here, and conflated what I said with a lot of other arguments I haven't made. I just didn't understand Deadcyde's argument. I don't have any horse in this particular race, except that I'd like games to be better written, and different approaches to character design would probably help that. But that doesn't apply to all genres.

But I would say that the business understanding argument is flawed, because it only focuses on current customers. I'm a writer and editor, and I occasionally work in games. One reason that games writing was and is so neglected (despite it being so cheap in comparison with other assets) is because when devs looked for feedback, the existing customer base said "we don't care about the writing". So they assumed it wasn't an issue. But that's idiotic. They should have asked people who AREN'T playing the simple question: "Why aren't you playing?"

And it turns out that writing and story DO matter, you just can't easily get data about it. The same might be the issue here. The current player base can't necessarily tell you anything about why the player base isn't bigger. They're already happy. But maybe you could make them just a TINY bit less happy and get a whole lot of new customers?

 

[nenja]

While there may be some self entitlement on my part in saying stop fucking with what the majority wants because we like it that way it by no means equals your fucking with peoples fun merely on principle, about something you could ultimately forget but for me is a lifestyle. So forgive me if my desire to protect that comes across as "entitlement" asshole.

But what if someone else wants to have part of that lifestyle? Are you really saying that you're not prepared to sacrifice just a tiny piece of it to include other people? Are you saying that the design of the characters is INTEGRAL to that lifestyle, and that changing them would destroy it? Because then I don't think you'd be in the majority any more.

How is it "merely on principle"? People are saying they would enjoy it too if only it were a little different. Obviously if people want to desexualize the characters because they want to censor you, and they have no intention of playing after the changes, then that's bullshit. Ignore those people. But that's not what everyone is saying. They want in on the fun too, it's just that there's currently a barrier there. Are you really not prepared to compromise, even a little?

Hi SoManyCrimes, when you say if someone else wants to have that part of their lifestyle and asking whether they would be prepared to 'sacrifice' it or what ever about changing the character design. It's not like it is actually up to us it is up the to game designers. As I said before I could care less one way or the other and I know deadcyde really doesn't care how they look either, in fact the whole point of what I said is quite the opposite. The character design doesn't phase me they can keep it as it is or they can change it but that's not going to affect my enjoyment of a game either way so non-issue. But if it is affecting your enjoyment of a game then start a petition to blizzard or something I don't know but it really is within their artistic licence to create the game how ever they want to.