At first I'd be inclined to agree with you, but if I had to hazard a guess as to what EyeReaper is on about, it would be Tomadachi(tamadachi?) Life. That Sims lite game which didn't have gay sexualities because it wanted to be "family friendly."
Soleil, the girl that likes girls, doesn't know she's getting drugged. Consent is a large part of the problem people have with the scenario. Honestly, it's a pretty ugly situation, brainwashing someone like that. Violating their mind to the core.
Why would you need to point out to anyone that the Nazis were doing bad things? How thick and morally lacking do you think people consuming media are? Audiences shouldn't need to be batted over the head with the moral persuasion of characters, that's awful writing, it should be readily apparent to anyone older than 3 in the actions they do. What, you think any decent human being in the western world needs to be told that date raping is bad?
Yes. Because clearly MarsAtlas of the Escapist forums knew the sexuality of David Bowie's better then David knew it himself. He is after all the definitive authority on the subject.
Well given that sexual orientation isn't based on who you're banging at the moment, a distinction you haven't made, I don't think you're much in a position to make a statement about bisexuality or really any sexual orientation.
I just have this very rare condition called "common decency" that allows me to just simply believe individuals when they tell me what their sexual orientation happens to be. Their word is all I really need on the subject. In fact I strongly believe that a person's word is all that really anyone should have ever needed when it comes to the subject. So even if their orientation changes, regardless of what it changes to, and however you personally believe that process might have occurred - I simply do not give a shit.
When someone tells me their sexual orientation, I respect it. It comes down to a simple matter of respecting the self-ownership of other people.
Something Amyss said:
MarsAtlas doesn't need to know Bowie's sexuality better than Bowie. Just human sexuality better than you. Given the comments you've both made as to human sexuality, that would seem to be the case. David's not the one on here making claims about his sexuality. You are.
David Bowie's own claims regarding his sexuality are a matter of the public record. There are even a multitude of online sources that cover the topic. To the extent of my knowledge I am not making any claims that he himself didn't make at some stage in his life, neither am I claiming that he did anything that he himself did not claim to do at some point.
As much as I don't like it, I understand what they're doing. The west isn't very stable right now when it comes to this type of crap and no matter what they do they'll catch flack for it. I'm just glad I get to play the game. The gameplay elements are still the same and the rest of the interactions are still there. I don't like the idea of anything being censored just to appease anyone, even myself, but I can't fault someone for making the decision to do so. I sure as hell wouldn't, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
I don't think I want to live in a country where we're "stable" for someone falling in love in a manner that involves being drugged without their consent and it being portrayed as a happy and healthy relationship without a bit of irony.
And I'll say it as many times as I have to. Nintendo willingly made this change of their own free will. They do stuff like this all the time. Call it censorship as much as want, it isn't. Unless you're going to claim that self-censorship occurs every time a writer makes a change to their work as a result of criticism, in which case half of the writers in the world self-censor themselves all of the time.
Yeah, whatever. I don't particularly care to have a conversation about censorship. All I know is I prefer to get a product the way it was intended to be. Not edited because people are sensitive. To make the product better? Sure. But not because it'll make people cry the way it is. One of those moments I wish I could read Japanese and just cut out the middle man.
As for the cut content, why should I care? I don't even know exactly what the cut content is. One second I'm told a gay character is drugged and made hetero. The next I'm told she's a playboy that faints in front of cute girls and the player helps her keep her composure. An official translation would help, but apparently that'll never happen. Since I don't know what is being cut, I'm not going to get all uppity about it. Apparently this whole thing started because of a translation on 4chan or tumblr. Not exactly sources I trust.
And yet here you are, replying to me and making posts online about censorship. You are. You are getting the product the way it was intended to be. For the west. It goes beyond people being sensitive, the main aspect behind this is a Japanese stereotype that simply doesn't exist outside of their country. In the west, it simply doesn't work. Plus, I don't really see how taking issue with someone being drugged without their knowledge and it leading to a happy relationship is being "sensitive." "It'll make people cry" this is a textbook case of oversimplifying things and attacking strawmen.
The last Fire Emblem game had the ability to marry cousins, something that they (Tried) to take out in the western translation. I didn't see anyone demanding the true version where you could get the original version's cousin on cousin action. Nor the true version without all the name changes, without Gregor's accent and speaking mannerisms, Nowi's change in characterization, the name of Chrom's army being changed from "Chrom's vigilantes" to simply "The Shepherds", Old Hubbah in the joke matchmaking minigame being made less homophobic, Sumia making pies instead of bento boxes (in a medieval Europe inspired setting). Asking for it to be "the way it was meant to be" is asking for something that was never really a thing in exports. Things are always changed in the official translation. They always have been and I don't see this as a practice stopping anytime soon. Plus these are all official changes made by Nintendo, so I don't know how it can be anymore "the way it was meant to be" than this.
Why should you care? I dunno. If you don't care why are you talking about it? And Regardless of what's going on, a common thing all of the translations had was that it was incredibly stupid and sleazy. Nintendo cut it out because they didn't think it would be fitting for a western audience, and they're right considering we have very different values regarding sexuality, mainly being that we don't believe that young girls flirt with other girls when they're younger and then grow up and move onto "real" relationships with men. They've recently made a statement saying they do stuff like this all the time. Really, this is a non-issue.
So if a studio tells you that they wont let you make something unless you change the script to appeal to audiences that's fine, but if they say you need to change this part of the script in this region to appeal that's bad?
Also while I wont claim to be an expert on this game (as it's not out in my region) from what I understand (which could be wrong) this scene isnt dark and showing something that isn't sunshine and rainbows. It's meant to be quite a jaunty/funny/cute scene. And I think that's the main problem. If this was meant to be dark and showing something horrible then people would be more accepting probably. Ok yes some people would still complain, especially if it wasn't handled tastefully but despite the writer's intentions it is easy to see why some people view this as making light of both date rape and gay conversion therapy (two horrible things which hit close to home for way too many people IRL)
Also no one (except for maybe Nintendo) is forcing them into "self-censoring" their work. They want to sell a product and they think it will do better with out a highly controversial scene in certain markets. I am personally of the opinion that if the devs thought this scene was so important and cared so much they would really try to push it in but they wont. And if they stand by it so much they will be willing to have their names dragged through the mud. People can disagree with that the devs think is good and call them out on it.
I will call out harassment as that's bad regardless of which side does it but if they do something which people don't like then absolutely people will complain. The studio then decides if it want's to continue with what it's doing or change it to sell their product.
From what I remember from the last round of people whining about anyone daring to find a problem with a character who only shows interest in women only being paired romantically with men and being drugged with magic that shows Mr. Protagonistman as a cute girl to top off their relationship, not only was the scene reminiscent of conversion therapy and happy-fun-drug-girl's-drink-time but the writing was just generally shit for this character. After all this is the same one who hits on her mother, right?
Not to mention that the whole "she's not even gay/she's totally bisexual" thing seemed to be supported by little more than a single line where she looks a boy so feminine everyone thought he was a girl and says boys aren't inherently out of play. Considering who this particular line is said to and how her Protagonist-support thing involves her falling in love with your cute, female version, I can definitively say that she can be found on the sexuality spectrum between super-heterosexual and ultra-heterosexual.
Now you mentioned that, your avatar relates to an issue with Japanese geek culture with Schoolgirl lesbianism. Soliel's case is that lately Japan has been relying a lot on that to sell their merchandise. Case in as well Nozomi Tojo from LoveLive.
Soleil, the girl that likes girls, doesn't know she's getting drugged. Consent is a large part of the problem people have with the scenario. Honestly, it's a pretty ugly situation, brainwashing someone like that. Violating their mind to the core.
Why would you need to point out to anyone that the Nazis were doing bad things? How thick and morally lacking do you think people consuming media are? Audiences shouldn't need to be batted over the head with the moral persuasion of characters, that's awful writing, it should be readily apparent to anyone older than 3 in the actions they do. What, you think any decent human being in the western world needs to be told that date raping is bad?
Actually I happen to think people are very thick. I live in a country where people are honestly considering electing Donald Trump. I need to view people that way out of necessity. No, I don't think people need to be told date raping is bad. Here's the problem. This scene doesn't CALL what happens date raping. They make it out to be something sweet, and a lot of people, some in this very thread, are missing the more horrific points of it. This happens all the time when a story has the main character do something horrible and dresses it up as something sweet without anyone calling it out on how horrible it is. Look at Twilight. Countless people read the book and thought the relationships were sweet because the book said they were sweet. Despite the fact that the relationship was extremely dysfunctional and Edward was very much abusive and controlling to the core. No relationship in which someone removes the battery from someone else's car to keep them safe, or breaks into their house to watch them sleep should be considered "romantic." Fifty Shades of Grey is even worse, considering it's supposed to be romantic when the main character IS RAPED! But they don't call it rape.
So yes. I do believe that if Fire Emblem depicted a relationship that began by having someone being drugged without their consent and that relationship was depicted as being happy, many people would never notice the horrific implication of someone being drugged. Because to go back to the earlier point about Nazis, Nazis are bag guys by default. The person doing the drugging is the good guy, the person set up as the hero. It's not always blindingly obvious who's the good person and who's the bad one. And plenty of people just don't look more than skin deep.
That and I just wouldn't enjoy a scene that's supposed to be heartfelt and romantic containing something so disgusting. It kind of contradicts and clashes with the tone of the scene.
That and I just wouldn't enjoy a scene that's supposed to be heartfelt and romantic containing something so disgusting. It kind of contradicts and clashes with the tone of the scene.
Wow I didn't think I'd see Godwin's Law in a Fire Emblem topic.
To those complaining, I do kinda agree with you. At best it's kinda weird to see. But thought experiment, If they changed it to where she knew what the drink did before ingesting it, would it be okay?
Yeah, I know they do this all the time. I still don't like it. All those little changes that don't actually add anything to the product, like a rice ball changed into a sandwich. I despise them. Sue me. It's not like I'm asking them to change it back. They do what they want with their product. If they make a change I don't support then I just won't buy. I don't get to play the game, they don't give a damn, and life goes on for all of us.
I also don't care what the translations say. I need something official, otherwise I can't give an honest opinion. How the hell do I know it's actually sleezy? How do I know it isn't some piss poor translation? Like I said, people keep describing two different events. I don't know which is true, and now I'll never know, so screw it. I can't properly give my opinion on something I don't actually know about.
That and I just wouldn't enjoy a scene that's supposed to be heartfelt and romantic containing something so disgusting. It kind of contradicts and clashes with the tone of the scene.
Yeah, I know they do this all the time. I still don't like it. All those little changes that don't actually add anything to the product, like a rice ball changed into a sandwich. I despise them. Sue me. It's not like I'm asking them to change it back. They do what they want with their product. If they make a change I don't support then I just won't buy. I don't get to play the game, they don't give a damn, and life goes on for all of us.
I also don't care what the translations say. I need something official, otherwise I can't give an honest opinion. How the hell do I know it's actually sleezy? How do I know it isn't some piss poor translation? Like I said, people keep describing two different events. I don't know which is true, and now I'll never know, so screw it. I can't properly give my opinion on something I don't actually know about.
Some people disagree. Many characters who were outright bland in the original Japanese are made iconic from the translation. Kefka from FF 6 is despised in the East because he's just a generic idiot. The western translation made him into a memorable psychopath that the fandom. Though unlike a lot of people you seem to understand this and still stand beside what you say. I respect that. You don't see people getting all of the information before making their decisions that often.
Well the combination of the fact that all the translations seem to land in the general ballpark plus the fact that Nintendo apparently didn't feel the need to correct anyone on the nature of the scene seems to be a good indicator that we've got a good general idea of what happens. Actually the event describe in this article seems to be the universally accepted one.
Wow I didn't think I'd see Godwin's Law in a Fire Emblem topic.
To those complaining, I do kinda agree with you. At best it's kinda weird to see. But thought experiment, If they changed it to where she knew what the drink did before ingesting it, would it be okay?
If she has full control of the situation, knows exactly what the drug does and how long it will last, and willingly takes it, then yeah that would be fine. Not great, but fine. But it also wouldn't have nearly the same affect the original scene had, because it was played for ha-ha laughs before.
The X-factor here is really the issue of choice. The fact that a male character decided she had a problem, and rather than talking to her about it or considering any other options, drugged her without her knowledge in order to "fix" a problem that she didn't ask to be fixed. When you add choice and self-determination back into the mix, it does indeed become less noxious.
Considering the issues some people have with consent, Yes, lots of people don't think date rape is bad, or at least don't think what they did was date rape.
Yeah, I know they do this all the time. I still don't like it. All those little changes that don't actually add anything to the product, like a rice ball changed into a sandwich. I despise them. Sue me. It's not like I'm asking them to change it back. They do what they want with their product. If they make a change I don't support then I just won't buy. I don't get to play the game, they don't give a damn, and life goes on for all of us.
I also don't care what the translations say. I need something official, otherwise I can't give an honest opinion. How the hell do I know it's actually sleezy? How do I know it isn't some piss poor translation? Like I said, people keep describing two different events. I don't know which is true, and now I'll never know, so screw it. I can't properly give my opinion on something I don't actually know about.
Some people disagree. Many characters who were outright bland in the original Japanese are made iconic from the translation. Kefka from FF 6 is despised in the East because he's just a generic idiot. The western translation made him into a memorable psychopath that the fandom. Though unlike a lot of people you seem to understand this and still stand beside what you say. I respect that. You don't see people getting all of the information before making their decisions that often.
Well the combination of the fact that all the translations seem to land in the general ballpark plus the fact that Nintendo apparently didn't feel the need to correct anyone on the nature of the scene seems to be a good indicator that we've got a good general idea of what happens. Actually the event describe in this article seems to be the universally accepted one.
True, Nintendo has yet to, and will probably never, correct anyone, but it wouldn't be the first time anyone has decided to comply rather than put up a fight. I don't blame them for that either. If they tried to explain it there's a possibility that it'd just be turned on them and make things worse. As far as these things are concerned, it's just easier to remove whatever's pissing people off and walk away. And what's universally accepted isn't always correct. Especially on the internet. Heck, these guys disagree completely.
Well, none of this affects me anyway. With or without the event I'll be getting the game. Even if it bothers me it wont keep me from enjoying it. A Happy ending for everyone involved, even if they don't know it yet.
That and I just wouldn't enjoy a scene that's supposed to be heartfelt and romantic containing something so disgusting. It kind of contradicts and clashes with the tone of the scene.
No, I'm saying everyone is allowed to do bad writing. Maybe they wanted to write it and that's what we got. I mean, bad writing is very subjective thing.
So even if we assume that the case was that the developers of the game found the scene bad and wanted to alter it. Why wasn't it changed to the japanese version as well?
Wow I didn't think I'd see Godwin's Law in a Fire Emblem topic.
To those complaining, I do kinda agree with you. At best it's kinda weird to see. But thought experiment, If they changed it to where she knew what the drink did before ingesting it, would it be okay?
I think it would be "okay" in the sense that it wouldn't be skin-crawlingly sleazy anymore. It still wouldn't work as a localization - the entire rest of the character is a very japanese erotic fiction stereotype, the sexually confused young girl with just enough same-sex urges to titillate the (presumed straight, male, lesbian-fantasizing) audience, but still heterosexually available; i.e. gayness is used to represent innocence, youth and inexperience. Even if she willingly imbibes the potion, her whole arc doesn't translate well, and is easily mistaken for a lesbian switching sides because the protagonist found a "fix" for her.
Also, it wouldn't make the storyline good. That writing is beyond saving. "Wanna touch my chest now?," ew, like something out of a cheap eroge.
She's a frustrating character either way, since her whole stereotype has little to do with gay representation in the first place. Much like in most japanese media, you'll rarely see fleshed-out gay characters with living relationships. Instead, you get stock "questioning" girls and interchangeable seme/uke couples - porn roles, basically.
That and I just wouldn't enjoy a scene that's supposed to be heartfelt and romantic containing something so disgusting. It kind of contradicts and clashes with the tone of the scene.
No, I'm saying everyone is allowed to do bad writing. Maybe they wanted to write it and that's what we got. I mean, bad writing is very subjective thing.
So even if we assume that the case was that the developers of the game found the scene bad and wanted to alter it. Why wasn't it changed to the japanese version as well?
Notice the key word there. Maybe. Maybe they wanted to change it for the western audience because they thought they would be better that way. They most certainly don't seem that upset when they announced that this was essentially business as usual. And yes, it is subjective, and apparently in Nintendo's subjective opinion they decided it would be for the best if it was changed. I have to say they don't seem particularly torn up by this. People keep making arguments that this is what they wanted when I'm not really seeing any evidence that they were particularly attached to this scene.
Because audiences are different. What is good for one audience isn't necessarily good for another audience. I happily use foul swear words around some crowds that I use far less around other ones. This entire scene is based on a stereotype that doesn't even exist outside of Japan. It just wouldn't even work in the west. Nintendo seems to understand this.
Soleil, the girl that likes girls, doesn't know she's getting drugged. Consent is a large part of the problem people have with the scenario. Honestly, it's a pretty ugly situation, brainwashing someone like that. Violating their mind to the core.
Well, it's your character that spikes the drink of your own comrade, Soleil. A comrade that doesn't know it's happening.
You're playing the badguy in this. Games that feature Nazis don't usually make you play as them, you're generally shooting them.
There's still a dangerous mentality that LGBT can be "cured" and frankly I'd not like those people getting any more fuel.
Paradoxrifts said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Soleil, the girl that likes girls, doesn't know she's getting drugged. Consent is a large part of the problem people have with the scenario. Honestly, it's a pretty ugly situation, brainwashing someone like that. Violating their mind to the core.
There you go directly implying that the magical macguffin that her drink was spiked with did anything more then what the game tells us it did. All we are told that the magical powder does is, "The people who take this powder, amazingly, see people outside of themselves as the opposite gender."
That's it. That is all the game tells us it does.Nothing else.
If you believe that the drug is doing anything other then what is stated in the game then I'm sorry to inform you that whatever the fuck that is it is only happening in your head according to all available evidence. Your reaction to this says a great deal more about you and what sort of conclusions you immediately reach for when presented with limited evidence in these matters then it does about anything else.
Here's a link [http://nichegamer.com/2015/07/the-story-behind-fire-emblem-fates-completely-falsified-gay-conversion/] to the original translation. Unfortunately, I do not know Japanese. I couldn't tell you just how accurate the Japanese translation is, but I have no reason to disbelieve the accuracy of their translation. I encourage everyone to read the translation for themselves and reach their own opinion.
Rebel_Raven said:
It's not a trip of self discovery. No long, winding road to find happiness likened to your vision of Bowie's life. She's been forced by someone else to see the world differently. It'd be like if you were into gender A, and someone drugs you to see Gender 1 as gender A, you fall in love with someone that seems gender A, but is really Gender 1.
The story has her converted from liking gender A to gender 1 like it's some disease which I doubt anyone appreciates. I doubt you'd appreciate someone violating your brain to change you that way.
*Swallows his daily lithium tablets* No. Of course not, I wouldn't know anything about changing my brain chemistry with medicine.
If I just happened to fall into the gay one day and immediately thereafter discovered a reciprocal romantic and sexual attraction to another man I would go with it. Love like that is love, wherever you happen to uncover it. If that guy was willing to wear a dress and talk like a woman because he believed that it might ease the transition for me, that'd be kinda sweet. So that's my hypothetical answer to your hypothetical question. It doesn't matter. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o]
I also just love how you willing you are to throw bisexual representation right under the bus, as if when a fictional character mentions that they like cute members of the same sex it automatically discounts any and all possibility of them later developing an attraction to a member of the opposite sex. While I bet you would have absolutely no qualms at all about praising a formerly heterosexual character discovering their homosexuality, because nothing is quite so hypocritical as saying that there should be one set of rules for me and a more restrictive set of rules for everyone else.
So apart from the initial gender bending magical trickery, which in upon itself is a ridiculously common reoccurring theme in Japanese popular media, at no point is she ever coerced into doing anything she doesn't herself make a choice to go along with. It is also never stated that she ever loses her interest in other women. It is in fact strongly implied by how she warns Kamui off from pursuing homosexual liaisons of his own that she herself retains an attraction to 'cute girls'. All that is stated to have occured is that she has developed a romantic and sexual attraction to Kamui that is strong enough that she chooses to disregard other options and accept his marriage proposal.
It is also never explored whether or not Kamui ever stops talking in falsetto.
I don't believe the drug is doing anything more than what it says. But if someone slips you a pill, and you go unconscious, and then someone takes advantage of that by, say, stealing a kidney, or sexual actions, the pill isn't doing any more than advertised, either.
*Reads the link.* Yep, Soleil got drugged without her consent, and it drastically altered her world view. Isn't that obvious? Soleil doesn't get what's going on and Kamui has to explain it.
Soleil: Wait, who are you? (blushes)
Kamui: It?s me. Kamui.
Soleil: Whaaaaaaaa -! But you ? the person before my eyes is a girl!
Kamui: It looks like this was a huge success.
Soleil: Success? I totally don?t get it.
Kamui: Right now, you see me as a girl, don?t you?
Soleil: Completely.
Kamui: Well, I got some magical powder. Sorry, but earlier, I put some of it in your drink. The people who take this powder, amazingly, see people outside of themselves as the opposite gender.
Soleil: Whaat? So because of that, I see Kamui-san as a girl?
Kamui: That?s right. After we talked, I thought a lot about how to resolve your troubles. Then I came to this conclusion. You see me as a girl, so use me to overcome the problem. I?ll move closer to you now. Be careful not to pass out and build up your tolerance.
You don't get to use your own medication as an excuse because you consent to taking them. You're taking them of your own free will, and taking the risks yourself. That's the key difference, and what basically voids that argument.
I'm not throwing bisexuality out the window. I'm saying that it's not cool if she ends up falling in love with someone because of the powder bending her mind which is basically what happens if she ends up with Kamui. A powder that she never okayed taking to begin with.
It doesn't make things much better when she falls in love with Kamui while under the effects of a drug she never knew she was taking. It's some serious brainwashing.
Going along with it later doesn't change how skeevy the situation started. A happy ending doesn't improve the situation either. She still got drugged without her knowledge, or consent, and there's someone (The same someone that drugged her) that takes advantage of her altered state of mind.
What, it's suddenly okay to make people take drugs to make them think the way you want them to if it all works out in the end/to the pesron forcing the drugs on a person's benefit??
It doesn't matter who discovers what under these circumstances. It's not okay to do these sorts of things to them.
You know what would really fix a lot of this situation?
Kamui: Hey, Soleil, I know of a powder that will make all men look like women. I think it might help with your troubles being around other women that you like. Here's the bottle of the powder, and the warnings! Do you want to try it?
Soleil: *Reads the bottle's warnings, and understands them.* Okay! Lets try this!
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