Dark Souls isn't an RPG
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I wouldn't say that the two are mutually exclusive. You can have a survival horror which is also an RPG. See System Shock 2.
As for Dark Souls, it does have elements of both. The fact that you're building your character up from nothing the way you wish, coupled with the emphasis on interchangeable and improvable equipment makes it an RPG while the atmosphere of complete desolation and utter loneliness coupled with the fact that the game makes you moves slow and almost feel afraid of what's ahead of you, knowing that death is inevitable taps into survival horror.
It's a unique game alright.
As for Dark Souls, it does have elements of both. The fact that you're building your character up from nothing the way you wish, coupled with the emphasis on interchangeable and improvable equipment makes it an RPG while the atmosphere of complete desolation and utter loneliness coupled with the fact that the game makes you moves slow and almost feel afraid of what's ahead of you, knowing that death is inevitable taps into survival horror.
It's a unique game alright.
Video game genres are ill-defined and "RPG" is the most ill-defined of them all.
Discussions about video game genres are circuitous and highly subjective, and discussions about what defines an RPG are the most circuitous and subjective of all.
Discussions about video game genres are circuitous and highly subjective, and discussions about what defines an RPG are the most circuitous and subjective of all.
Anything with a level-up system gets called an RPG. They say it about Diablo for frig's sake. For me it can't be called roleplaying until you have decisions to make beyond which special attack to unleash next. Most games that claim RPG status aren't.
I hear good things about Dark Souls. Unfortunately I did not hear that the PC port is crap. I bought it and it won't work correctly. DSFix has so far not helped. I look forward to actually playing the damn thing someday.
I hear good things about Dark Souls. Unfortunately I did not hear that the PC port is crap. I bought it and it won't work correctly. DSFix has so far not helped. I look forward to actually playing the damn thing someday.
I'm not saying there's no role-playing in DS, I'm saying it's not the focus of the game, which is dungeon crawling. I spent more time role-playing in Mass Effect than I did shooting. You spent more time dungeon crawling than role-playing in DS.Church185 said:
It may not have been your focus, but I role-played quite a bit while I was playing DS. Your definition of RPG is vague to the point of being useless. Considering you got your definition from Wikipedia, let's see how they define Dark Souls [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Souls].Phoenixmgs said:
Would you look at that, even they think that Dark Souls is an RPG.
You role-played quite a bit, but you dungeon crawled quite a bit more than that. Uncharted is not a platformer even though it has platforming because the platforming is not the focus of the game. Mirror's Edge is not a shooter because it has shooting, it's a platformer because that's the focus of the game. The focus of Dark Souls is dungeon crawling. The genre a game falls into is what the game's primary focus is.Church185 said:
The problem is that video games are not categorized by the actual definition of an RPG. Almost all JRPGs wouldn't be RPGs under the definition. JRPGs have more in common with point and click adventure games than RPGs.
RPG, Role Playing Game. By pure definition all games are an RPG as soon as you are playing the role of a character that is not you. Leveling up, stat/item choice or progression have nothing to do with determining weather a game is an RPG or not.
For the purpose of genre you have to look to what the game emphasizes as its main game-play element. In the case of dark souls role playing is not at the core of the game, I would call it a strategic-combat, fantasy game, not a RPG.
For the purpose of genre you have to look to what the game emphasizes as its main game-play element. In the case of dark souls role playing is not at the core of the game, I would call it a strategic-combat, fantasy game, not a RPG.
Technically, the original definition of RPG lies a far bit closer to rules heavy miniature games than modern day White Wolf-inspired storytelling. The problem is that RPG encompasses everything from "almost-but-not-quite-a-miniature-conflict-game" like D&D which encourages the use of grid-based combat, miniatures and with a large focus on stats and character building to "Kind-of-like-theater-but-without-a-stage" New World of Darkness that encourages emphasis on heavy character portrayal and descriptive explanations over rules.Spearmaster said:
Neither is wrong. Dark Souls is an RPG by virtue of being a game in which you level your character, create a skill build and use your build to maximum effect in combat-focused scenarios. If Dark Souls isn't an RPG, then we might as well claim that first edition AD&D wasn't either, because of the focus on dungeon crawling, physical conflict and the relatively minimal aspect of character portrayal.
As a long time, hardcore roleplayer it bothers me that so few know or understand the historical roots of RPGs. Especially when they try to dismiss games that are essentially electronic versions of 1st edition AD&D (or Sword & Sorcery) as "not RPGs". In many ways, Dark Souls is truer to the original definition of RPG than many modern RPGs are.
Amalur at least tries, you got your dialog choices and a persuasion skill. Dogma's not an RPG. Games like Final Fantasy don't even try. Tidus, Lightning, Cloud, etc. all say and do exactly what they are scripted to do outside of combat, you have no say over what your FF characters say and do outside of combat. If you take the combat out of a FF game, all you got is a point and click adventure game.Church185 said:
Tito pretty much echos my statements about what an RPG is in this Escapist Podcast [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/5431-035-What-Defines-An-RPG-More-Mass-Effect] and they start talking about what defines an RPG at just before the 8 minute mark, he even says Final Fantasy is not an RPG.
But that game is more about the combat, so I guess it is out of the RPG club. /sarcasmPhoenixmgs said:
Somebody forgot that Final Fantasy didn't start with 7. Hell in the first one there weren't set protagonists, you just picked 4 classes and went on your merry way.
It's hard to argue from authority [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority] when your authority gave Dragon Age 2 a 5/5. Looks like he was wrong on the RPG definition as well.
EDIT: Actually, let us look at what he has to say [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/8701-Dragon-Age-II-Review.2] about Dragon Age 2, shall we? According to him, it is the "pinnacle of role-playing games". Let that sink in for a moment. A game very similarly focused on combat (Amalur, Dragon's Dogma) is being called an RPG by the very person saying they shouldn't be considered RPGs. Either give up this fight (which is pointless) or find better people to quote.
I played FF6 and it's the same as well. I can't play most of the FF games because they have random battles and I hate random battles.Church185 said:
You can't be wrong about an opinion.
Games like Dogma and FF are listed as RPGs because that's just how everyone does it really for no reason. I'd consider Amalur a hack and slash more than an RPG because there's more combat than anything but the game does try as you have choices for a lot of the quests. Far Cry 3 is as much an RPG as Dogma, yet one's a shooter and one's an RPG.
FF, FF2, FF3, FF5, FF11, and FF14 would all fall under your definition of RPG.Phoenixmgs said:
Then why are you here? This thread only exists to tell people they are wrong because they think of Dark Souls as an RPG.
In my opinion it is and opinions can't be wrong.
The key phrase here is "everyone does it". Considering the majority of people think of games like Dark Souls as an RPG, it would appear that the definition has changed. That can happen you know, gay used to mean happy.
But are you roleplaying?
Whether or not you made a difference has literally nothing to do with whether you did or did not roleplay. I'm not sure how to make this post longer, but seriously, roleplay is about self-insertion, not absolute freedom and absolute power.
Whether or not you made a difference has literally nothing to do with whether you did or did not roleplay. I'm not sure how to make this post longer, but seriously, roleplay is about self-insertion, not absolute freedom and absolute power.
It's very true, Dark Souls isn't an RPG, it's an Action-RPG, and barely one at that, being more of a straight action game. Survival Horror/Brawler is perhaps the most apt label one could give it, not that there is anything wrong with that.Mr Dizazta said:
An RPG by it's nature is about indirect control with the numbers controlling the outcome of events above and beyond anything. The abilities of the character your playing, and it's role, are what determines the outcome. In Dark Souls there are stats, but they tend to have fairly minimal impact on the game, and as people have pointed out, it's quite possible for someone with great reflexes and skill/memory to beat the entire game at level 1, it being the direct abilities of the player that have the greatest impact on the outcome of the game. Likewise there are parts of the game where your not going to be able to just power through, no matter what your stats are, you pretty much have to play "as intended" for a lot of it, you can't for example waltz up to some 60' tall gigantic demon at the endgame and watch his attacks feebly bounce off your armor because your stats are so high, your still more or less required to get out of the way of his attacks, deal with the knockback, etc.. which largely comes down to you the player.... there is nothing inherently wrong with that mind you, it's just really now how things are supposed to work in an RPG, especially when you look at the opposite side of the equasion where a top tier character with a bad player (say taking a friend's veteran out for a walk when you've never played before) can be murdered horribly even fairly close to the beginning of the game fighting "low level" monsters.
RPG - 'Role Playing Game'
am i playing a character not 'me'? yes
is there a narrative, however loosely we define this term? yes
does this character have a specific role in the narrative? yes
is choice involved in anyway that effects the 'land'/narrative this character inhabits? yes
is there combat? yes
items? yes
means of 'leveling up'? yes
respawning? yes
other characters that interact with said PC that provide information about the world, however slim and loosely we define this? yes
...
what part of Dark Souls isn't an RPG? the fact that its depressing as all hell, abusive, and tells you constantly just by existing 'YOU WILL DIE'?
Survival Horror tries to 'scare' you and leaves you with a constant feel of you will NEVER be powerful, NEVER be able to topple the monsters, and no matter what, you are dead at the end of this game... if i wanted to compare Dark Souls and say, Outlast, Siren, Slender, etc. umm... i'm seeing a major 'difference' in genres... where there, in the survival horror side of the field they're pithy humans that will never really learn anything, only the 'player' does and that's after excessive death and trying, but where in an SH game the actual PC means very little, while in Dark Souls the 'Chosen Undead' has a title that makes them somewhat important, and what they do does something, however depressing, to the entire world...
but this is all the same as calling a kettle a pot and that its black, since Survival Horror, like pretty much ALL GAME GENRES fall under RPG, as RPG is what you do in every game, take over the role of someone and do something... so to call any game really not an RPG is kinda silly... but for 'trending' ways of thinking, no i still feel Dark Souls, like is much better predecessor still falls well under the 'RPG' banner's more common use, its just that its dark and depressing so people don't want to associate it with the 'fluff' and 'happy' of things like Final Fantasy *pfft* just because something's an RPG doesn't mean there's a 'happy' ending...
am i playing a character not 'me'? yes
is there a narrative, however loosely we define this term? yes
does this character have a specific role in the narrative? yes
is choice involved in anyway that effects the 'land'/narrative this character inhabits? yes
is there combat? yes
items? yes
means of 'leveling up'? yes
respawning? yes
other characters that interact with said PC that provide information about the world, however slim and loosely we define this? yes
...
what part of Dark Souls isn't an RPG? the fact that its depressing as all hell, abusive, and tells you constantly just by existing 'YOU WILL DIE'?
Survival Horror tries to 'scare' you and leaves you with a constant feel of you will NEVER be powerful, NEVER be able to topple the monsters, and no matter what, you are dead at the end of this game... if i wanted to compare Dark Souls and say, Outlast, Siren, Slender, etc. umm... i'm seeing a major 'difference' in genres... where there, in the survival horror side of the field they're pithy humans that will never really learn anything, only the 'player' does and that's after excessive death and trying, but where in an SH game the actual PC means very little, while in Dark Souls the 'Chosen Undead' has a title that makes them somewhat important, and what they do does something, however depressing, to the entire world...
but this is all the same as calling a kettle a pot and that its black, since Survival Horror, like pretty much ALL GAME GENRES fall under RPG, as RPG is what you do in every game, take over the role of someone and do something... so to call any game really not an RPG is kinda silly... but for 'trending' ways of thinking, no i still feel Dark Souls, like is much better predecessor still falls well under the 'RPG' banner's more common use, its just that its dark and depressing so people don't want to associate it with the 'fluff' and 'happy' of things like Final Fantasy *pfft* just because something's an RPG doesn't mean there's a 'happy' ending...
Yeah, I tend to find this line of logic amusing "Oh yeah? But like OPINION, man - there that's the I-win-button in the discussion, right? Right?"Church185 said:
That's also separate from the fact that opinions can be wrong, when reality is against them. In somebody's opinion, 1+1 may equal "3" or "7" or "table" or even "purple" but trying to claim that you are, in fact, owed twice the amount, or that you should be able to buy two pizzas in exchange for one colour somehow doesn't pan out really well.
I find this really funny, for I bear a messageIkasury said:
White Wolf said:
I'd say Dark Souls is less survival horror, and more a gothic puzzle. Your resources are all there; you just need to put them together in a way that makes sense. The only thing that holds this back from being completely true is combat...but then again you can just as easily lump Dark Souls together with Shadow of the Colossus.
...ah, well, perhaps "adventure" game is the better fit...but one where treasure chests eat me...huh...thank god there's none of that in Legend of Zelda...
...ah, well, perhaps "adventure" game is the better fit...but one where treasure chests eat me...huh...thank god there's none of that in Legend of Zelda...