Demigod Piracy Running High
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
I don't think people have a problem with writing in a registration code when installing a game. I think they do have a problem with:
- Having the disc in the drive to play.
- Getting malware installed on their computers that can hurt your system integrity.
A few months back Blizzard released a patch for wc3 so you don't need to have the cd in the drive to boot. I have no more complaints.
If the there's a solid demo or limited trial for a game, and you enjoyed it then there's no excuse left not to pay money for it.
- Having the disc in the drive to play.
- Getting malware installed on their computers that can hurt your system integrity.
A few months back Blizzard released a patch for wc3 so you don't need to have the cd in the drive to boot. I have no more complaints.
If the there's a solid demo or limited trial for a game, and you enjoyed it then there's no excuse left not to pay money for it.
Agreed, Stardock doesn't deserve this in any way, shape, or form.CantFaketheFunk said:
When I saw that post, I felt such rage... I hope I am not over stepping here, but would it be reasonable to suggest that forum user be permanently IP banned?Malygris said:
At this point, the only leg piracy has to stand on occasionally is "demo". I wonder if that last leg could be knocked out if there was a better system for having a limited use review copy of a game. That said though, I want to be very clear I do not "pirate" a game that does not have a demo, I just don't buy it (or wait for a price so low it basicly equals the cost of a small bag of junk food).
And all those who did pirate Stardock's games? I hope you downloaded some nasty virii with it, zombie sheep lead to the slaughter by some cracker hacker.
I thought there were some good points brought up about how DRM is still not the answer and this is partly to blame because of publicity.
I don't think anybody ever called for the removal of CDkeys, aren't those enough to throw the warezed copies out? Pirates should know that they can't play a warezed copy online (if this doesn't even have that kind of check... well, good job throwing out the only thing that actually WORKS) so I wonder why they even went online. If they knew they couldn't but still clobbered the server like that... DDoS? Should subside soon, people will not keep trying to connect to a server if it gets nothing done.
And imagine what'll happen once the game sells enough to have 100k legitimate users online at once, what then? Tell them "sorry, our game sold too well"?
Looking at Amazon I can guess what a major source of piracy for the game could be: Its European release is on 7. May. That's almost a month away. Piracy provides the game NOW. DRM is not the only thing that elevates the convenience of warez over the real product, long delays on international releases will also affect it.
And imagine what'll happen once the game sells enough to have 100k legitimate users online at once, what then? Tell them "sorry, our game sold too well"?
Looking at Amazon I can guess what a major source of piracy for the game could be: Its European release is on 7. May. That's almost a month away. Piracy provides the game NOW. DRM is not the only thing that elevates the convenience of warez over the real product, long delays on international releases will also affect it.
For a MP game that happens anyway, for an SP game it's crackable. Checking whether an online server gives you a thumbs up isn't terribly different from checking whether the right CD is in the drive, just replace the whole code with a "return true" and the protection is useless. Server connections only work when they actually add something to the game and thus removing them would cripple it (e.g. running an MMORPG offline kinda defeats the whole point), if all they do is set a flag that you're allowed to run the code and data on your harddrive they can be stripped out.cainx10a said:
The WoG guy pointed out that there's no difference in the piracy rate for DRM'd software and unprotected software, hence DRM is stupid. It does nothing.scotth266 said:
The whole DRM talk is usually an excuse for claiming "we did nothing wrong, our sales are being sabotaged" and it will be brought out every time a game fails to sell. If people don't pirate the game but don't buy it either the company will still claim DRM is good. I'm certainly not going to buy it, it sounds like a fun little minigame but not worthy of a full 50€ release. Screaming about how it's DRM-free won't change that, the thing I want more than DRM-free games is games that are fun and worth the money. I won't buy games that fail to sell themselves to me just to make a statement about DRM.
At long last, clear and unambiguous evidence for my long-standing belief that people don't pirate games "in protest of DRM". They do it because they can't be bothered to actually pay for something that people have put a lot of time and money into developing. Short version: pirates are dicks.
Agreed 100%.Malygris said:
What actually pisses me off more than the pirating of it is the early release date from Gamestop. The company possibly could have better dealt with the inevitable pirates ANYWAY if they had the time to recover after the grind. They would be working faster, more thoroughly, and I doubt it would have been as much of an issue. I work at Gamestop, sometimes shamed to admit almost two and a half years now. Their business ethics always seem to border on greedy and money-grubbing, and they rarely think of anythink but their wallets. It's things like this that make me seriously consider why I still work there.
The Impulse digital purchase is cheaper by $10 than a hard copy, and requires less work to get. Many people these days would prefer to spend an hour or two downloading than the 20-30 minutes it takes to head to the store and buy something, and the price makes the deal that much sweeter. Gamestop's logic would be to release the game a bit early, thus making them the one and only source for the game, and greatly increasing their sales.
Only it backfired. Of course, most people still wouldn't want to hit the store. In an economic situation such as the US', maybe people would want the digital download anyway as it saves a bit of cash. But now, the game is out, they can see if it's really worth that money they were going to spend in the first place! Quick, someone go see if it's been tossed up on the net yet!
So yes to several points so far in the thread. Yes, the piracy is more likely just a rush to see if the game is really worth the money soon to be spent. And yes, it most likely IS Gamestop's fault. However, Stardock is at fault as well for not at least taking simple precautions. Gamestop started the problem, and Stardock just allowed it to happen.
As for the DRM issues, I honestly don't see a problem with it, if it's done well. Games where you can only activate a limited number of times, not cool, that just treats the consumer like they're stealing the game anyway. They haven't purchased it, they're "renting" it, I guess. Games that require you to activate through a created account before downloading a small unlocking patch or whatever, that's more acceptable. I can understand that. CD-Keys obviously don't work as well as companies wished. No protection at all is murder, as seen here. DRM is a good idea in theory, it just needs to be implemented the right way.
The Impulse engine for Demigod is an excellent way to do it. It's safe and secure, as only the person who bought it has access to it, and it's easy to track. If the account is rapidly downloading the game, or multiple copies at the same time, then you know what account is being abused.
[/rant]
Short answer? Yes. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
The Impulse digital purchase is cheaper by $10 than a hard copy, and requires less work to get. Many people these days would prefer to spend an hour or two downloading than the 20-30 minutes it takes to head to the store and buy something, and the price makes the deal that much sweeter. Gamestop's logic would be to release the game a bit early, thus making them the one and only source for the game, and greatly increasing their sales.
Only it backfired. Of course, most people still wouldn't want to hit the store. In an economic situation such as the US', maybe people would want the digital download anyway as it saves a bit of cash. But now, the game is out, they can see if it's really worth that money they were going to spend in the first place! Quick, someone go see if it's been tossed up on the net yet!
So yes to several points so far in the thread. Yes, the piracy is more likely just a rush to see if the game is really worth the money soon to be spent. And yes, it most likely IS Gamestop's fault. However, Stardock is at fault as well for not at least taking simple precautions. Gamestop started the problem, and Stardock just allowed it to happen.
As for the DRM issues, I honestly don't see a problem with it, if it's done well. Games where you can only activate a limited number of times, not cool, that just treats the consumer like they're stealing the game anyway. They haven't purchased it, they're "renting" it, I guess. Games that require you to activate through a created account before downloading a small unlocking patch or whatever, that's more acceptable. I can understand that. CD-Keys obviously don't work as well as companies wished. No protection at all is murder, as seen here. DRM is a good idea in theory, it just needs to be implemented the right way.
The Impulse engine for Demigod is an excellent way to do it. It's safe and secure, as only the person who bought it has access to it, and it's easy to track. If the account is rapidly downloading the game, or multiple copies at the same time, then you know what account is being abused.
[/rant]
I have the game and honestly, for what I was expecting, got a BUNCH more than I expected. Yes there is no real campaign, but honestly, with the gameplay and how it works, I don't know how well that would work out.
Myself, and 2 other friends like this game TONS more then DoTa and that's the whole reason we play it. It's like DoTa, but allows a lot more in depth.
And considering last night we couldn't even get online to play with each other pissed us the hell off. Even more so knowing that it's people who stole the game, if you seem interested in it, and they don't have a demo, suck it up and decide to buy it or not.
Don't fuck the rest of us who DID pay out of being able to get on since you were too selfish to muster up the balls to buy it yourself.
/rant
Myself, and 2 other friends like this game TONS more then DoTa and that's the whole reason we play it. It's like DoTa, but allows a lot more in depth.
And considering last night we couldn't even get online to play with each other pissed us the hell off. Even more so knowing that it's people who stole the game, if you seem interested in it, and they don't have a demo, suck it up and decide to buy it or not.
Don't fuck the rest of us who DID pay out of being able to get on since you were too selfish to muster up the balls to buy it yourself.
/rant
There are no CD Keys for this game? This old method is still the best (IMO) for keeping pirates in check. Offer online multiplayer and possible additional content by way of the CD Key to discourage pirating of the game.
Stardock, though its intentions are noble, shot themselves at the foot with this one. Reverse Psychology doesn't work on pirates.
Let's get this point straight: People don't like invasive DRM in their games - SecuROM and Install Limits come to mind, and other examples like them and only them. Going out of your way to forget copy-protection is a bad move.
Stardock, though its intentions are noble, shot themselves at the foot with this one. Reverse Psychology doesn't work on pirates.
Let's get this point straight: People don't like invasive DRM in their games - SecuROM and Install Limits come to mind, and other examples like them and only them. Going out of your way to forget copy-protection is a bad move.
Hear HearGrampy_bone said:
Basic cd-key validation for online play has worked, works, and will continue to work as long as the authentication servers are secure. Online communities like battle.net are 100% warez free exactly because of this. Not only that, but obviously using valuable bandwidth to serve non paying customers is a pretty silly idea to begin with. The notion that random consumers who download various software from p2p networks would have the moral fibre not to abuse an entirely unprotected piece of software is pretty naive. I hardly think these individuals consider or are even aware of the full brunt of their actions (as demonstrated in this case).
This is however by no means a justification for using overly restrictive DRM. As it stands, restrictive DRM schemes are used not to prevent piracy, but to prevent perfectly legit and legal forms of competition... meaning, creating back-up's to prevent loss, reselling of legally purchased products, etc. The flak aimed at DRM is not because companies employ it, it's because companies ABUSE it. Surely even in the business world of entertainment software, not everything must always be black or white?!
I don't think you are fully aware of just how utterly UNLIKELY it really is that a CD-key in the form of XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX using both letters and numbers, generated by a pirate will exactly match a CD-key generated by the developer and stored in their authentication server. The odds of this happening are astronomically small, I personally have never heard of this happening, and the cases where such incidents were reported it later turned out that a number of copies had had their cd-keys stolen/copied from the original jewel cases.Kwil said:
In the extremely unlikely, but not impossible event that a pirate DOES 'guess' a working cd-key however, it would be a simply matter of the paying cutomer mailing in the original booklet to have his cd-key reset. This can ALL be solved, by some very basic customer service. The inconvenience this would potentially cause to the customer is laughably neglectable compared to restrictive DRM, and DRM that breaks more legitimate copies than anything else.
Of course, that being said... CD-keys don't protect single player only/offline games, but then I've never really haerd of anything, other than an FBI agent attached to the disc, that actually protects those games...
If CD keys are so easy to figure out, why don't people make, say, a key gen for MS or Nintendo points cards or prepaid cellphone charge cards? And what can stop the pirates from just hacking any account on the server then? Do the pirates somehow get access to the key generation algorithms in the authentication server? No, brute forcing should not work. If they just keep a database of the keys that were issued there should be no way to find a key reliably (provided the keyspace is large enough, of course but that's trivial to do), the only thing a pirate could figure out is if there's an algorithm in the installer that accepts/rejects keys and perfectly matches the one in the server (just putting a hash part into the key would be enough to make a system that detects incorrect entries without divulging the key algorithm though it'd probably be simpler to just check the key with the server). If you make it possible for people to break your key system you're doing something really, REALLY wrong.Kwil said:
But that takes time. Had the game been a massive runaway success they could have faced a 100k legitimate user situation within the first week. You can't just snap your fingers and turn money into a server, there's time needed to deploy it.
Did I ever say it's justified in any way? I'm not pointing at justifications, I'm pointing at causes. People are more likely to warez a game when they can't just go into a store and buy it instead.
He had the same piracy rate as DRM protected games, I'd say that shows that any effect DRM may have is too small to show up in the statistics.
Wait they let pirates play online? I always thought that was the one place designers could stop pirates without bothering normal customers. (Heard rumors that pirates found a way around that though (they always do))
...Which is a quarter of what the drm advocates predicted so stardock must me doing something right, but releasing a good game isn't that because demigod isn't.scarbunny said:
Still, almost 20k sales on day 1 for an unfinished niche-in-a-niche game with hardly any (good) publicity isn't that bad.
Don't they usually hack stuff by bribing the local subsidiary's employees?Mythosx said:
Either way it's easy to fix, since the list is server-side just change the algorithm for all newly issued copies (of course you don't even HAVE to use an algorithm beyond a cryptographically secure RNG, nothing there to hack then). Yeah, the issued copied will be problematic but they're limited and if a hacker really finds their key (you did assign the keys randomly instead of sequentially, right?) before it's used by a legitimate customer you can have your customer service handle it. All cracking the algorithm can do is reduce the keyspace you have to search but if the keyspace is sufficiently large it's unlikely (we're talking about odds like once during the lifetime of the universe) that a cracker can find a key after it's been issued but before it's been used. This is really just a matter of storing which keys you issued and making sure the keyspace is large enough (and noone manages to break into your server and steal the key list of course but I think even that could be protected against by using an asymmetric encryption as a signature and only storing the public key for the signature in the server). It's made easier by the server being able to limit the rate at which keys can be checked (e.g. 1 per second per client would already make a 64 bit key uncrackable within the lifespan of the universe and most likely you'll use a much longer key).
I have a a co-worker who is a big gamer mostly on Xbox360, but I persuaded him to get a PC. He soon discovered how to get free games by pirating them online.
Now, I tell him its wrong, you should always buy your games to support the developers.
He simply says, "why would I pay for it if I can get it for free".
I realize at that time, the average pirate isn't doing this for moral or ethical reasons, they just want free shit.
The Gamer's Bill of rights is cool for us. But it will do nothing for the masses of more casual gamers who don't read gaming websites like the Escapist, whom have strong feelings about gaming issues like DRM. The majority of people will accept DRM as long as it doesn't break their game and prevent the buying party from playing it. But given the chance, those same people will steal and pirate in a heartbeat.
Now, I tell him its wrong, you should always buy your games to support the developers.
He simply says, "why would I pay for it if I can get it for free".
I realize at that time, the average pirate isn't doing this for moral or ethical reasons, they just want free shit.
The Gamer's Bill of rights is cool for us. But it will do nothing for the masses of more casual gamers who don't read gaming websites like the Escapist, whom have strong feelings about gaming issues like DRM. The majority of people will accept DRM as long as it doesn't break their game and prevent the buying party from playing it. But given the chance, those same people will steal and pirate in a heartbeat.