Dissing Mass Effect Andromeda because it has diversity and equality

[IamGamer41]

except for Manveer Heir (the racist game dave) who was not fired and in fact stated that the higher ups in bioware supported his comments, that kinda turned me off a bit (only brief research on this so i'm open to correction on this)

No, that's broadly true [https://i.imgur.com/r0vxSNc.png], at least according to Heir himself.

The man himself sounds like an extremely unlikeable person, but that's distinct from whatever skills he possesses in game design. From what I hear the gameplay is the only good thing about Andromeda, so he may well know his shit. In which case...I guess don't fire him? I don't want to be the guy who says "you must fire this man because of an unrelated thing he said on Twitter!" because then I'd feel pretty dang hypocritical.

Though it'd be nice if he could at least get a stern rebuke from his boss for being deliberately obnoxious [https://lucien0maverick.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/manveer-heir-white-tears.jpg]. I mean, there's "have a rational discussion about systemic racial privilege" and then there's "trolling." I'll let you guess which one Heir's more enthusiastic about.

Yet if he was a white man saying that about blacks he would be canned no matter how good he was a programing. There would be no stern talking to like you suggested. The double standards EA/Bioware showed by keeping this guy employed is very telling. Yet they couldn't because Heir would have cried racism. Racism is wrong on every front period.

 

[wulf3n]

Meh, you're always going to get some level of that sort of criticism, doubly so for Bioware games, at least since Dragon Age 2.

What I find interesting is the notion that the animations/character models/story/glitches are worse than the original Mass Effect trilogy.

Now to be fair I haven't yet played Andromeda and I could very well have had a more "unique" experience than others with the original Mass Effect trilogy (all Bioware games since KotoR even) but bad animations, character models and glitches are a staple of Bioware games. I sometimes wonder if people are looking at the original series through rose tinted glasses.

Story is a more subjective concept, especially from my perspective as I maintain ME1 was irrefutably the best written out of all. Things have gone down hill, story wise, since Drew Karpyshyn left

 

[Erttheking]

Is there a trans character in the game?

Are you telling me that they have unlocked the tech to travel to another galaxy...

Yet havent figured out how to swap genders better then what we have currently?

Why ARE there even "trans" people in the future? Isnt the whole "trans" identity only a thing because it takes so friggin long to actually transition from one gender to another currently? (leaving aside the fact that i yet have to meet a "trans" that actually wants to be called a "trans" instead of the gender they want to be) You gonna tell me we have biotic space magic and super heal bio gel but no way to turn Hans into Gretel in tiffy?

ME as a setting is so riddled with plotholes i think the only thing saving it ARE the graphic glitches...

...people don't stop being trans after they get a sex change, man.

But they usually don't refer to themselves as trans and instead refer to themselves as their preferred gender.

It's both. Trans basically means that you weren't born as the gender you identify as. There's a reason there's pre and post op transgender.

 

[Redryhno]

Story is a more subjective concept, especially from my perspective as I maintain ME1 was irrefutably the best written out of all. Things have gone down hill, story wise, since Drew Karpyshyn left

I wouldn't say it's the best myself, amazing introduction to the universe and absolutely amazing for the designs of the aliens being more than rubber ears and eyeshadow, but story-wise, sorta meh with the exception of a few key moments(Akuze background adding so much to some quests, Virmire if you bothered to learn about Ash and Kaiden, really made my second playthrough difficult at that point, and getting Saren to kill himself). However I will agree that Karpyshian leaving largely spelled the end of Mass Effect for me.

I maintain that story-wise, ME2 is the best simply because it was very much a character-focused story and I'm a sucker for suicide mission plots. ME2's launch trailer if I'm remembering right is still the most viewed of EA's main channel and Mass Effect's official.

 

[SpaceDoctor]

The transgender character is absolutely ridiculous. Transgender people never casually mention their traumatic backstory and previous name when they're first meeting somebody. If you're going to throw in a minor trans character, at least make it realistic, holy shit.

Is there a trans character in the game?

Are you telling me that they have unlocked the tech to travel to another galaxy...

Yet havent figured out how to swap genders better then what we have currently?

Why ARE there even "trans" people in the future? Isnt the whole "trans" identity only a thing because it takes so friggin long to actually transition from one gender to another currently? (leaving aside the fact that i yet have to meet a "trans" that actually wants to be called a "trans" instead of the gender they want to be) You gonna tell me we have biotic space magic and super heal bio gel but no way to turn Hans into Gretel in tiffy?

ME as a setting is so riddled with plotholes i think the only thing saving it ARE the graphic glitches...

...people don't stop being trans after they get a sex change, man.

But they usually don't refer to themselves as trans and instead refer to themselves as their preferred gender.

Transgender woman here, this isn't true. Plenty of trans men and women go through surgery and still identify as transgender. The basis for the identity stems from the gender transitioning itself, that's it.

We really have no objective way of stating why transgender people exist, so theoretically it would make sense that transgender people exist in the Mass Effect universe. But the fact that a transgender character has to run away to Andromeda because of gender discrimination makes no sense. Gay people are totally cool, and the Asari can do whatever they want, but apparently being trans is too much for everyone? What?

It's pretty clear BioWare just decided to slap in a trans character to win over trans players. It feels really ignorant and unapologetically bad, which is sad. I'm pretty sure the whole team was patting themselves on the back up to and through release date, until trans players came across the scene and started pointing out how shitty it is.

 

[Kwak]

Cultural lesson: here in Finland we have a term called "amis mustache", which has nothing to do with the amish.

In Australia, we call this phenomenon "bum fluff."

Just out of curiosity, does it have further specific implications attached to it like "amis moustache", or is it just a general term? I get that the "bum" part refers to either homelessness or a literal bum, but does it go beyond that?

No, it literally refers to the hair that grows on the cheeks of the buttocks, that light and fluffy covering that belongs on your posterior, not your face.
It's a playful way of saying you're a really shit man, because men are made by the girth and strength of their facial hair follicles, and nothing else.

ETA.. there's also something about the very first facial hair you grow that has a very different appearance to what typically appears on a man who periodically shaves, so it's also a dig at adulthood's first tentative appearance on an adolescent.
I think it looks cool. The beard of a man who never shaved that first growth vs that of those who did the expected and required manhood ritual seems different.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

The transgender character is absolutely ridiculous. Transgender people never casually mention their traumatic backstory and previous name when they're first meeting somebody. If you're going to throw in a minor trans character, at least make it realistic, holy shit.

Is there a trans character in the game?

Are you telling me that they have unlocked the tech to travel to another galaxy...

Yet havent figured out how to swap genders better then what we have currently?

Why ARE there even "trans" people in the future? Isnt the whole "trans" identity only a thing because it takes so friggin long to actually transition from one gender to another currently? (leaving aside the fact that i yet have to meet a "trans" that actually wants to be called a "trans" instead of the gender they want to be) You gonna tell me we have biotic space magic and super heal bio gel but no way to turn Hans into Gretel in tiffy?

ME as a setting is so riddled with plotholes i think the only thing saving it ARE the graphic glitches...

...people don't stop being trans after they get a sex change, man.

But they usually don't refer to themselves as trans and instead refer to themselves as their preferred gender.

Transgender woman here, this isn't true. Plenty of trans men and women go through surgery and still identify as transgender. The basis for the identity stems from the gender transitioning itself, that's it.

We really have no objective way of stating why transgender people exist, so theoretically it would make sense that transgender people exist in the Mass Effect universe. But the fact that a transgender character has to run away to Andromeda because of gender discrimination makes no sense. Gay people are totally cool, and the Asari can do whatever they want, but apparently being trans is too much for everyone? What?

It's pretty clear BioWare just decided to slap in a trans character to win over trans players. It feels really ignorant and unapologetically bad, which is sad. I'm pretty sure the whole team was patting themselves on the back up to and through release date, until trans players came across the scene and started pointing out how shitty it is.

I'm glad they included the character because it's so shamelessly shoved in there it's hilarious.

"I was working in a boring job filling test tubes BY THE WAY I WAS CALLED STEPHAN AND NOW I'M TRANS AND CALLED HAINLY WHICH IS A GIRLS NAME I GUESS?"

Though I'm confused that people hate how it was handled here but in that Baldur's Gate mod that did EXACTLY the same thing people were quick to defend it when other pointed out how ridiculous it was that someone would just out themselves like that.

Reminder:

Spoiler

 

[SpaceDoctor]

The transgender character is absolutely ridiculous. Transgender people never casually mention their traumatic backstory and previous name when they're first meeting somebody. If you're going to throw in a minor trans character, at least make it realistic, holy shit.

Is there a trans character in the game?

Are you telling me that they have unlocked the tech to travel to another galaxy...

Yet havent figured out how to swap genders better then what we have currently?

Why ARE there even "trans" people in the future? Isnt the whole "trans" identity only a thing because it takes so friggin long to actually transition from one gender to another currently? (leaving aside the fact that i yet have to meet a "trans" that actually wants to be called a "trans" instead of the gender they want to be) You gonna tell me we have biotic space magic and super heal bio gel but no way to turn Hans into Gretel in tiffy?

ME as a setting is so riddled with plotholes i think the only thing saving it ARE the graphic glitches...

...people don't stop being trans after they get a sex change, man.

But they usually don't refer to themselves as trans and instead refer to themselves as their preferred gender.

Transgender woman here, this isn't true. Plenty of trans men and women go through surgery and still identify as transgender. The basis for the identity stems from the gender transitioning itself, that's it.

We really have no objective way of stating why transgender people exist, so theoretically it would make sense that transgender people exist in the Mass Effect universe. But the fact that a transgender character has to run away to Andromeda because of gender discrimination makes no sense. Gay people are totally cool, and the Asari can do whatever they want, but apparently being trans is too much for everyone? What?

It's pretty clear BioWare just decided to slap in a trans character to win over trans players. It feels really ignorant and unapologetically bad, which is sad. I'm pretty sure the whole team was patting themselves on the back up to and through release date, until trans players came across the scene and started pointing out how shitty it is.

I'm glad they included the character because it's so shamelessly shoved in there it's hilarious.

"I was working in a boring job filling test tubes BY THE WAY I WAS CALLED STEPHAN AND NOW I'M TRANS AND CALLED HAINLY WHICH IS A GIRLS NAME I GUESS?"

Though I'm confused that people hate how it was handled here but in that Baldur's Gate mod that did EXACTLY the same thing people were quick to defend it when other pointed out how ridiculous it was that someone would just out themselves like that.

Reminder:

Spoiler

With Baldur's Gate, I think players were more likely to defend the attempt because a) there was such a huge negative outpouring against it, and b) it was really the first time someone had tried to create a transgender woman in an RPG. Most trans people had problems with it, but they at least wanted to give credit where credit was due.

But this character is exactly like BG's. It's like BioWare learned nothing from the whole controversy, which has people pissed off. Plus, unlike BG, trans players were the first to point out how awful Andromeda's character's is -- the original tweet pointing out the character's flaws was posted by lonelytiefling, who is a trans woman living in the UK.

Not to mention, it's BioWare of all places that messed this up, which is just insult to injury. Their writing can be awkward, but they did gay characters right early on in ME. There's a higher standard there; half-assed trans characters aren't acceptable with that kind of legacy.

Wait...where's this trans character in Andromeda? I definitely want to see what their actual conversation is instead of relying on an interpretation of an interpretation.

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm glad they included the character because it's so shamelessly shoved in there it's hilarious.

"I was working in a boring job filling test tubes BY THE WAY I WAS CALLED STEPHAN AND NOW I'M TRANS AND CALLED HAINLY WHICH IS A GIRLS NAME I GUESS?"

Though I'm confused that people hate how it was handled here but in that Baldur's Gate mod that did EXACTLY the same thing people were quick to defend it when other pointed out how ridiculous it was that someone would just out themselves like that.

Reminder:

Spoiler

People were quick to defend the Trans character because it was announced before the game's release. We didn't see how poorly the character was written until after the expansion came out and it was called out by trans people first just like this character.


Look at how they're now advertising that they've put a character with autism and a gay character in the upcoming Power Rangers movie. Notice how there's no big backlash? No one cares with the same intensity about identity politics. We're generally more often than not, critiquing how the media is acting like we're still in the late 80s. I hope to hell that the diversity characters in the new Power Rangers are written well, because from Ghostbusters to BG to ME:A they've shown that they don't know how to write them respectfully. Its always in a patronizing and pandering manner, which is insulting, because it treats minorities and LGBTQ+ people in a prejudiced manner. What's worse is that they're doing it for a buck.

 

[Makabriel]

You know, I did find it kinda jarring that 1 out of the 9(?) preset characters was "Standard White Protagonist". All for diversity, but all of the other selections were pretty out there and didn't interest me in the least for using them even as a base to start from

 

[Nature Guardian]

So, I've read about that shoehorned trans character in Andromeda. I'm a fervid SJW, but even I have to admit that was so badly shoehorned it could almost be offensive.

Human beings really have a way to turn everything, even the most positive things, into something that makes you pissed.

So what am I supposed to do? If I praise the inclusivity of ME:A, I also praise how badly and tokenistically it was done. If I complain about how badly it was done, it sends a message that developers shouldn't try progress and inclusivity.

 

[RaikuFA]

So, I've read about that shoehorned trans character in Andromeda. I'm a fervid SJW, but even I have to admit that was so badly shoehorned it could almost be offensive.

Human beings really have a way to turn everything, even the most positive things, into something that makes you pissed.

So what am I supposed to do? If I praise the inclusivity of ME:A, I also praise how badly and tokenistically it was done. If I complain about how badly it was done, it sends a message that developers shouldn't try progress and inclusivity.

Question, what maks you a SJW?

Also I think you should think "I love that a trans character was added in but did it have to feel so forced? I didn't feel any heart from it." I'm not you, I can't tell you how to think but I hope that helped.

 

[Nature Guardian]

[

Question, what maks you a SJW?

The fact I got called a SJW a lot on the internet.

So I just take my detractors by surprise by calling myself a SJW first. Really gives them no arguments.

Also I think you should think "I love that a trans character was added in but did it have to feel so forced? I didn't feel any heart from it." I'm not you, I can't tell you how to think but I hope that helped.

I mean, it just feels like you should complain because it's badly done, but if you complain about that you're just telling them not to try anymore.

Heck, I don't even personally care about adding trans characters. I just love the idea that everyone can find a character to relate to in a way; that nobody feels excluded.

 

[SpaceDoctor]

I mean, it just feels like you should complain because it's badly done, but if you complain about that you're just telling them not to try anymore.

Heck, I don't even personally care about adding trans characters. I just love the idea that everyone can find a character to relate to in a way; that nobody feels excluded.

I think "this is nice in theory, but bad in execution" is a pretty standard criticism that works well for this kind of thing. If a studio won't listen, or writers immediately take it personally, then they're probably doomed from the start.

 

[RaikuFA]

[

Question, what maks you a SJW?

The fact I got called a SJW a lot on the internet.

So I just take my detractors by surprise by calling myself a SJW first. Really gives them no arguments.

Also I think you should think "I love that a trans character was added in but did it have to feel so forced? I didn't feel any heart from it." I'm not you, I can't tell you how to think but I hope that helped.

I mean, it just feels like you should complain because it's badly done, but if you complain about that you're just telling them not to try anymore.

Heck, I don't even personally care about adding trans characters. I just love the idea that everyone can find a character to relate to in a way; that nobody feels excluded.

Not really. There's a reason constructive criticism exists. Going "lol it sucks" dosen't help. Going "it felt shallow, you could have improved it a lot more. Maybe by talking with some trans people to see how their families reacted, how they came to the realization they're actually a diffrent gender" is criticism they should listen to because it helps them down the road.

 

[Redryhno]

So, I've read about that shoehorned trans character in Andromeda. I'm a fervid SJW, but even I have to admit that was so badly shoehorned it could almost be offensive.

Human beings really have a way to turn everything, even the most positive things, into something that makes you pissed.

So what am I supposed to do? If I praise the inclusivity of ME:A, I also praise how badly and tokenistically it was done. If I complain about how badly it was done, it sends a message that developers shouldn't try progress and inclusivity.

Well, do you want more inclusive characters, or do you want it done right? If you just care about them being there, then praise it, personally I'll think you're just a poser like many are when it comes to this topic, but it's your right.

Or, you can make it perfectly clear WHY you don't like this and if it means less characters in the future, then

A) The writer and/or company were never interested in being inclusive in the first place, so win-win, you get less obviously shoehorned diversity points only in there to pretend they're interested in being inclusive, and others that don't particularly like it don't have to have it shoved in their face.

B) They improve and you get more than "My name is Shaunda and I used to have a dick but I don't anymore because I was able to leave and not have everyone remember my old name of Shawn" character introductions and less massive retcons of lore for a character to fit(personally this is my win). Again a win-win, you get what you want, the writer gets what you want, and it can be held up as the new standard of inclusive characters while not being obnoxious until the next standard can be reached and improved.

C) You get a writer/etc. meltdown calling you all manner of -isms, -phobic, etc. and you get ot have a good laugh because they obviously don't know what the fuck they're doing.

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

Honestly that's probably the least offensive example I've ever seen. If I had to point to a problem, I'd say it was that given its a background npc the writer was probably limited to 4-5 lines to get their point across which led to a rushed example.

The bluntness of it is kinda undercut by EVERY npc you meet dumping their reason for coming to Andromeda on you at the drop of a hat.

The game lays on the "new beginnings" theme pretty thick

Yeah, but if you're looking for a new beginning where nobody knows your name, why tell everyone you're trans? Sorta seems to get in the way of the plan of "I wanted a fresh start as the real me".

 

[wulf3n]

Story is a more subjective concept, especially from my perspective as I maintain ME1 was irrefutably the best written out of all. Things have gone down hill, story wise, since Drew Karpyshyn left

I wouldn't say it's the best myself, amazing introduction to the universe and absolutely amazing for the designs of the aliens being more than rubber ears and eyeshadow, but story-wise, sorta meh with the exception of a few key moments(Akuze background adding so much to some quests, Virmire if you bothered to learn about Ash and Kaiden, really made my second playthrough difficult at that point, and getting Saren to kill himself). However I will agree that Karpyshian leaving largely spelled the end of Mass Effect for me.

I maintain that story-wise, ME2 is the best simply because it was very much a character-focused story and I'm a sucker for suicide mission plots. ME2's launch trailer if I'm remembering right is still the most viewed of EA's main channel and Mass Effect's official.

Yeah, it's certainly a matter of preference.

It's also entirely possible that my attitude towards the story of ME2 was hindered by my expectations going in.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

The entire media regarding ME:A is a train wreck honestly. One the one hand, you've got humanoid scrotums who like to harass random game developers because they've assumed, based on no evidence, that person only at a company because of diversity quotas. On the other hand, you've got openly racist shitbags like Manveer Heir, and the spineless higher-ups at Bioware who don't reprimand him for his bullshit.
And all over a game that looks like a passable late 2000s cover shooter with wonky animations.

 

[SpaceDoctor]

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

Honestly that's probably the least offensive example I've ever seen. If I had to point to a problem, I'd say it was that given its a background npc the writer was probably limited to 4-5 lines to get their point across which led to a rushed example.

The bluntness of it is kinda undercut by EVERY npc you meet dumping their reason for coming to Andromeda on you at the drop of a hat.

The game lays on the "new beginnings" theme pretty thick

To me, it's offensive because it isn't very realistic. I'm not comfortable talking about my legal name, or immediately bringing up that I'm transgender. When I meet new people, I usually don't bring it up right away -- or at all. And I don't know a single other transgender person who is immediately open to talking about their past, or even mentioning their old/legal name.

It just comes off as really ignorant. I appreciate the attempt, but I think it could do more harm than good, because it's sending a message that this is an OK conversation topic to have with a trans person when you first meet them. It's not.

 

[burnout02urza]

I can't believe how incredibly ugly the game looks. I mean, it's not difficult to overlook graphics - normally - but this is a big-budget release. In fact, this is probably the AAA big-spender of the year.

And yet somehow, it looks worse than the original trilogy. The entire cast looks like they have Down's syndrome.

I'm really, really curious WHY this game looks so bad, or why they do that zombie shamble when walking. Like, Dragon Age's designs weren't amazing, but they only got really ugly in Inquisition. Is that even possible? How could the quality degrade that much over such a short period of time?

While we're at it, how does the cast manage to look so much worse than Zelda's or Nier: Automata's? I mean, Automata's 2B is a great (and sexy) design, while Zelda has that very clean, vaguely Ghibli-inspired design with almost Aztec-inspired lines.

I'm not sure why the ME:A cast looks like they were beat by the ugly stick. Either there was a catastrophic fuckup, or someone was deliberately fucking with us.

How is it possible that the Japanese are the only ones to design attractive-looking characters anymore? Most of the footage I've seen makes the cast resemble a roomful of children with special needs.

edit: While we're at it, diversity quotas are cancer. The person who thought up that idea should be castrated, so he can't breed.