Dubbed anime. Why is it so hated?

Dragonpit

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Anime dubs are usually haphazard, largely because they're being Americanized by those dubbing and are sometimes receive a half-@$$ed job as a result. To be fair, not all anime are like that and are just as interesting to see in both English or Japanese. But not everything translates well and, because of that, usually result in quirks. People pick up these quirks and it turns them off.

But that's the least of it. Another problem is that people dubbing this have this problem. To them, the term child means the same as idiot, and based on that alone, they think they can get away with anything, or at least make the mistake of treating children as idiots and handle anime with a level of maturity that shows in their work. However, even a child knows if you're cut, you bleed. (Various anime) They'll pick up on things that people will think are too subtle for them to pick up on and talk about it. Worse yet, people who aren't child who are fans of the shows (or at least the Japanese dubs) will see it and think it an insult to the viewers. It is, to be blunt, seen as a degradation of the intelligence of the viewers as a whole and a good way to ruin what some people view as a work of art.

And trust me, some companies do go out of their way to Americanize something once they get their hands on it. 4kids is an example of the extreme. They've replaced Japanese food terms with donuts or sandwiches, or otherwise replacing the foods completely. (Pokemon) They'll take Japanese jokes and turn them into extremely corny and not all that intelligent puns, even on kid standards. (One Piece) They've even on some cases taken characters' reactions and turned them into something that is completely out of context. (Naruto and One Piece) They'll gloss over Japanese cultures, replacing their values with ours. One could argue that this is just to make the material easier to relate to, but at the same time, I think it's a bad idea not to expose kids to other cultures, especially since they're going to be awash in the American culture anyway for what could be most of if not all their lives. 4kids got so bad they even earned the disapproval of the Japanese. You know you've gone too far when you've pissed off another country in the process.

Funimation is also an offender, though they seem to be changing recent years. Still, their older projects show signs of problematic Americanization, sometimes going as far as replacing Japanese locations to completely unrelated ones (Case Closed/Detective Conan). Being a Canadian, I find it embarrassing to see memorable locations from Kyoto being passed of as a part of Alberta.

Voice acting is a problem, too. Sometimes, the actors or actresses will read their lines and sound wooden as a result, just barely trying to sound into the material. (Sailor Moon) Or they'll convey their roles in a way that makes the characters sound cheesy or unintentionally strange. (Kenichi: The Strongest Disciple) And truly, there are voice actors who take great characters and replace their voice boxes with a diesel engine or a squeaky toy. (Disgaea) In it's own way, it's kind of sad, because many of these characters can be truly likable, too.

Race is sometimes a tricky issue as well, because there are plenty of people who all too easily take offense at the slightest quirk. People sued the ones dubbing Pokemon because of Jinx's coloring alone. And once this occurred it started a chain effect that resulted in a lot of recoloring in other animes, including Dragonball Z's Mr. Popo and that one Buggy Pirate from One Piece. Now, I have to admit that African Americans have had hard times in the U.S. They've earned a great deal of respect with what they've endured here. However, I believe that it's not helping the issue if we tiptoe too much around the matter. I mean, what's the point in putting them in anime at all if every instance of them is just going to be glossed over by painting them a different color? Is that not racism as well? I have to wonder.

Getting back to the matter at hand, there are some great dubs out there. Such examples are Inuyasha, Dragonball, Gundam Wing, etc. But sadly, when a person encounters bad or lackluster dubbing it can easily turn them off. It can turn what could've been a good experience into a severely watered down one. Because of this happening on too many occasions for some people to stomach, dubs have gotten a bad reputation. That's why we have so many complaints about it.

(P.S.: I'm not racist!)
 

Whitenail

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Ah yes...the old sub vs dub argument isn't just applicable to anime but it's also been a topic of debate for foreign films for quite some time (you think "I'll take a potato chip, and eat it" is a hilarious case of awful dubbing, try watching any dubbed Bruce Lee film [Quest of the dragon's almost unwatchable]).

Personally I prefer subs, unlike English-speaking films (or films in your native language) you're able to fill in a few more blanks like a book. With dubbing it can be out of sync, the voice-actors will have no notion of what's going on on screen (and it shows) and it's sort of degrading to the original actors (I was watching Downfall yesterday, the film used in all those Hitler parodies, and even though I only know a few scraps of German the emotion in the delivery really enhanced the film, something often lost in the dubbing process). However not all dubs have been bad, I watched Steamboy and Nausicaa in the valley of wind (is that the correct title?) with dubs and because they were both fairly high-budget animes they had some skilled/prominent actors covering the voices, not to mention the synching was spot on.
 

Blade3dge

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AyreonMaiden said:
I don't get the whole "Japanese acting sounds better" thing.

It all sounds the same to me. Could be because I don't understand the language, and as I study it more, I might begin to spot just why it's better.

But for now, frankly, I prefer English dubs precisely because I get the story in a language and mannerism I understand. The blunt, loud, direct nature of English is something I totally get, and it's something I totally prefer in my storytelling. As much as I love the sound of Japanese, and as much as I love studying it in order to become fluent, I understand Western attitude better than Eastern ones because it's what I grew up in. Of course, it's a given that the acting must be good.

But, less than the indirect nature of Japanese, what bothers me the most is the fans' unreasonable insistence on having things AS CLOSE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT LITERALLY TRANSLATING THE GRAMMATICAL STRUCTURE. I'm bilingual and when my friends ask me what a phrase in Spanish means, I'll tell them "There's no exact word for it in English, but it basically means..." And it seems like a lot of fan translators don't even try to relay the concept of a word or phrase, and think that authenticity means neglecting to give meaning to a word in a way that isn't intrusive.

/Rant incoming.

Take a scanlation of the manga Berserk, for instance. I was so pumped to read this because I was ready to catch up to the official release, and I find that Guts' name is translated as "Gattsu." In later volumes, it changes to "Gatts" until they finally settle for "Gutts." I mean, really? The word "gatsu" means "month," but what's more likely? That Kentaro Miura wanted him to be named "Guts" for how vicious he is? or Gattsu for...well...what? I mean, Guts isn't a great name, but again, in a world of Cascas, Rickerts, Farneses, Pucks, Griffith's, Schierkes, and other such Western sounding names, what's more likely? Guts for "vicious, atrocious warrior who bathes in the blood of his enemies?" or Gattsu for..."month."?

Along the same lines, the classic "Raito" and "Light" Yagami. What did Tsugumi Ohba mean when he gave him that name? Nonsense katakana randomly put together, or did he mean to say, in the best way he could, "Light," which encompasses the self-centered belief that he is a savior?

Or take a joke or cultural reference in a funny anime. I will always and forever take a wholly different joke over the old "Japanese joke on the bottom subs, explanation on the top subs as to why the pun/cultural jab is relevant/funny." To me that's like a shit comedian going "LOL GET IT IT'S A JOKE, HAHA HA HAA HAHAH HA. HA." at the end of his shit joke. It's intrusive, it wrecks the joke, and it's completely lacking in professionalism.

Or the old "dattebayo." What the hell is a freaking dattebayo? As grating as Naruto's voice is, I prefer "Believe it." Snappy, encompasses the nature of his character, and ISN'T NONSENSE.


/Rant done.

Stupid niggling crap like that makes me hate fan translations with a passion. I feel like a lot of them are too far up their asses with their "commitment to authenticity." I will always risk it with a shit dub before I try a fansub.
That's a very well though out opinion and I appreciate it fully, but if you get a chance could you respond to my post on page 2.

I get what you mean about pointing out the humor in cultural jokes seems a little arrogant but perhaps the strongest part of my argument is that whats lost in translation is the writing. It's something people so often ignore, while the plot on the whole may be important it's how the scenes are written which makes something good, it's the writing and culture and context that makes characters believable and when animes are westernized (because lets face it there's less of a market for the purists) the original writing is lost. Translators are not writers they are translators trying to make something make as much sense as it can to a Western audience, there is no shame in this but in a more Western context...

The Hobbit (fuck the Lord of The Rings haha) written by any other writer would be a very different book. Another persons writing style would lose the whimsical charm that shines through in JK Rowlings writing style, arguably though another writer could do a better take on JK Rowlings story =P But translators aren't professional writers and editors could never give the same care as somebody writing an original piece of work could... It's a shame but it is all about losing what made the original material so great.

That said, going back to your take on jokes. I do feel that some animes which are based around humour are better told in a Western style because unfortunately reading subtitles of a Japanese jokes is not as funny as hearing it in English, thankyou Full Metal Alchemist.

In conclusion, I watch and respect both and judge for myself which is better, English or Japanese.

EDIT: Is it just me or is there a huge hatred of English voice acting? Seriously! English voice actors can be bad but so can Japanese voice actors, I suppose they have a stronger anime culture so there is a greater expectation thus greater skill level placed upon voice actors but I think the issue boils down to culture, linguistics and writing and all that fantastic stuff that gets lost in translation before it comes down to "English people can't voice act".
 

QuantumT

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Blade3dge said:
In conclusion, I watch and respect both and judge for myself which is better, English or Japanese.
I can respect that. I just hate the elitists who are all "You watch the dubs? You're so lame!" etc.

EDIT: Is it just me or is there a huge hatred of English voice acting? Seriously! English voice actors can be bad but so can Japanese voice actors, I suppose they have a stronger anime culture so there is a greater expectation thus greater skill level placed upon voice actors but I think the issue boils down to culture, linguistics and writing and all that fantastic stuff that gets lost in translation before it comes down to "English people can't voice act".
I'm also not convinced that the Japanese voice actors are actually any better. They probably are, because they're more into anime, but if you don't understand any of the language anyway (as is the case with most Western viewers), then they could actually be awful voice actors and you wouldn't even notice the difference.
 

Shia-Neko-Chan

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mr_rubino said:
Shia-Neko-Chan said:
If the dubbing companies would try to get someone more well known and seasoned for voice acting, try to resynch the lips to the actors voices instead of the other way around, and try to get appropriate voices (this is crucial. Try to get an actual child to play a child or someone who can play one convincingly), then I would have no problem watching dubs.
Dubbing companies are not animators, and no country puts child actors in the majority of its animated shows because it makes long runs problematic.
I'm aware of that. I've seen it done before, though. What they do is, since the dubbing companies have access to the frames of animation, they'll make them synch to the voices of the American actors, rather than having the American actors synch their lines to already animated lips.

It's done very rarely, though, as far as I know.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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MulticolorCharizard said:
Andy of Comix Inc said:
the actor of Kyon on Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has nailed the art of sarcastic annoyance. His English counterpart? Not so much.
Oh come on! Crispin Freeman blew Kyons seiyu out of the WATER.
I 'unno. Didn't like him. But I only watched episode 1 dubbed though, maybe he gets better in the more emotionally straining bits.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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Reading these threads, why do I get the impression this is a she-said-he-said sort of issue? Subbed or dubbed, you still get the same story. It just comes down to personal preference.

You know you guys don't need to justify that right?
 

Lieju

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No matter what the original language, I usually want to experience the original one. Plus I study Japanese, so listening to it helps.

I don't hate the dubs, unless they really rape the original material, but I prefer the original. After all, I don't watch American TV-shows dubbed either, or read books originally written in English translated to Finnish, if I can find the original.
 

CarpathianMuffin

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I don't hate dubbed anime as a whole. A few are horrible, but I've seen my fair share of good/decent ones. Witchblade being one of the most surprising.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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I'll try to explain it as much as I can.

When people watch anime,they are invited to a vibrant culture. They are introduced to Japanese customs, and along the way, they learn what Japan considers funny, sad, heroic, etc.

It is only when you hear it in your native language and...well...it sort of looks retarded.

Japanese is foreign to us. We don't know a good dub from a bad dub, since its not a language we speak. But imagine if people in you city started to speak like they were in an anime.

" OH MY GOD! I MUST USE MY ULTRA ATTACK! SUPER RAINBOW BLAST!

" AHHH! HER TITTIES SURE HAVE GROWN!"

You see my point? its an exaggerated example, but true nonetheless. It seems cool and and all in Japanese, but once you hear it in your language, its people you understand who speak like this. People you can comprehend talking like fucking assholes. That's kind of why I think people are turned off by dubs.

Plus, there dubs are rarely any good, with a few exceptions. Though it depends on what you see first.
 

Zyxx

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KingPiccolOwned said:
...but it does mean that both can be bad.
Very true, but if you don't speak the language (at least not fluently) it's easier to ignore a bad voiceover or use the "cultural distance" excuse (e.g. "Maybe she's supposed be seem emotionless, I 'unno, I'm not Japanese")
Some things can't be defended this way, though. Sometimes the problem is with the voice itself, rather than how they're using it. Sorata from X/1999 and that hideous little girl from Airmaster both have Japanese voices that make me want to chop off my ears and fire them into space.
 

mew1234321

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Yeah, totally going to repeat what most people have said already.

Dubbing: Most people hate it because of bad voice acting, bad dialogue, and all the censorship (Frothy Mugs of Water, anyone?). While a few company's subvert this with BETTER scripts and such, unfortunately, the company's that tend to do a bad job are only limited to some of the largest damn dubbers out there.

Subs: Yeah, either, it's never going to get a release, (see: Super Obscure Anime No-one Has, Or Ever Will Hear Of In The West), or the fanboys are just so ravenous that THEY MUST GET THEIR NARUTO/BLEACH/WHATEVER NOW. I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE ENGLISH DUB.

And that's understandable.
 

xavierxenon

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Its because no matter how many good dubs there actually are people will always be ignorant and say that english dubbing is bad and japanese dubbing is defaulty good, even though I doubt a lot of people who watch anime know japanese well enough to even know if that voice actor is doing a good job or not.
 

Terramax

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SUPA FRANKY said:
Whilst I get what you're trying to say, if find your view is biased and flawed. For every person who is 'introduced to Japanese customs' by dubs, two people are put off by spending half of the time reading text at the bottom, and annoyed by the over the top, squeaky voices.

Furthermore, I've watched enough subs to know that the Japanese sense of humour is not represented any better in subs than in dubs. In fact, if anything, it's represented even less accurately. Reading your example, the characters talking in Japanese with the dialog written underneath them would make them seem no less like assholes. That opinion comes down to the open-mindedness of the viewer, with only the tone of voice if dubbed having anything to do with it.

Fair enough, bad dubbing can spoil the enjoyment of an anime... but bad acting spoils plenty of well written, high production live action films, so it's not as if that problem is constricted to anime.

Overall, sub or dub, it's about what allows the viewer get most enjoyment from an anime. Those who demand it to be in subs are just snobs. I watch all my world films in dubs, but I don't look down upon those who would prefer them subbed. Most people in non-English speaking countries watch Hollywood movies dubbed in their native tongue, but I doubt the characters come out as assholes as a consequence and I don't think foreign viewers are shunted from experiencing Western Customs.
 

Silva

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The main problem with dubs, for me, is when new lines are used or inserted just to make what's said fit the random lip syncing with the original Japanese animation. I'd rather look at badly synced audio than lines that are rushed to fit the quick, choppy and pronounced movements of Japanese characters' mouths as they speak.

Mostly it comes down to a poor amount of effort and budgeting put into the new version of the show. If you want a proper dub, completely re-animate the scenes so that the lines don't have to be fitted to the character's movements, but the other way around. THAT is how to make good English dubbed anime.

The other major reason is that I have a serial dislike of Johnny Young Bosch's work and he seems to crop up as the dubbing protagonist in many of the anime series that I like. He's become typecast as a protagonist even though these protagonists are completely different from each other, and I find that just cheap and nasty. His acting is overworked and ham-like, and so I feel like I'm watching a kid's version of everything he's in. He is by no means quintessential to a dubbing experience, but I believe he is quintessential to the worst dubbing experiences.

It may also be that I find that Americans can't approach the Japanese-ness of many anime series in the same way due to a very different background and cultural history, and thus tarnish part of a series' core nature with their own ideas. This can happen even unintentionally, and it's a shame when it happens.
 
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Well dubbing in everything is bad. I listened to dubbed Mummy Returns, Stargate and Simpsons. It was in French. The voice actors just didn't capture what the original actors had. I know it probably makes it more accessible but personally I rather subs because you ge tto hear how the original actor interpreted the script. The emotion being felt through the show this way is probably closer to what it should actually be. Given that it is spoken in the original language by a native speaker thus they should know all and be able to put accross all the nuances.
 

Zechnophobe

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Sincere outlaw said:
Watch baccano and then say you hate dubbed anime to my face
Watch it without Dubs and say you don't hate it? Seriously, one example of passable voice acting doesn't change the fact that the number of trained voice actors in Japan alone far outnumbers those in English speaking countries. Bigger pool, better talent.

I think more, I don't understand why anyone would had sub-titles. They are more representative of what the person actually says.