Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

[DudeistBelieve]

In all seriousness, who the fuck gives a damn what the Extra Credits guy thinks? Of course he's going to say "Oh Games are art! You don't control the narrative" because he's all artsy fartsy and pretentious... well hell, that his gimmick, and he does it well and it's entertaining.

That said, fans were sold a bill of goods with the first two games and left with a flat ending. I understand why they're pissed, this isn't like being angry about the Star Wars movies. Going to see those flicks in the theater cost what? An hour of your time and ten dollars?

These games run 60 dollars and require a serious investment of time, so it is perfectly reasonable to be pissed over the lame ending because it generally feels like Bioware just decided to phone it in. It's not just the fact the ending was three flavors of vanilla, or that we don't get a New Vegas style epilogue. I could accept that, it's that Joker and the FUCKING CREW THAT WAS WITH YOU DOWN ON THE PLANET SUDDENLY BREAK REALITY AND THEIR CHARACTER BIBLES AND FLEE!

Now re-writing the ending? It wouldn't break an artist "integrity" because, hey speaking as an artist, the whole point is to manipulate people to get a reaction out of them you desire. So unless Bioware's whole goal was to seriously piss everyone off, they FAILED as artist.

I'm surprised he didn't support the idea of a kick-starter page to get a new ending made. Then once they had enough money, and keep the extra.

They also offered to refund anyone who gave it to them, outlined a specific plan for it related to their purview and, most importantly, didn't tell people to give over the requested amount in the first fucking place. So yeah, full story.

It was a tongueNcheek joke dude. But they did go ahead and run away crying from Escapist and the fanbase here. So screw 'em. #Offtopic

 

[RatRace123]

You know what? You're probably right about that. But doesn't that make Bioware something of an underdog?

I don't think any of us (who weren't born with fetal alcohol syndrome) really believe that Bioware made that ending just to say, "Haha, take that, fuckwads!" If you have a grievance, by all means say so. But assuming that Bioware release a DLC to alter the ending, would it be so bad if they simply tied up the loose ends, provided closure and otherwise stuck to their guns?

That's all I want out of a DLC. I think it'd be cool if they added more content after the end, and personally I like the indoctrination theory and would like to see Bioware latch onto that.

But... if the content only cleared up some loose ends and add closure, I'd be more than OK with that.

 

[Alex Mac]

You have 2 minutes to explain why asking for a different ending was disrespectful..

Because a majority of people who are supposedly just "asking", aren't merely asking.

 

[Gigatoast]

I'm very disappointed in EC for falling into that tired 'artistic integrity' bulls**t. It doesn't apply to a commercial product, and it does not justify a failure to meet the promises made before release, and Bioware will not set a 'dangerous precedent' by fixing their crass mistake, end of story.

Technically, all Dan said was that if Bioware want to add an addendum for closure, they're free to do so. He just hopes that if they do so, they stand by their decision not to go with a more predictable sort of ending. What's so disagreeable about that?

Well because Mass Effect 3's ending isn't a subjective thing, it is fundamentally flawed in a multitude of ways and the entire series suffers from it's existence. And that's not just me talking out of my ass either, you know we've all poured hundreds more man-hours into explaining exactly why the ending doesn't work then Bioware's writers (or singular writer, if the rumors are true) spent conceiving the thing in the first place.

I'm not sure, but I don't think Dan addresses the fact that (yes I have to bring this up) Bioware promised they wouldn't pull this kind of thing weeks before launch, knowing full well that what they where saying was completely inaccurate and misleading. That's a manipulation and abuse of their fanbase that puts an ugly stain not only on the company, but also on the industry as a whole.

Hiding behind the impenetrable umbrella of "artistic integrity" in order to defend it is an insult to art itself. Does this mean studios now have the right to cut corners where ever they want and claim it was an artistic choice? That's a much more dangerous precedent because then the consumer no longer has a say in the product they are sold.

And this is fairly subjective, but the 'pseudo-philosophical twist ending' isn't really a creative risk, nowadays it's just a predictable as a happy ending. Funneling all your choices into a single outcome wasn't a decision made for the sake of art or originality, it was made because the alternative (which I remind you was Bioware's promised goal) was to make a multitude of different endings based on the player's decisions, some happy, some sad, some tragic. Anything less is a complete betrayal of the series' key themes and selling points, not to mention a betrayal of Bioware's fanbase.

What all these critics and internet personalities don't seem to grasp is that this was never the intended ending to the series, it only exists because someone ran out of time/money or someone got lazy. This isn't a case of fans simply demanding a different ending, this is a case of a studio being pushed to accomplish what they had actually set out to do.

 

[Elate]

Again with the games are art crap, I liked EC but god did that artsy stuff get old.

Games, sold for profit, with the intention of selling them for profit during creation, are a product first and art second, as such they should cater to the customer first, and then artistic vision second.

When Bioware starts producing games for free, then they can have all the artistic freedom they want.

 

[survivor686]

While I respect EC's opinion, one cannot deny the fact that Bioware promised "16 different endings". The fact that we essentially received 3 variation on the same one is at the core of why people are upset.

 

[Hammartroll]

Not-for-profit games are what I would call art; designed not for profit but to convey and idea. When you put a price on it, it becomes a buisness and must adhere to the rules of one. Bioware is a buisness and should act like one.

So it stops being art when you're no longer doing it pro bono? I don't follow.

First off, the fundamental problem with this arguement is that the term "art" is so vague that none of what we're talking about can be considered fact, but what I know is fact is basic economic rules.

If I decide to shit in my hands and make a sculpture out of it and then decide to show it off at an art gallery then fine, some people may consider it art, some people may think it's just a piece of shit. And I think that's a debate totally worth having, since what we consider to be art is mostly subjective.

BUT!!!

When I try peddle my shit statue and no one wants to buy it, I HAVE NO RIGHT to go calling people narrow minded for not wanting to buy something that I think is a work of art. When I put my art on the market it no longer matters what I think of it, all that matters is if people like it enough and in the free market THE PEOPLE ARE NEVER WRONG.

Bioware is looking to sell a product, that's their whole purpose. Sure it's good to have an artistic quality to your product, they usually sell better when they do, but only if it's an artistic quality that people are willing to accept, otherwise it won't sell. It baffles me how some people can be so arrogant as to think the Bioware developers should be scolding it's consumers when it's the cosumers who are the ones who allows Bioware to exist.

IT'S OUR MONEY AND WE WILL PAY FOR WHAT WE WANT. it's Bioware's job to provide that, and the excuse that a lame ass product they put out should still be bought and infact admired because they deemed it a work of art is just that, a sorry excuse.

And I havn't played Mass Effect 3 so I can't say how bad it was, but the economics concept still applies, the consumers are obviously unhappy with this product.

 

[archvile93]

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

Just because something is art doesn't mean it can't be changed or judged. Even the greatest artists changed their art to satisfy the person paying for it, but nobody says those are suddenly not art because they have no integrity. For an example, I think someone mentioned the pope demanding several changes to the Sistene Chapel Cieling. I also really doubt that leanardo Davinci never changed any of his works to suit the person paying. Do I think the ME3 ending is bad? Yes. Do I think it should be changed to something that isn't bad? Yes. Will I demand it be changed? Okay that's where I stop, I'm not going that far, admittedly. If they really don't want to change it that's there decision and I will respect it, but I will never believe that changing something destroys its value as art. It sometimes can, but I don't think this is one of those intances.

 

[Smiley Face]

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

I'll believe the ending was an artistic choice rather than a blunder as soon as they explain what they were aiming for artistically, and I can judge whether it was a) an artistic choice, 2) a good artistic choice, and 3) whether they succeeded in achieving that vision.

Overall, this article makes a lot of good points. I wholeheartedly agree that if there's one thing this ending does, it's that it drives home how excellent the rest of the game and series were, that it elicits this much investment (and, as some would argue, the glaring shift from that quality the ending represents).

Here's the question I have about artistic integrity: Assuming the finished project does NOT sufficiently execute the artistic vision, what is better - a) to leave the ending unchanged, or b) change it in such a way where the quality is dramatically improved and it executes the original artistic vision? Would choosing the latter option compromise artistic integrity?

In other words, IF BioWare never intended this, and IF they feel that they themselves don't like the ending, would it artistically improper for them to produce an 'ending supplement'? (Imagine, for this, that fan reaction doesn't enter in to the question - I agree, bowing to popular outrage just because it is popular outrage is wrong, but assuming that wasn't a factor.)

 

[Elate]

When Bioware starts producing games for free, then they can have all the artistic freedom they want.

No, I don't buy that. The customer is not always right and an artist should not have to give away free shit to retain the right to stick to their guns.

Ok, then they aren't artists. They're making something with the intent on selling it, that's a product not art.

As I said in another thread, if a meal I order comes with the wrong sauce, I have a right to complain and get it changed, because that chef (who some believe to be an artform) messed up what he said he was going to make. He doesn't turn around and go "NO YOU CANNOT, IT IS ART, YOU EAT IT AS IT IS" that's just ridiculous.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

While I respect EC's opinion, one cannot deny the fact that Bioware promised "16 different endings". The fact that we essentially received 3 variation on the same one is at the core of why people are upset.

*nods*

I love the fact, though, that essentially everyone in the gaming industry defends Bioware by every means that's available to them without addressing the core issues that the players/fans have brought forth.

The sad thing about all of this is that I remember playing Star Ocean 2 and that had...what...86 or 87 different endings? Hell, even Chrono Trigger pulled the multiple endings off better and it had only....ehhhh 10ish?

I think it's safe to say, given all the reactions from the different gaming sites and sources, that no one in the industry is willing to confront the issues that were raised; either for their own sake or for the industry's. Make no mistake about it, I agree with the fans that they were cheated in what they were given in the game story-wise, but I also agree with Bioware's decision on what they put forth in the game. It's just that decision by Bioware results in me using my money in a different manner than before ME3 came out. I'm just glad I have a brother that I can borrow games from!

 

[Jodah]

So, I have a question for the "games are art" folks out there. Let's say, just for a second, that games are art. Why then, are they the only form of art in the world that is immune to criticism? Nobody is forcing Bioware/EA to change the game. All people are doing is voicing their complaints, some better than others, but nobody has a gun to someone's head forcing them to change it.

Why then, is it a terrible strike against artistic integrity when gamers say "No, this is shit. You should change it" but it isn't when someone says it about a painting or music?

It isn't immune to criticism anymore than books and movies are. You are perfectly allowed to say "I really didn't like the way you did this ending, I think you could have handled it better."


However you are not allowed to demand them to change it after the work has been released- if they ask you for your opinion before the product is released, you can tell them that they should change it- they are asking you to take part in their artistic vision. After the piece is released, everybody else is not taking part in developing it- they are experiencing it. There's a bit of a difference. As far as I know, there hasn't been anyone that had DEMANDED an ending be wholly rewritten after the piece has been released in any medium aside from video games.

But see most of the people who say they want a "new ending" or want it changed would be happy with an indoctrination theory style ending. Keep the old ending as a basis to build from. And that has happened before with Sherlock Holmes and countless character resurrections from other series.

 

[Elate]

-snip-

And I'm guessing they didn't pay £40 for one movie ticket either. I don't care whether it gets redone or not, frankly I hope not, because it would be a disappoint for bioware to cave like that. I'm just saying that people do have a right to complain about it, and I'm fed up of that argument being beaten down by it being considered "art".

 

[Gigatoast]

Sometimes things just screw up. I'm aware of what was promised vs what was delivered. I understand why people are upset about that.

Here's my theory: what was promised was the original plan. For whatever reason, it never came together. The ending we got was made with the best of intentions, but it didn't work. I weigh consequences separately from intent. And I generally try to give artists and their teams the benefit of the doubt because I've been there. No one gives you a bad ending because fuck you. Sometimes things just screw up.

Would it be so bad to say that we didn't get a perfect ending, but if we're delivered the closure we wanted, then the developers at least made the most of an unfortunate situation?

There's definitely a whole lot we don't know about what went down at Bioware, it's pretty safe to assume they didn't try to screw up this bad. But the thing is, some of those developer promises are from this year, they where made after the game was already complete and the reps from Bioware knew what they created wouldn't deliver on both the customer's expectations and their own claims. That's where the ordeal goes from unfortunate to suspicious, and it's generated quite a bit of mistrust.

And while expansion is all well and good, the problem me and a lot of other people have with the ending is how it completely obliterates any possibility of closure. Everything you worked to achieve is undone in an instant and there really isn't much you can explain beyond that.

No, I don't buy that. The customer is not always right and an artist should not have to give away free shit to retain the right to stick to their guns.

True enough, but things aren't nearly as cut-and-dry as that right now.

Also, would you be surprised to learn there's an episode of "My Little Pony" that deals with that exact issue? Don't ask me how I know that.

 

[dessertmonkeyjk]

Basically the point is that Mass Effect 1-3 have choices have actual consequence which all don't impact the ending at all in how the story ends. Player choice was offered across all 3 games and then taken away at the last minute... and all you said was "artistic integrety"?

"We are the players and this is how we tell our story" is what Mass Effect has given us and I'll be very damn sad if I couldn't just attempt to board a reaper or use the Catalyst to lure them away and then use it as a bomb (even if it is stupid) opposed to the forced "choice" of blowing up the entire galaxy with the Mass Relays.

 

[wintercoat]

Ok, then they aren't artists. They're making something with the intent on selling it, that's a product not art.

Do you really believe that they're mutually exclusive?

As I said in another thread, if a meal I order comes with the wrong sauce, I have a right to complain and get it changed, because that chef (who some believe to be an artform) messed up what he said he was going to make. He doesn't turn around and go "NO YOU CANNOT, IT IS ART, YOU EAT IT AS IT IS" that's just ridiculous.

That was a stretch.

The recent remake of Black Christmas was advertised with a trailer that was made up entirely of shots that didn't actually appear in the movie. The movie itself was pretty awful too. But nobody filed a lawsuit with the FTC. They still left the theater having bought the ticket, older and hopefully a little wiser. Caveat emptor. As terrible as the movie was, no one was obligated to recut it in an attempt to make it less awful. Just as I had the right to refuse to buy a ticket or buy it on DVD.

This fallacy that all art is created equal and that art and business are mutually exclusive really needs to stop.

How sure are you that noone filed a complaint with the FTC? Hell, if the person who filed a complaint with the FTC towards ME3 didn't make a thread about it on the BSN, you wouldn't have even known. The FTC doesn't publicly list what grievances have been brought against companies.

 

[MoNKeyYy]

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Why? Why do you have a problem with them defending Bioware making a choice as a group of artists to realize their artistic vision? I'm sorry, but that's idiotic. You're attacking the idea of art because....it's art and therefore you think it's pretentious? Pro tip buddy, in a work of art every single element is a diliberate artistic choice. They chose the ending to be a certain way, and they have the right as a team of artists to make that choice in their work of art. Once you leave art aside and cave into the "der her i didnt lik it chnge it cuz im a winey fanboi" bullshit it's not art anymore. It's the third Transformers movie.

[Not in response to above comment] I haven't played Mass Effect 3 yet so I have no idea what the ending is, but seriously folks. It's an ending. They made an artistic choice. You didn't like it. Deal with it.