Fate/Stay Night and Typemoon in General
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http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Fate/ZeroChristopher N said:
Surprisingly, reading Fate/Zero is actually incredibly easy.
I've seen the first four movies of Kara no Kyoukai, and when I consider what I've seen alongside Fate/Zero, I've kind of realized that while they are brilliant animators, they have some problems with story telling. First of all, it takes five minutes for anything to happen. Second, though, they struggle a bit with translating novels to a visual medium. I noticed this very much with KnK, as a month or so after watching those four movies I went and read those four novels. In the movies, I despised Kokuto, but I didn't mind him in the novels. Oh, he wasn't anything special, he was basically a hollow shell harem-type protagonist with no defining features, but I didn't hate him.Nihilm said:
For example, in Lingering Pain, there's the moment where he talks to one of the guys who raped Fujino. In the movie as the guy is explaining, with zero remorse, how Fujino was beaten and raped repeatedly, Kokuto's just like, "k i'll protect you i don't want a nice person like you to die". And I'm like -_-. There's a point where being nice reverts back around to being an awful person, and he reached it (I believe they call this point the Shirou Event Horizon).
But the novel paints things differently, because I know what's going through Kokuto's head. He's pretty much ready to murder this guy, but he doesn't because 1) he needs him to find Fujino, and 2) murdering people is wrong.
Okay...that was longer than I expected it to be.
Rocks can kill Servants. Except in some chapters, where Servants can only be injured by other Servants.Evilsanta said:
...
BUELLEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!!!!!!!!! Er, I mean, NASUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!
![[Kira Must Die]](https://eg-forums-escapist-data.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/data/avatars/l/68/68539.jpg?1620622912){kind=avatar}
I can't say I have any experience with their visual novels. I mean, what is Fate/Stay Night? 50+ hours? Yeah, I don't have that much time to spend on a VN. I usually stick with shorter to medium length ones.
I do, however, have experience with their anime:
Fate/Stay Night anime- At first I thought it sucked, and I couldn't stand Shirou, but after exposing myself to some of the other stuff I've come to find it mediocre, and Shirou even grew on me a bit. There's still times where he can be a complete fucking idiot, though.
Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works movie- I enjoyed this a little bit more than the show, although I do admit on its own it's a mess, but I guess I like how much darker it was than the TV show, I like Rin better as a protagonist than Shirou, and I like the fact that Shirou is far more capable here than he was in the anime series.
Fate/Zero- Loved it. I'm a big fan of Gen Urobuchi anyways, but I felt that this is what the F/SN anime should've been. It also made me appreciate the series a lot more.
Carnival Phantasm- Love it as well. Even though I never got any of the Tsukihime stuff (haven't seen the anime), I still found it hilarious.
Kara no Kyoukai movies- Loved the movies. Loved Shiki, and I loved how dark they were. Also, the movies just looks gorgeous. The fifth one's my favorite, followed by the last one.
So in terms of their anime, I guess I do enjoy their stuff.
I do, however, have experience with their anime:
Fate/Stay Night anime- At first I thought it sucked, and I couldn't stand Shirou, but after exposing myself to some of the other stuff I've come to find it mediocre, and Shirou even grew on me a bit. There's still times where he can be a complete fucking idiot, though.
Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works movie- I enjoyed this a little bit more than the show, although I do admit on its own it's a mess, but I guess I like how much darker it was than the TV show, I like Rin better as a protagonist than Shirou, and I like the fact that Shirou is far more capable here than he was in the anime series.
Fate/Zero- Loved it. I'm a big fan of Gen Urobuchi anyways, but I felt that this is what the F/SN anime should've been. It also made me appreciate the series a lot more.
Carnival Phantasm- Love it as well. Even though I never got any of the Tsukihime stuff (haven't seen the anime), I still found it hilarious.
Kara no Kyoukai movies- Loved the movies. Loved Shiki, and I loved how dark they were. Also, the movies just looks gorgeous. The fifth one's my favorite, followed by the last one.
So in terms of their anime, I guess I do enjoy their stuff.
Think I'll avoid the power level discussions, for once.
But yeah, speaking as someone who's reviewed a chunk of the games and some of the adaptations, I love the Nasuverse. Tsukihime was my first visual novel, and will always war for the top spot in my heart.
The Shigetsutan Tsukihime anime is, well...I'm probably one of the few in the fandom who will tell you it's actually not bad as an anime, on its own merits. Certainly the music is beautiful, the art's all right, and under normal circumstances, I'd praise the atmosphere. It's a truly abysmal <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.142352-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Shingetsutan-Tsukihime-anime>adaptation of the story, though, so I'd recommend putting some story distance between yourself and Arcueid's route before watching it.
The manga, Lunar Legend Tsukihime, on the other hand, <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.145022-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Lunar-Legend-Tsukihime-manga>is fantastic, but it's one to not read before doing the whole game.
I'm in the minority, because I didn't mind Shirou during the Fate route. I never put him in the "dumb as a post" box, because he always struck me more as a guy who's struggling with something far beyond his comprehension and also fighting burgeoning feelings of love and his own personal insanity. I honestly don't think the Fate route gets enough credit in that regard, really. His actions in the later half foreshadow certain reactions during Heaven's Feel, and while he never faces a challenge to his ideals on the level of UBW/HF, he takes a monumental step towards resolving his own PTSD
In fact, he's one of my favorite protagonists ever, just for the aggregate of all the routes' impact on him.
I'm not trying to give it lukewarm praise, I actually loved Kagetsu Tohya to death, it just feels weird recommending it. If you can stomach a lot of text, <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.139628-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Kagetsu-Tohya>I reviewed it, if not...it's like a visual novel approximation of an open-world sandbox, and if you play it, you will see where 3/4 of all Tsukihime memes come from. It's kind of difficult to beat, but that's hardly a problem, since just going in any random direction will take you somewhere fun.
But yeah, speaking as someone who's reviewed a chunk of the games and some of the adaptations, I love the Nasuverse. Tsukihime was my first visual novel, and will always war for the top spot in my heart.
Huh. You're...welcome, I guess? Never expected a thread like this...jhoroz said:
Someone's probably answered already, but no, it's basically just Arc's route, with one minor design decision based on the Far Side routes.leet_x1337 said:
The Shigetsutan Tsukihime anime is, well...I'm probably one of the few in the fandom who will tell you it's actually not bad as an anime, on its own merits. Certainly the music is beautiful, the art's all right, and under normal circumstances, I'd praise the atmosphere. It's a truly abysmal <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.142352-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Shingetsutan-Tsukihime-anime>adaptation of the story, though, so I'd recommend putting some story distance between yourself and Arcueid's route before watching it.
The manga, Lunar Legend Tsukihime, on the other hand, <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.145022-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Lunar-Legend-Tsukihime-manga>is fantastic, but it's one to not read before doing the whole game.
Hardly.Nihilm said:
I'm in the minority, because I didn't mind Shirou during the Fate route. I never put him in the "dumb as a post" box, because he always struck me more as a guy who's struggling with something far beyond his comprehension and also fighting burgeoning feelings of love and his own personal insanity. I honestly don't think the Fate route gets enough credit in that regard, really. His actions in the later half foreshadow certain reactions during Heaven's Feel, and while he never faces a challenge to his ideals on the level of UBW/HF, he takes a monumental step towards resolving his own PTSD
By rejecting Kotomine's offer of the holy grail.
In fact, he's one of my favorite protagonists ever, just for the aggregate of all the routes' impact on him.
It's...interesting.Nihilm said:
I'm not trying to give it lukewarm praise, I actually loved Kagetsu Tohya to death, it just feels weird recommending it. If you can stomach a lot of text, <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.139628-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Kagetsu-Tohya>I reviewed it, if not...it's like a visual novel approximation of an open-world sandbox, and if you play it, you will see where 3/4 of all Tsukihime memes come from. It's kind of difficult to beat, but that's hardly a problem, since just going in any random direction will take you somewhere fun.
Every time someone talks about the F/SN visual novels I only feel regret because I never got around to play Heaven's feel, and everyone says it's the best route. (don't judge me, my saves kept getting wiped so I had to marathon through the Fate route and I had to hold-skip my way through it again later in order to get to and marathon UBW)
Well, I recently started playing the game "Tsukihime".
I am very early to the game and I am already confused about the plot, but in a good way I mean.
So I guess all the games of Type-Moon are "connected" and exist in the same world.
I am very early to the game and I am already confused about the plot, but in a good way I mean.
So I guess all the games of Type-Moon are "connected" and exist in the same world.
I really can't go anywhere near Fate/Stay, I was told to read the visual novel by me ex and got triggered super badly by the sex scenes. It's kind of a shame because it's kind of a cool series and I quite like Rider, though she's probably a whore like Saber u_u
A few words on Shirou:
-First off, he is not a bad character. He is flawed on purpose, and his flaw is his unrealistic idealism that he has to overcome in order to learn his limits and become a better person. Disliking him for that is like disliking any other character undergoing character development for their pre-development attitude.
-He is not misogynistic. His attitude towards Saber at the beginning stems from his hero complex (the aforementioned flaw), and him trying to keep her out of harms way is not because she is a woman but because he would do that to any servant. This attitude also changes quickly as the routes progress, so again, it still falls into character-development range.
-Most of the memetic idiocy attributed to him are misguided. The "People die when they are killed" line in particular was referring to his own situation being unnatural, surviving wounds that should have killed him ten times over. In that context the line makes perfect sense and making fun of it only shows one's lack of knowledge about the source material.
-People often dub his issues "teenage angst" when in reality Shirou actually has huge mental burdens and them only manifesting like that is a testament of his character. He is not only ridden by survivor's guilt over the fact that he was the only survivor of the "fire" that destroyed a city block, it also fuels a nihilistic approach to life that makes him value other people's lives over his own to an unhealthy degree, which then funnels into his hero complex he "inherited" from Kiritsugu, AND on top of that he is thrust into a battle royale he knows almost nothing about and where a single wrong move can cost him his life and the lives of everyone around him WHILE he also has to deal with his romantic relationships at the same time. It's a small wonder the guy doesn't just up and implode under the mental strain instead of just letting out some occasional angst from time to time...
With that said, I am also curious about the Heaven's Feel adaptation, since it is my favorite route with the most hateable villain in the entire VN and I adore poor Sakura.
Hopefully the studio will go with the good ending, though I fear they might use the normal ending for the added emotional punch...
As for the other adaptations, the FSN anime was a mess that tried to put all three routes into a blender and ended up with a pile of lukewarm nothing, while we don't have a Tsukihime anime, though I would really like to see one. I mean, how can you mess that up?
-First off, he is not a bad character. He is flawed on purpose, and his flaw is his unrealistic idealism that he has to overcome in order to learn his limits and become a better person. Disliking him for that is like disliking any other character undergoing character development for their pre-development attitude.
-He is not misogynistic. His attitude towards Saber at the beginning stems from his hero complex (the aforementioned flaw), and him trying to keep her out of harms way is not because she is a woman but because he would do that to any servant. This attitude also changes quickly as the routes progress, so again, it still falls into character-development range.
-Most of the memetic idiocy attributed to him are misguided. The "People die when they are killed" line in particular was referring to his own situation being unnatural, surviving wounds that should have killed him ten times over. In that context the line makes perfect sense and making fun of it only shows one's lack of knowledge about the source material.
-People often dub his issues "teenage angst" when in reality Shirou actually has huge mental burdens and them only manifesting like that is a testament of his character. He is not only ridden by survivor's guilt over the fact that he was the only survivor of the "fire" that destroyed a city block, it also fuels a nihilistic approach to life that makes him value other people's lives over his own to an unhealthy degree, which then funnels into his hero complex he "inherited" from Kiritsugu, AND on top of that he is thrust into a battle royale he knows almost nothing about and where a single wrong move can cost him his life and the lives of everyone around him WHILE he also has to deal with his romantic relationships at the same time. It's a small wonder the guy doesn't just up and implode under the mental strain instead of just letting out some occasional angst from time to time...
-Contrary to common belief, Shirou doesn't turn into FSN Archer. That particular future EMIYA came from the non-existent Ilya route of the game that got scrapped during development. Yes, he has the capability to beceome Archer, but he probably wouldn't in any of the VN's routes, and even if he does, he would be a completely different person. Please stop using this flimsy excuse, it just subtracts from the character's real strengths.
With that said, I am also curious about the Heaven's Feel adaptation, since it is my favorite route with the most hateable villain in the entire VN and I adore poor Sakura.
Though again, most people apparently hate her for doing bad things after
-Being enslaved by her adoptive family
-Repeatedly raped by said family
-Killing a named character we are supposed to hate anyway
-And finally mind-broken by the materialization of human hatred and sins...
Go figure.
-Being enslaved by her adoptive family
-Repeatedly raped by said family
-Killing a named character we are supposed to hate anyway
-And finally mind-broken by the materialization of human hatred and sins...
Go figure.
As for the other adaptations, the FSN anime was a mess that tried to put all three routes into a blender and ended up with a pile of lukewarm nothing, while we don't have a Tsukihime anime, though I would really like to see one. I mean, how can you mess that up?
I have seen this discussion so many times... -.-jhoroz said:
In short, both Ryogi and Tohno could kill servants because they are not Perfect Existences like the Aristoteles (ex. Arcueid or ORT). The servants are practically Heroic Spririts (aka. the actual Perfect Existences that cannot be destroyed and thus have no lines or dots) grafted into a humunculus made by the Einzberns, so while the soul itself is perfect, the body is not and thus can be killed with the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
As for practicality, they would never be able to kill a servant in a straight battle, but if they get the drop on one (unlikely) or the servant underestimates them and lets them have the first strike then it is possible they could harm or kill one of them.
Also, Ryogi would probably be able to mess around with things like cutting command seals to dispel the servant or cutting their connection to the grail to get rid of them, both of which would probably work much better than a direct confrontation, but in the end it is just a hypothesis and goes too far into speculation territory.
Oh come on! The entire 50+ hour game has a grand total of five or six ten minutes long H-scenes that are completely skippable since they don't have any real significance and were only put there as a convention of the genre and for fanservice. Dropping the game for something like that is just a silly excuse...Snowbell said:
They are connected, but they don't all happen in the same world, it is heavily implied that they just happen in really close alternative universes. Which accounts for any inconsistencies between the worlds. There is even a character that can move between these universes, although he is a minor character and so far I think ive only seen him mentioned once.SweetShark said:
For the most part I can agree with you, he was flawed on purpose, it was fairly obvious, but I think this is the case of where the flawed character especially in the fate route is just unlikable, it serves a purpose, but that doesn't make him likable.GabeZhul said:
I think people would have less of a problem if he wasn't the main protagonist, because in a VN format you put yourself in his shoes and have to live in his head. I actually thought the "people die when they are killed" came from a play on words from japaneese that could not be properly translated to english, something abotu chaning the words in one of their proverbs or something. Honestly, I know the context, it's just a funny line.
I don't even like saber that much and I really don't see how she was a whore. Even though I wouldn't agree I could see how someone could make that rude point about Rin or Sakura, but I really have a hard time seeing it about Saber. Oh well, you do know there should be a no-H version of F/SN out there track it down if you get bothered by the slight amounts of H in it.Snowbell said:
Nihilm said:
Nasu has said that rank E is 10x human's ability, D is 20x etc, while during Archer's fight he said that he was at a 10th of his power due to not having a master for so long. And given his really low stats, he wasn't really much stronger than Shirou. Also Shirou had Avalon during that fight, while Archer doesn't. My justification of the Gilgamesh fight was that it was cool as hell.
If Yuki Kajiura composes HF and it's not trying to compress it all into 26 episodes, then maybe I'll be excited by the anime - but it's the most interactive route and no Fate/Stay Night visual novel adaptation has been anything above mediocre, so...
That said Fate/Zero is still excellent, I confidence they'll at least try their hardest to stick to it as well as they can.
While Shirou is my second favourite protagonist, gonna have to disagree on your first point. Remember when he said he thought it was good that a molester came after Rin's rival, so as to remind her of her femininity.GabeZhul said:
And just because you can justify a character's personality (e.g. Sakura) doesn't mean that they suddenly become likeable. I strongly dislike her because she pisses me off constantly.
jhoroz said:
It was never about the connection with Saber, it's about being near Saber - hence why Irisviel is healed by it.
Woah, Maybe I should have included that my "Shiki can kill servants" was a joke.
Also Nasu has to pick up the pace with the Tsukihime remake, I will make Sacchin happy damn it!
EDIT: Though the power level discussion here is pretty tame compared to some other topics I have read on the same matter.
Also Nasu has to pick up the pace with the Tsukihime remake, I will make Sacchin happy damn it!
EDIT: Though the power level discussion here is pretty tame compared to some other topics I have read on the same matter.