Female Game Characters Photoshopped to Average American Proportions

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

snip

You do realize you have just presented an extreme Photoshopped Sports ilustrated version of Kate Upton as being "real"? LOL Having to have surgery, Photoshop or extreme dieting is not what anyone would consider a " role model" image. Role models are supposed to be superheroes, not getting breast implants, crash dieting and still having to be photo shopped afterwards. What people are asking for a is a variety of healthy role models and superheros, not just one body type. Reality is no matter how much most women work out, corset, diet and exercise, they are never going to have my waistline. Women are constantly asking me what I do to keep shape, even asking if I use " waist trainers" or corsets. I hate telling them probably much less than they do, I was just born this way. That isn't being a role model, or super hero or something people should look up to or aspire to. It is just creating unrealistic expectations.

The boob jobs, the butt implants, the tummy tucks.. That isn't " normal" or healthy, it is due to people having an extremely distorted view of what it means to be a woman. They feel like they have to do these things or they are not attractive due to how the media has portrayed women. It should be okay to show women how they are without all that and that to be considered normal.

 

[someguy1231]

I see where you're coming from, but this argument doesn't cover much ground, mate.

I wouldn't consider that the 'only times', especially when food scarcity isn't really a fixed state kinda deal. Like did Rubens and Bottecelli exist in a period of food scarcity? Relative to what? If they had fuller tummies than those in Mauritania, is their beauty standard less chunky to that same proportion? Mexico today seems to favour a larger brand of woman than the US does - which appears to fit into your theory, until you consider all the countries with different weight standards who don't sit at the right places on this 'food scarcity scale' we've constructed.

Rubens was highly influenced by his (overweight) wife, and I don't consider the women in Botticelli's works to be fat or overweight. Can you point me to any historical culture that had abundant access to food for all, and still idealized fat women? Ancient Egypt was one of the biggest breadbaskets of the ancient world, and as their numerous monuments show, they favored a thin, slender woman.

C'mon, son. What does merit have to do with this bollocks? Am I taking it correct that you're trying to imply that this isn't real attraction - not that proper attraction that we have to thin ladies?

There are tons of people in the present who date or marry people they don't consider physically attractive in order to get access to their wealth/influence/etc. It was the same principle with fat women being held up as ideal back then.

I'm aware of the Marilyn myth, not my point geezer.

Nothing to do with weight, just pointing out how different the beauty standard was even 20-30 years ago.

Shit, even the beauty standard today is starting to change from what was posted in the OP. The curvier look of Nicki Minaj, Queen B and Kim K don't look much like Rikku, Cortana and Tifa.

It isn't nearly as different as you think it is. As someone who looked at liberal amounts of Playboy 20-30 years ago (yeah, no shame in saying that), I can assure that their average weight and body shapes are pretty much identical to today. All that's changed is preferences in hairstyles, makeup, and personal grooming. I don't know what pictures you've been looking at, but in terms of body shape all of those women are very similar to each other. Flat stomaches, similar waist-hip ratios, etc.

And: 'Cleopatra's nose, had it been shorter, the whole face of the world would have been changed'.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a dick, but what you're saying is straight up bull.

Even if you could come up with an average across history and culture, the outliers would be so significant as to make it meaningless.

Going look at Nefertiti doesn't mean anymore than me saying 'Look how ugly those bitches in Charlie Chaplin films were.'

How do you know what you're saying is true? Remember that "fat" is relative. Much of what we consider "fat" or "obese" today would've been considered just as grotesque in most cultures. When historical women are described as "plump" or "full-figured", they meant that they weren't malnourished, which was a very real problem for lower class people before the 20th century.

Another thing to consider is whether a specific woman depicted in a painting or statue is supposed to be attractive. Depictions of fat women may be more to illustrate plenty and bountifulness rather than beauty and attractiveness. This is why the best way to gauge a society's standards of beauty is to look at women that we know were considered beautiful in their time. Love Goddesses like Aphrodite/Venus are an obvious choice, as well as the wives/mistresses of whoever the king/emperor was. I've seen tons of those (took some art history classes in college), and I don't remember a single one being as fat as the "realistic" women depicted in bulimia.com's silly little project.

 

[RelexCryo]

uhhh... I think whoever made these "realistic proportions" forgot that there are women out there who have incredible figures and not everyone is chubby or thunder thighed

This. Saying these proportions aren't realistic is bigoted against the women in real life who do have figures like these. They are human beings just like everybody else. "Average" and "Realistic" are not the same thing. That said, some videogame designers should recognize that their is beauty in diversity.

 

[someguy1231]

That said, some videogame designers should recognize that their is beauty in diversity.

How diverse, though? That's always been the problem with these conversations about "widening" or "expanding" or "challenging" beauty standards.

Beauty is exclusionary by its very nature, because beauty can't exist without ugliness. That's why I really hate it when people say "Everyone is beautiful!" or "All bodies are beautiful!" If everyone is beautiful, then beauty itself, as a human quality, is utterly meaningless and insignificant. In other words, if everyone is beautiful, then no one is. Not everyone can have a genius-level intellect, or be a gifted athlete or a talented singer. Why is beauty the only human quality that everyone should be equally entitled to?

And how do you "change" beauty standards anyway? Suppose that tomorrow, every advertisement, every modeling campaign, every "sexiest woman ever" title, suddenly started to only feature fat women, or bald women, or women with missing teeth, or whatever other change in beauty standards you're trying to push. That alone wouldn't accomplish anything. All of these still have an intended audience, and that audience doesn't have to accept what they see as "beautiful". That's why you don't see fat women in most of those places. Most men (and women too, for that matter!) don't find them beautiful or attractive.

 

[elvor0]

On the topic of redesigning characters in a more realistic way, I'm actually quite fond of nebezial's depictions of Wonder Woman over on deviantart. She's still definitely feminine, but she also definitely *looks* like someone who punches people and throws cars for a living, and who likely spends hours, upon hours, training to do so. You can look at her physical design and glean things about who she is as a character, and I think that's something a lot of character designers forget. It isn't just about the clothes, or the gear, the base, physical build of your character is a vital part of the design. On a well-designed character, you should be able to remove all clothing, all their gadgets, gear and external trappings, and *still* be able to convey something about who they are purely by how they are physically built and how they carry themselves.

I like how he depicts Supergirl too (generally a tiny, petite little thing), which really does juxtapose her physical appearance with her superhuman abilities in an amusing way.

To slightly go off topic, that is a badass depiction of Wonder Woman and I've been having a great time looking through that artists portfolio.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Please show where I said that this article is the issue, and not just talking about the issue as a whole.[/quote]

Dude, you have continually changed the subject every time the questions get uncomfortable throughout this entire exchange, like, anyone can read through this chain and see everything you know?

You wanna answer the original question yet? Why use fictional characters to promote a real world problem?(that of bulimia) Why not use real people to demonstrate why it's a real world problem? Why not use real people to demonstrate why it doesn't have to be a real world problem?

snip

You do realize you have just presented an extreme Photoshopped Sports ilustrated version of Kate Upton as being "real". LOL Having to have surgery, Photoshop or extreme dieting is not what anyone would consider a " role model" image. Role models are supposed to be superheroes, not getting breast implants, crash dieting and still having to be photo shopped afterwards. What people are asking for a is a variety are healthy role models and superheros, not just one type. Reality is no matter how much most women work out diet and exercise, they are never going to have my waistline. Women are constantly asking me what I do to keep shape, even asking if I use " waist trainers" or corsets. I hate telling them probably much less than they do, I was just born this way. That isn't being a role model, or super hero or something people should look up to or aspire to. It is just creating unrealistic expectations.

You do realize he posted more than just a Kate Upton thing right? I mean, I don't think he even really mentioned her in that post beyond just having a picture I'm assuming is of her next to a bunch of cosplayers that look very similar to the un-shopped characters...Heck, they look like they have slightly more muscle too, which is always a plus.

 

[Jingle Fett]

Spoiler

What I find interesting is that the prevalence of obesity in Japan is less than 5% according to the chart. And it just so happens that literally half of the photoshopped characters in the list were created by Japanese developers...

We should photoshop pictures of IRL average Japanese women to make them like average American women, see what happens. Interestingly, you'd probably have to alter them almost as much as the fictional characters were altered...

 

[Redryhno]

Please don't just reply with a third accusation without supporting the first two.

Dude, read through this post chain, seriously, and you'll probably get an idea where I'm coming from. Or ignore it, I don't really care about that part.

All I'm interested in is the questions I started with that you have still not even bothered to answer.

So I ask again:

Why use fictional characters to promote a real world problem?(that of bulimia) Why not use real people to demonstrate why it's a real world problem? Why not use real people to demonstrate why it doesn't have to be a real world problem?

I'm gonna keep asking this.

 

[Redryhno]

You can keep asking whatever you want, just don't make baseless accusations any more and we'll be fine. Keep making accusations, and I'll keep telling you to prove them or go away.

The leading or loaded questions of yours that you've complained everyone keeps ignoring, I'll just keep ignoring too.

How is it leading and loaded? Seriously, answer that and I'll try to tailor a response that isn't leading

Maybe something more like:

Do you think that this is the best way to combat bulimia and body shape junk? Fictional versions of already fictional characters? Or do you think that showing real world examples would be a better starting point?

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Dont make heroes capable of great fighting look fat, make them more muscular. That would be better. Then again we seem to think Dudes need to look like show ready bodybuilders to be strong(Strongman, powerlifters and MMA would like a word!)

 

[elvor0]

But then I'm not really talking about aesthetics, because the near complete lack of musculature everywhere is indicative of someone who will probably have bone, joint, cardio-vascular, and multiple other problems later in life.

.....you don't have a significant other do you? Sounds like something out of the GAF.

Most people are likely to have those issues to a certain degree later in life, it's called getting old. that's a fact of life. Upton isn't exactly fit, but she's hardly unhealthy.

 

[DayDark]

Well, that's kind of related to the concern that the group has, that the ever presence of this kind of body image represents an unattainable ideal for the average person, the pursuit of which could result in the development of the eating disorders they provide information about.

Is anyone really suggesting that because a holographic female character in a videogame exists, people binge? Because if they are, I'd really like to see the data and proof of causality...

Yes, I am being a tad facetious, but I don't see the value of pointing out typically heteronormative idealisation in videogames when there are major issues in a nation's attitude to nutritional education, the food industry, and [lack of] exercise. This approach just seems remarkably misguided.

Nobody is saying literally that holographic female characters are causing eating disorders...just that the recurrence of unattainable body images that reinforce eating disorders blfkfdldkf sorry I can't finish this sentence...

 

[NPC009]

-snip-

Eww, what the fuck is wrong with that Sonya cosplayer? She looks disgustingly thin...

No thin shaming please.

But that waist is SOOO fucking narrow. That cant be healthy.

I don't know. Some women have a slender build. Plus, she's standing up nice and straight (which makes you look thinner), and is probably sucking in her belly a bit to make it appear even flatter.

 

[LetalisK]

I'm not sure if that's supposed to be an indictment of unrealistic body portrayals or the weight problem in America. Both?

 

[Beliyal]

-snip-

Eww, what the fuck is wrong with that Sonya cosplayer? She looks disgustingly thin...

No thin shaming please.

But that waist is SOOO fucking narrow. That cant be healthy.

I don't know. Some women have a slender build. Plus, she's standing up nice and straight (which makes you look thinner), and is probably sucking in her belly a bit to make it appear even flatter.

That kind of build is not average where I live, but not that uncommon either.

I'm surprised at how people are assuming because someone is slender that they're unhealthy / sucking in their stomach.

I'm also surprised at how people are assuming because someone is chubby that they're unhealthy/obese.

Basically, people often think that they can just look at someone and determine their health, be it from someone who is thin or someone who is fat. Those people should probably just mind their own business instead of play doctor without actually having a medical degree and without actually examining the patient thoroughly. Outside of a few huge extremes, you can't actually know if someone is healthy just by looking at them.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Nobody is saying literally that holographic female characters are causing eating disorders...just that the recurrence of unattainable body images that reinforce eating disorders blfkfdldkf sorry I can't finish this sentence...

Given that I said "I am being a tad facetious" I'm not sure that reminder was necessary, but whatevs.

I'm a feminist and I'm aware of the concerns, but I also think this stunt does more harm to the dialogue than good. You cannot ignore context when studying the cultural value and potential impact of something, and that's precisely what the nomark/s who constructed that inane list did.

8 out of the 10 are either highly proficient martial artists or highly capable fighters, and the other 2 are a non-character who, as I understand it, never once even appears in the cited game (the promo bikini blonde for GTAV), and a piece of art of a hologram AI which, again, never appears like that in the games ('actual' Cortana could be seen as 'worse', ironically).

Tifa's a great example of their shitty, misleading methodology: any discussion of her design and proportions must be had taking into consideration the relative proportions and overall artstyle of FFVII - one look at artwork (because they didn't choose in-game Tifa to moan about) of Cloud is enough to gain perspective about the tone and contexts of the game's art style. If an impressionable girl is playing FFVII, she is assimilating the totality of the work, not just the individual components.

The same approach can be applied to dismiss every single character on that list. Oh, and the Lara they idiotically chose is 12 years out of date, and their apparent gripe with ye olde Lara is ironic given that the current - culturally relevant - Lara has been pretty well received in terms of being a good, relatable female character.

I believe games do need to represent wider variations in body image (primarily for female characters, but also for male), but that site's stunt is only destructive to proper discussion.

 

[DayDark]

Nobody is saying literally that holographic female characters are causing eating disorders...just that the recurrence of unattainable body images that reinforce eating disorders blfkfdldkf sorry I can't finish this sentence...

Given that I said "I am being a tad facetious" I'm not sure that reminder was necessary, but whatevs.

snip

I think maybe I should have put an /s somewhere to make sure it showed that I wasn't exactly being serious, since I don't really believe in the "we didn't say it! [small]we just heavily insinuated it...[/small] ", but thanks for the thought out post, I agree with you.

 

[Wakey87]

This says more about America than it does video games, Here those images on the right would be considered over weight.

I'd love see Nathan Drake as the average male American lol

 

[Beliyal]

I'm also surprised at how people are assuming because someone is chubby that they're unhealthy/obese.

Basically, people often think that they can just look at someone and determine their health, be it from someone who is thin or someone who is fat. Those people should probably just mind their own business instead of play doctor without actually having a medical degree and without actually examining the patient thoroughly. Outside of a few huge extremes, you can't actually know if someone is healthy just by looking at them.

It's both stupid.

But I do think the trend of "fat acceptance" is potentially harmful, since I haven't yet seen advocating for such that acknowledges that morbidly obese people have an unhealthy body / lifestyle.

But yes, some people are too quick to judge.

Honestly, the fat acceptance as I understand it is simply acknowledgement that fat, even morbidly obese and unhealthy people, don't deserve to be shamed and mocked, but helped, as well as that they don't have to hate themselves because of it. I mean, when someone is fat, I do think that being kind and understanding is better than pointing fingers and yelling "You're so unhealthy and ugly!" It's far healthier to accept your body and learn to love it. It doesn't mean that you'll stay morbidly obese forever, it just means that you won't go into a diet and a workout routine with high psychological damage over hating yourself.

As far as I've seen, people still advocate for healthy lifestyles, but they also approach fat people with care rather than anger. That's acceptable to me. Being too quick to judge is definitely a problem, especially when fatness is a consequence of some medical issue, rather than just eating in McDonald's 5 times per day. In truth, no one can tell if someone is fat because of a biological disorder or overeating just by looking at the person. And also, some people are fat, but in the process of losing weight, only it won't be visible instantly and it will take a long time. They should definitely be faced with acceptance, rather than mockery. Losing weight is an arduous process; for some, it takes years. In the meantime, their bodies should not seen as some sort of a grotesque offence. It can certainly negatively impact them and their willingness to continue with the difficult process of losing weight if they are not accepted. Same thing for thin people really. I have friends who have such metabolisms that make them thin no matter how much they eat (and they eat a lot). They are trying to gain weight, but it doesn't help when people continuously point out "Wow, you're so skinny, why don't you eat? That's so ugly."

Either way, acceptance is desirable. And acceptance is not promotion. It's simply accepting that there are various body types, various body shapes and various issues that make us look the way we look and that it's not particularly nice to shame people for any of those.

 

[rosac]

It's a good message, but it misses the mark by quite a bit.

I know a lot of girls that are a similar build to Rikku on the left, they exercise regularly and eat well. Seriously, she's just slim/toned and shockingly for a vidja game character doesn't have tits the size of my head whilst being ridiculously skinny.

Campaigns like this frustrate me. The majority of the realistic characters are realistic... but not ideal. The UK has put a lot of money and effort into the "This girl can" movement promoting womens sport and exercise due to the fact that it's been found that women are less likely to take part in recreational sport than men, and therefore missing out on the health/psychological/social benefits.

That is a great example of an inclusion campaign that tells women not to be ashamed of their body and engage in a healthy lifestyle. Stuff like this just seems to say "eh, it's ok to be overweight"

Finally, the other issue I have with this is that bulimic/anorexic sufferers could well look at these images and immediately compare themselves to the right hand image and see it as unattractive, which isn't exactly helpful.