Hackers Release PlayStation 3 "LV0 Decryption Keys"

[RJ 17]

It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one.

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

Well, in my country, TOS are not legally binding. Really, really far from it. And I believe that even in US it is not a certain matter( for example, jalbreaking ipods,iphones and all that its legal, even though its againts the TOS)

Oh well. I honestly didn't even mean to derail the thread as much as I did. I was just waxing philosophically by asking the question "why do hackers hack?" and then felt it necessary to point out the flaw in another person's logic when they tried to answer that question. As such, to everyone that's been discussing this with me, I'm officially moving on from this topic.

Can't say it hasn't been fun, though. :3

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

What they /do/ frequently do is tell publishers to go pound sand because their EULAs are a pile of crap.

Which is all well and good, however it does imply that were those EULA's to be allowed, they would be valid and binding. If they weren't valid and binding, then there'd be no reason to tell said publishers to pound sand due to their crappy EULA's.

At this point, I'm going to tell you what Chrono did: I've had this argument dozens of times already, and it's at the point where if I'm gonna have it again, it's gonna be in shorthand. You want the long form, feel welcome go looking through my posts. There should be plenty from around the time of the Geohot hack, although the whole consumer issues thing goes back to my very first post on the site, which was weighing in on a topic about the price of games.

 

[Andy Chalk]

It was good while it lasted. But nevermind, I still will buy the games I want. I see no use in piracy right now, after buying over 50 games on discs, and other 20 digital.

 

[ikillu87]

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

I find it odd. I used to set up people's entertainment systems back at Circuit City, and booting PS3's always involved scrolling through that giant block of text.

 

[BernardoOne]

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

I find it odd. I used to set up people's entertainment systems back at Circuit City, and booting PS3's always involved scrolling through that giant block of text.

Maybe it depends on the region? PS3 from USA may require it I guess. I am in Europe and have a PS3 and did help a friend do the first setup of his and never saw any TOS to agree with.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

At this rate, Sony should just hire these hackers as full-on firmware developers or something.

They obviously know their way around the hardware more than the actual developers.

 

[ikillu87]

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

I find it odd. I used to set up people's entertainment systems back at Circuit City, and booting PS3's always involved scrolling through that giant block of text.

Maybe it depends on the region? PS3 from USA may require it I guess. I am in Europe and have a PS3 and did help a friend do the first setup of his and never saw any TOS to agree with.

That is entirely possible.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Forget trying to stop people from running homebrew and copies its not worth the effort. Now do try and stop them from hacking shit online.

 

[ikillu87]

This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

 

[Epona]

This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

Wait, is it the current truth or is it the direction we are moving in? It can't be both because if we are already there then we can't be moving towards it.

Anyway, it isn't the truth and the only way it will be the truth is if consumers accept it and consumers should not accept it. How is it good for consumers to pay more for games and have less ownership of them?

Games going digital is irrelevant to ownership too, you can BUY something from Steam and still own it if consumers demand that. In other words, DD doesn't make ownership impossible. It just means that you own a product key which gives you access to the data. No different than owning a disc that gives you access to the data (ie, console games).

What I am really trying to say here is that the future is up to consumers. Smart consumers will say NO to this "you don't own your games" bullshit.

 

[kburns10]

This sounds like a particularly bad hack. I think since Sony is coming out with the PS4 sooner rather than later, they can shift the focus there and chalk this one up as a loss.

 

[SonOfMethuselah]

Meh... this doesn't affect us normal gamers. It just let's those hacking the PS3 to hack it even more. Which... I don't see the appeal of, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, I mean, it sort of does affect us. I mean, the constant, usually unannounced firmware updates Sony throws out are a direct attempt to counter potential pirates. The whole execrable proprietary PSV memory cards are a directed measure to counter potential pirates. Branching out a bit, intense, unfriendly DRM measures are a poorly implemented measure to counter potential prates.

What it comes down to is making gaming a little bit more inconvenient for those of us who play our games legally. That's why this is news. Sony is fighting a losing battle, and the best part is, its attempts to counter piracy are actually doing more harm to us then they're doing to the pirates. In the next console generation, Sony is going to be in deep trouble indeed if it doesn't focus on making its services better: friendlier, faster, more convenient, instead of focusing on the people - who, I'd like to point out, are really a very small minority - who are getting their products illegally.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

You just can't win this fight Sony.

Yeah, one security team can't beat hundreds (maybe thousands) of hackers all working simultaneously.

 

[Kargathia]

more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

You might have your priorities somewhat backwards here. Piracy is here to stay. The combined resources and creativity of everyone interested in hacking ensures that a "piracy-proof" game remains the stuff of legends.
Increasingly escalating your security not only spectacularly fails to keep the pirates at bay, it alienates your paying customers.

It simply comes down to either learning to adapt to people pirating your games, or going straight to the bankruptcy cliffs on a raft bathed in righteous flames.

 

[Vuliev]

I do think (and I don't want to argue this with anyone) that no one last gen even considered that they didn't own the games they bought. People should probably look back and figure out why they feel that way now. Figure out when and how they have been manipulated to give up ownership of games and hardware.

I honestly think it's a combination of the second generation of gamers that have grown up with a notable lack of hard copies of their games, that the vast majority of the populace doesn't understand copyright/patent/IP law (especially not to the level needed to effectively argue that many EULAs are complete horseshit), a peculiar influx of apathy toward fighting for one's rights (that extends far into the rest of society/politics), and the natural tendency of humans to cling to concepts they're familiar with (in this case, trying to apply physical-goods business models to digital goods and markets.)

 

[ikillu87]

This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

Wait, is it the current truth or is it the direction we are moving in? It can't be both because if we are already there then we can't be moving towards it.

Anyway, it isn't the truth and the only way it will be the truth is if consumers accept it and consumers should not accept it. How is it good for consumers to pay more for games and have less ownership of them?

Games going digital is irrelevant to ownership too, you can BUY something from Steam and still own it if consumers demand that. In other words, DD doesn't make ownership impossible. It just means that you own a product key which gives you access to the data. No different than owning a disc that gives you access to the data (ie, console games).

What I am really trying to say here is that the future is up to consumers. Smart consumers will say NO to this "you don't own your games" bullshit.

Its the truth with software that comes with the hardware.Its the truth with software from many companies for that matter. You have not refuted one thing I've said.

It is, however, not completely true of all games. Granted, it is still against the law to hack the restrictions a game comes with (this is why gamesharks/etc don't exist anymore, to which I am greatly saddened).

And once again, with Steam, breaking a TOS can indeed mean you are locked out of your account and from your games. You cannot freely give/sell them as you wish, as one does an actual disk. It is one of the reason Xbox/PS3 is so gung ho with digital distribution, in that there is no way for you to own a physical copy.

I may be rambling, I took a couple of Tylenol PM's, however, my points stand.

 

[Epona]

This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

Wait, is it the current truth or is it the direction we are moving in? It can't be both because if we are already there then we can't be moving towards it.

Anyway, it isn't the truth and the only way it will be the truth is if consumers accept it and consumers should not accept it. How is it good for consumers to pay more for games and have less ownership of them?

Games going digital is irrelevant to ownership too, you can BUY something from Steam and still own it if consumers demand that. In other words, DD doesn't make ownership impossible. It just means that you own a product key which gives you access to the data. No different than owning a disc that gives you access to the data (ie, console games).

What I am really trying to say here is that the future is up to consumers. Smart consumers will say NO to this "you don't own your games" bullshit.

Its the truth with software that comes with the hardware.Its the truth with software from many companies for that matter. You have not refuted one thing I've said.

It is, however, not completely true of all games. Granted, it is still against the law to hack the restrictions a game comes with (this is why gamesharks/etc don't exist anymore, to which I am greatly saddened).

And once again, with Steam, breaking a TOS can indeed mean you are locked out of your account and from your games. You cannot freely give/sell them as you wish, as one does an actual disk. It is one of the reason Xbox/PS3 is so gung ho with digital distribution, in that there is no way for you to own a physical copy.

I may be rambling, I took a couple of Tylenol PM's, however, my points stand.

I believe the law that says you can't crack DRM is the DMCA (1998) and there have been cheat devices since then. DS, Gamecube, PS2 come to mind. The reason we don't have cheat devices now is because internet updates can easily break them.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Security is always a losing battle. There is always someone working to break it, so you always need to be changing it. Make a better mouse trap and the mouse will get smarter. I always kind of wonder how technology would differ if we didn't have to devote a constant stream of resources into security. [sarcasm]Pirates are the reason we don't have a cure for cancer![/sarcasm]