Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

[Dismal purple]

Man, I remember back in the day before we had cisgender as a word. Referring to cis people as "straight" made the lgbt community look exclusive as hell. Not to mention that it's genuinely awkward to discuss these topics without a word for the rest of the population.

"I think that STRAIGHT people..."
"People who are not trans..."
"Non-trans"

Now I can just call them cisscum and be done with it. (I'm kidding, I'm kidding! I don't actually refer to people as cisscum)

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Man, I remember back in the day before we had cisgender as a word. Referring to cis people as "straight" made the lgbt community look exclusive as hell. Not to mention that it's genuinely awkward to discuss these topics without a word for the rest of the population.

"I think that STRAIGHT people..."
"People who are not trans..."
"Non-trans"

Now I can just call them cisscum and be done with it. (I'm kidding, I'm kidding! I don't actually refer to people as cisscum)

It beats what the LGBT community used to call Bisexuals... "Confused, selfish, jerks." Lots of progress in a short time on all fronts, if we're being honest.

I actually heard someone unironically use the term cisscum in person once, I wanted to smack the smug right off their face.

Also I know gays who still say "gay, straight, or lying" when it comes to bisexuals. I don't interact much with lesbians, because when I get outed to them they instantly turn hostile to me.

Edit: Also it's like there sectors in the LGBT community who use the term "breeder" to show their outright hatred and disdain for heterosexuals.

 

[Darkmantle]

Snip

Cishet is most often, by a wide margin I'd say, used in the pejorative sense. Further, it's a word that is used primarily on people who do not accept that label.

I understand the comparison is not the exact same but hear me out, isn't this basically why the "n-word" is such an unmentionable thing today?

Not to mention the auditory similarity of "cishet" to other pejorative words, like for example "shit".

I can already hear the counter argument, "there wasn't slavery, cishet is the majority not the minority". I understand. But I disagree that it's acceptable to do the same thing that hurt you to others. You want people to respect what you want to be called, respect what others want to be called.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Well you know all of this. I'll just say, Yes... I agree, and I've enjoyed reading this thread. It's a pleasure to see a conversation online that is more like one offline than not, with hard questions being asked and answered with respect.

This is exactly why I started this thread, that and floating around trans topics it always seems like there is a feeling of; "don't question just accept!" That isn't what the trans community really wants either, it's counter productive to stamping out fear, hate, and bigotry, it actually almost entirely halts progress when no questions are allowed. A lot of trans people from my experience want to talk about trans issues, because we want to be understood, we want to be seen as normal, sure we're different, but we're still human too.

 

[The Lunatic]

I think if you have to constantly explain how something "Isn't a slur" you might want to accept that a lot of people think it's a slur, and maybe they're right.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I think if you have to constantly explain how something "Isn't a slur" you might want to accept that a lot of people think it's a slur, and maybe they're right.

There is an arguement for that at least in principal, I'll admit that. Which begs the question of what should we do to fix this? Seriously sitting around and complaining and arguing about it isn't going to fix things. So we either need to change the vernacular use in most terms to be neutral and non-discriminatory, or we need a new fresh word to classify people with the same gender identity as their assigned birth sex. The problem though here is that the side complaining about the word as a perjorative, is not offering any help in the matter what so ever, and use it as an arguement to discriminate against transgender people often.

 

[The Philistine]

Snip

Cishet is most often, by a wide margin I'd say, used in the pejorative sense. Further, it's a word that is used primarily on people who do not accept that label.

snip

I'd throw it more on being an unfamiliar label that generally wasn't ask for because most people falling under the cis label have grown up identifying themselves as "normal". Given time and regular use, it may eventually see regular use for self-identification like "hetero".

What'll really throw a wrench in the works is "cis" phonetically sounding like shothand for "sissy". A guaranteed way to start a fight with young heterosexual males.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

Cishet is most often, by a wide margin I'd say, used in the pejorative sense. Further, it's a word that is used primarily on people who do not accept that label.

snip

I'd throw it more on being an unfamiliar label that generally wasn't ask for because most people falling under the cis label have grown up identifying themselves as "normal". Given time and regular use, it may eventually see regular use for self-identification like "hetero".

What'll really throw a wrench in the works is "cis" phonetically sounding like shothand for "sissy". A guaranteed way to start a fight with young heterosexual males.

Hell it could start a fight with young cisgender males of any sexuality, or older ones... Actually worse is calling a gay man a sissy that's a terrible insult to them generally speaking. With that out of the way MarsAtlas rightfully said:

In my experience the complaint is always that the word should be "normal" instead, so I usually ignore such complaints. Thats off topic from the general point of the thread, however.

So can we stop derailing the thread with a debate on the term cisgender please?

 

[The Lunatic]

In my experience the complaint is always that the word should be "normal" instead, so I usually ignore such complaints. Thats off topic from the general point of the thread, however.

Normal has a pretty relative meaning.

I don't take offence in discussions of sexuality that people call themselves "Normal" as a difference to my homosexuality. Minority groups such as myself are "Abnormal" on a statistical level, no amount of complaining will suddenly make "Normal" not be an applicable term to describe the majority of people.

I mean, we're talking about a matter of identity. If I can accept that males want to identify as women, and various other gender and sexual identities, it seems very hypocritical to decry those that dare to identify as "Normal".

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

In my experience the complaint is always that the word should be "normal" instead, so I usually ignore such complaints. Thats off topic from the general point of the thread, however.

Normal has a pretty relative meaning.

I don't take offence in discussions of sexuality that people call themselves "Normal" as a difference to my homosexuality. Minority groups such as myself are "Abnormal" on a statistical level, no amount of complaining will suddenly make "Normal" not be an applicable term to describe the majority of people.

I mean, we're talking about a matter of identity. If I can accept that males want to identify as women, and various other gender and sexual identities, it seems very hypocritical to decry those that dare to identify as "Normal".

Perhaps you have a valid point there. Also I personally revel in the territory of "weird" happily, but then again it's hard to be seen as "normal" when so much of my wardrobe is made up of Japanese lolita fashion. But that's beside the point.

I think if you have to constantly explain how something "Isn't a slur" you might want to accept that a lot of people think it's a slur, and maybe they're right.

Have you ever actually heard someone claim that when they're not safely anonymous? It's like most of the other "Online Only" stances... if it doesn't exist offline, why should anyone bother with you? It puts in me in mind of MRA types, but in real life they're almost inevitably marginalized losers, or just good old fashioned nuts.

I don't trust movements or types of people that can only exist online...

That's an interesting point, I've also never managed to offend someone in person by informing them that their gender identity matching the sex the were assigned at birth, makes them cisgender. I've confused some people with the term, but never outright offended anyone with it.

Now what did I just tell everyone? Please stop derailing this thread with off topic debates. This is here for people who are honestly having difficulty with understanding transgender people, and a place where they can ask questions without being judged harshly for it.

 

[Kwak]

>Can I 'explain' to that person that while the other may appear to be male/female, 'really' they're female/male? Is this considered some grave offence against their chosen identity?
Your choice of words is the clumsiest choice of words possible and generally considered offensive, yes.

Well clumsy not by choice just lack of skill in this area.
If the person who was trans was my closer friend then I would defer to their wishes and probably wouldn't even bring it up to the other person, but if the other person was a closer friend then I probably would 'clarify' the issue to them, assuming some basic competence in sensitivity on their part.

ETA - though after reading more replies I might rethink this. Plus it occurs to me that if I wasn't that close with the trans person, I probably wouldn't actually know they were trans in the first place, and if I knew they were trans that means we would be close enough that I would respect their wishes. If I knew someone was trans and we weren't close that means I only know because of rumours about them, which I wouldn't want to engage in myself (at least I would hope).

>Is a man who knows they are a man and is comfortable with that, who then decides to become a woman, different to a man who feels they are in the wrong body? (would they still be considered 'trans' if they didn't have the 'gender dysphoria' part)
The diagnostic criteria specifically mentions that you can't be doing it for ulterior reasons. There is no mention of a person doing it for literally no reason, but if they had no reason they would not be doing it so your example is highly theoretical and silly and I feel a little stupid for answering to be honest.

Fair enough, you don't have to feel stupid in telling me my question is stupid/irrelevant/too abstract, that at least helps me get a bead on things.

The recent focus on trans issues might give the impression that being trans now is different to being trans in the 70's, so someone considered trans then might not be classified as trans now, that we are now at Trans 2.0 - is this true, or is it just the same as it ever was, but people have a bit more understanding about it now?


ETA - Thanks to all the others who've answered.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Alright you guys to stop the further derailment of this thread: Here is a topic for the discussion of the term cisgender [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.875373-Poll-How-do-you-personally-feel-about-the-term-cisgender]

Now seriously take it over there.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

If you revel in being weird. Then why do you see it as such an attack when someone uses the word normal when referring to anyone non trans? Weird is usually not normal. Hell abnormal doesn't always mean something negative either. So you would get upset if I called you abnormal, but fine if I called you weird? (this is hypothetical of course, I'm not calling you weird or abnormal)

Since this question is fair enough. I get upset because it's generally a major fauxpas to refer to to someone as abnormal amongst trans and homosexual, regarding gender identity and sexuality. Weird has a similiar effect. I've had close friends reduced to tears by it, so it really makes me mad, because it does feel personal.

I'm just curious about his reasoning behind it. But if you want to answer his questions for him, maybe you can get the answer first or just let him answer it? Shocking, I know.

What you're doing is disrespectful, rude, and insulting, especially because you know I'm a transwoman and are doint it intentionally. Are you intentionally trying to make me mad or something?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

And no, I wasn't doing it intentionally. It didn't even click that I was typing he instead of she. But you know pointing out it being rude or offensive to you means absolutely nothing to me anyway, it's not exactly hard for you to get mad anyway. You blow up over anything that's remotely negative whether it's intentional or not because you're "sensitive" like it's an actual justification for throwing a fit.

Well I didn't say offensive, I said insulting, but that's pretty much semantics. Also I've been trying to get over my short fuse more lately, but I'm still pretty easy to set off on trans topic. I do go off easily on trans topics because; partly because it's a personal pet peeve, and as a vain attempt to try to show people that it's extra rough on trans people when they're insensitive. But since you don't care then the last part of this post will be for everyone else.

For everyone else: I keep for getting the number one reason misgendering transmen and transwomen is really upsetting to trans people in general. That is, getting misgendered makes trans people suddenly lose all faith that they're passing in their presentation. It even still happens to me on ocassion when my friends misgender me accidentally, it's a paranoia that all trans people tend to have, especially when we're presenting in public. That then spirals in to depressing drop in self esteem, be it temorary, or permanent, it just plain sucks when it happens.

 

[Dismal purple]

The recent focus on trans issues might give the impression that being trans now is different to being trans in the 70's, so someone considered trans then might not be classified as trans now, that we are now at Trans 2.0 - is this true, or is it just the same as it ever was, but people have a bit more understanding about it now?

No it's essentially the same. Unless you count the tumblr "I can be whatever gender I want" movement. But I hope that fades away because it distracts from people who really need help and support.

 

[Kwak]

Does it affect your work relationships, or getting employment?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Does it affect your work relationships, or getting employment?

Yes it affects relationships quite a bit, well except going out with someone who we were already came out to, but generally it affects relationships, especially with cisgender partners. It can be especially difficult with cisgender partners even after you come out, because of things like them having their own existential crisis with their sexuality, and an inability to have children together. But if both are really in love it can work out regardless.

For employmeny unfortunately there are problems, even here in the United States where it's federally illegal to discriminate against transgender people for employment. I've been passed over for jobs, that a less qualified person got, I don't know if it's because of being trans, but I'm not ruling it out. I'm pretty sure I lost a job too because of it, one of the managers was an open lesbian, who's shift I wasn't on, then she found out I was trans. Suddenly she got kinda cold to me and started acting condecending around me, soon she put me on her shift constantly, then a few months later she gave me a no cause termination. I can't be completely sure it was because I was trans, but I'm 99% positive that was it, my performance at the time was suffering, but everyone's was it was in the middle of the recession.

Anyways I hope that answers your question.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

I guess this is going to be a bit of an odd or dumb question, but it just came up in my mind.

What do you think about the grouping of transpeople with gays, lesbians, and bisexuals? As in being included in the LGBT acronym, when the first three refer to sexualities, and the trans status really doesn't?

I mean, it certainly helps to bring more attention and acceptance to a group that needs it, but it feels odd to me to include trans in the acronym when it has little to do (by my understanding) with one's sexuality. And I think it creates confusion with some folk (peered into the separate cis thread) who don't really understand that it's not really a sexuality thing and moreso an innate personal identity thing. Do you think that honest mistakes might happen fairly often because of this or do you just think it's people who weren't going to accept someone being transgender as a concept or as a reality in the first place?


I'm sorry if that question seems idiotic.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I guess this is going to be a bit of an odd or dumb question, but it just came up in my mind.

What do you think about the grouping of transpeople with gays, lesbians, and bisexuals? As in being included in the LGBT acronym, when the first three refer to sexualities, and the trans status really doesn't?

I mean, it certainly helps to bring more attention and acceptance to a group that needs it, but it feels odd to me to include trans in the acronym when it has little to do (by my understanding) with one's sexuality. And I think it creates confusion with some folk (peered into the separate cis thread) who don't really understand that it's not really a sexuality thing and moreso an innate personal identity thing. Do you think that honest mistakes might happen fairly often because of this or do you just think it's people who weren't going to accept someone being transgender as a concept or as a reality in the first place?


I'm sorry if that question seems idiotic.

Actually this is a really good question, not to mention an important topic for both sides. On the LGB side there seems to be plenty of resentment for being lumped in with transgender, and visa versa. I and a lot of trans people find it very frustrating that a lot of people think transgender is a sexuality, not an deep innate personal identity thing. I'd actually sort of like to see the Trans community break away from the LGB comunity in general, just so people can learn about us in a way that doesn't bias the discussion towards sexuality. Some people will never accept us, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up hope on the situation. When it comes right down to it, a lot of people are stuck in old ways, but it is getting better. I hope that we can get past all this personal bias and work to understand each other better, rather than keep defaulting to opinion rather than fact.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

Snip

I don't see that happening for quite a while... until the whole LGBT thing isn't really necessary to provide cover for one another, and everyone can just be L G B T, and whatever else without a movement. That's definitely on the way, but not exactly on the horizon.

The only problem with that is that L&G generally won't cover for, and are sometimes openly hostile to B&T, even today. Also having LGBT as a singular unit colors the discussion in a poor light for trans people as I've already mentioned, it gets seen as a sexuality.