Incest

[Exterminas]

That is an interesting topic!

I think incest is not morally wrong, as long as it is consensual. This can be somewhat iffy, especially between parents and children. Raising your children to enjoy incest I would consider morally wrong.

I don't think incest should be banned, at least not all kinds of incest. Sexual relationships between children and their parents could be banned, based on the previous point that they might raise their kids to be their lovers, which would be a form of nonconsensual intercourse. But any other constellation (cousins and cousins, siblings, aunts and nieces etc.) should not be banned.

Here is why:
The only remotely valid argument to ban incest, that I have come accross (feel free to correct me, if I am wrong), is that the offspring of incestual relationships have a higher chance of having genetical defects.
The problems with taking that as an excuse to ban their relationship are numerous.
First, there is the obvious, not every couple means to get children. Second, there are a lot of couples around, that have a higher chance of their children having genetical defects. Should we ban older women from getting children? How about people with genetic diseases? Should we ban their sex life too?

Yeah, Incest disgust me. But it only does that, because I was raised in a society in which incest is demonized due to some wierd social construct.

 

[zxvcasdfqwerzxcv]

I think it's disgusting and morally wrong, offspring or no. Given the situation between relatives there is often a difference in power at play, making a highly unequal, possibly coerced or manipulated relationship. Any parent that is attracted to their offspring has some serious issues, and it just screams of leading to abuse. There's plenty of Fritzl-esque cases around the world, to different degrees. All of them are shocking. The incest taboo exists for a very good genetic reason and is part of humanity on a cultural, moral and even instinctual level. Subverting it will always seem very, very unnatural to me.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Well look. Consenting adults and all that, so long as they're not creating any children...

...But I'll be frank. No, just no. It's wrong. It's warping and perverting everything that is family.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

As for people getting hurt - the chances of the kids/offspring/litter showing signs of degenerative conditions or other 'anomalies' go through the roof. It is just not a good idea.

I dont know who invented this blatent lie but its become so pervasive in our culture i applaud him for his ability to spread total fabrications to sway public opinion. Yay widespread ignorance! Whooo social agenda. Whoo the total destruction of good science.

Actual studies on this show that cousin cousin relationships produce offspring 2% more likely to have a genetic illness. If youd like sources ill provide but wikipedia gives you an asstonne and ive read them and they seem fairly sound. 40% is the figure for extremely close reletives, however that 40% doesnt apply in a flat rate. To expand you have a 40% chance of a couple EVER producing iffy offspring in an incestuous relationship but if that couple is part of the 40% it will pretty much be entirely faulty babies. Those in the 60% will likely always have healthy children. Its all to do with what faulty genes you may carry in your family tree. You see you likely carry a few faulty carrier genes fir various minor things but we have a LOT of genes and when you randomly couple the chances of your partner sharing them are fairly low. And if you do it might only be one like poor eyesight or hearing ect. However when you couple with immediate family you KNOW they will have the same genes so the chance of a double up is raised to the chance you have ANY carrier genes at all since if one exists youre almost certainly going to get a double up. If you DONT however or you inhereted different sets of carrier genes its extremely unlikely your children will be weird. The use of genetic profiling could examine this and let people know if their coupling is in the 40% or the 60%. The more you know.

These errors will not produce children with 3 heads or flippers. People always imagine really weird stuff with zero basis in reality when they picture the deformed incest babies.

You can have reasons to not like incest, i have no invested interest in it so knock yourself out. Just dont continue to pervert science by spreading this affront to real genetics based in stone age ignorance where "I think somethings bad ergo all of objective reality agrees with me!" which hideiously spirals out of control to the point where people then take this faulty reasoning and use it to support thinking the thing is bad in the firstplace. Its so dire i want to face palm. Science is mine bitches, leave social agendas out of it.

 

[gazumped]

I don't have siblings so it's harder for me to judge on a personal level if I'd be cool with it, but I never understood why falling in love with someone who you've been close to all your life was seen to be such a weird and twisted thing.

However, and a couple of people have already said something like this, I'm not down with parent/child relationships (even when the child is an adult) because there's a mis-match of power and equality there that I'm not convinced can be healthy in any relationship. It's not to do with genetics, though, even if it were an adopted child, or a relationship between a person and a family friend who had been very active in their upbringing/learning/disciplining I would not be able to condone it.

I'd like to contribute something I recently learned: Albert Einstein married his first cousin. I'm not sure if this is generally known, but I just learned about it so...

Interestingly, marrying your cousin was really really not a big deal until fairly recently. Heck, Jane Austen wrote a whole book about a lady wondering which of her cousins she should marry (which was about a hundred years before Einstein, but I'm just saying, it wasn't considered an icky or weird thing by society at large).

Even the genetic defects thing isn't an issue with first* cousins as your genes are varied enough - although it becomes an issue if you keep doing it generation after generation. Of course, this is kind of the case for breeding with people with similar genes to you in a wider sense as well, which is why mixed race kids (among humans and also mixed breed animals like cats and dogs) tend to have fewer health problems than kids of same-race couples.

So, yeah, the cousins one at least I'd say is definitely not an unnatural or icky thing, that seems to have just been something we've learned in recent decades to find gross.

*(edited for typo)

Edit:

Actual studies on this show that cousin cousin relationships produce offspring 2% more likely to have a genetic illness.

Ninja'd. >_<

 

[Hagi]

I would say yes.

I'm sure most people are imagining pair of cousins meeting for the first time at the ripe age of 19, falling desperately in love with each other but being denied that love based on societal pressures.

But let's be honest, that's not how most incest cases go. Most incest cases involve two closely related people with previous strongly hierarchical relationships that are further strengthened through pressure of the family around them. An aunt and a younger boy, a big brother by several years and a younger girl, an older cousin and a much younger one etc.

All of them cases where, because of their prior association, it's practically impossible to establish consent. Is the relationship truly mutual or is one of them using his/her position in the family to pressure the other? The other probably won't admit such, family is still family after all. In the end you end up in a fucked up situation where it's near impossible to do something about what's going on, if needed, because consent can not truly be established but neither can it be proven it's not there either.

Incest is illegal for the same reason pedophilia is. It doesn't become legal because there's this one amazingly mature 14-year old who is genuinely capable of maintaining a healthy relationship with a 30-year old. It stays illegal because there's so many 14-year olds who don't have that ability, who get pressured into things they really don't want to. Incest involves that same kind of pressure, where someone you're supposed to listen to, you're supposed to respect, is asking you to do things you may not actually want to do.

 

[Spambot 3000]

Morally wrong without offspring?: No, that's fine.
Morally wrong with offspring?: See, regardless whether the whole 'incest = baby mutants' thing is a misconception or not, chances are people in an incestuous relationship will probably not take any chances and adopt a baby or just not have kids at all. If they do, then I suppose it's kinda bad, but eh, I'm not really concerned about it.

Should it be illegal?: No.
Does it disgust me?: Well I'd never do it myself, but I don't mind some incest porn (I sort of have a fetish for some types of taboo sex and no, I already know your opinion of me know, you don't need to tell me) however this is not a bias in my decision that incest is not morally wrong ... entirely.

 

[Abomination]

I consider it a failing on behalf of either party involved for not being able to secure a romantic/love partner outside their own family where there is already a social expectation to love already.

On the flip side I am perfectly fine with them doing it provided they agree that any child that would be born with defects that place a strain on society as a whole is terminated as soon as the defects are discovered.

 

[Sansha]

I don't think incest is morally wrong, nor do I think it should be outlawed. People should be about to love, have sex with and marry whoever they please.

I do however believe incestuous relationships should not result in offspring, due to the horrific defects that generally result from inbreeding.

Source: I used to sleep with my cousin on a regular basis.

 

[Mr F.]

For a starting definition so there's no confusion

Definition of incest
noun
sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
Origin:
Middle English: from Latin incestus, incestum 'unchastity, incest', from in- 'not' + castus 'chaste'

It's from the Oxford Dictionary.

For discussion:

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

- Morally wrong? Yes.
- In the case of no possible offspring? Still wrong, yes.
- With offspring? A new level of wrong.

- Should incest be legally banned? Yes.
- Does the act of incest disgust you? Yes.

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason. Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us. Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting. Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else. Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting. The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

I mean, I can partially understand it. The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends. Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive. Finally there is the societal level to look at. Yes, technically, we should all pursue our happiness without giving a flying fuck about what society thinks. Some people frown on homosexuality, I do not think that gay couples should not exist though (That would somewhat shoot me in the foot.). However, if it ever got out that you were fucking a family member, that is not your life that has been destroyed.

That is your life, their life and every member of your families life.

This is without even properly going into the subtle power relationship and how much it would fuck things up.

TLDR;

Incest is wrong, you should never fuck your family members. Never.

 

[Strazdas]

For discussion:

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Morality is subjective. So ill give my own morality, which may or may not represent that of others.
No offspiring - ok
Offspring - no. there is no need to make offsprings with high probability of genetic mutation.

Legally banned? no. sadly it is.
It does not disgust me, however i have never experienced it, therefore my feelings are only what i think about others doing it.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Based on my morals incest is not wrong. On other people's it is.
Perfectly fine.
If it is first or second generation then perfectly fine. But if its been a couple generations of inbreeding than that is not okay because thats when the "flipper babies" start appearing.
Not at all. I'm against people trying to regulate the sex lives of others beyond cases of rape or child rape.
It does not disgust me anymore than any other kind of sex. I personally wouldn't do it (might be cuz my family is butt ugly) but if I hear other people admit to it (has happened before) my emotional and verbal response is "Oh, cool story bro".

I'm fairly open minded.

 

[Filiecs]

-Is incest morally wrong?

Don't see why it would be.

-In the case of no possible offspring?

Then there is no risk whatsoever.

-With offspring?

Biologically speaking, any negative traits in the family gene pool wouldn't be unusually likely to appear until after several generations of inbreeding. So, at first, I don't see a problem with it. However, controversy starts after the child would have an unusually high chance of inheriting a highly negative trait.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Hell no!

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Actually, no. I mean, I'm not attracted to any of my family members but I'm not disgusted by the act of incest. In fact, I find incest rather fascinating. There was once an entire town of people who's skin developed a blue tint due to a mutation in the hemoglobin in their blood. (The mutation appeared due to inbreeding) Said mutation didn't even seem to cause any serious negative health effects either.
Also, the taboo nature of it makes even more enthralling.

 

[Frungy]

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

I think you hit the nail on the head here with the offspring question. The key determinant for morality is whether there is unwanted harm to another party, or as Wendell so famously put it, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man?s nose begins.". I'm of the opinion that people can do pretty much as they like provided that they don't harm others.

Harm can come in many forms, for example the family members of those who commit suicide are harmed by the trauma of the event. In the case of incest there is a higher than normal chance of birth defects in many cases, and as such the offspring will be harmed. Furthermore society as a whole will have to bear the cost of subsidising the child's medical expenses in many countries, and so it is not a private matter, but a situation where the incestous couple knowingly engage in behaviour to the detriment of society as a whole. Under those conditions I would say that it is immoral.

Where there are no offspring, or where genetic screening is done and there is no heightened risk of birth defects, and where both paties fully consent, I have no problem with incest.

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

What right should the state have to interfere in people's sex lives if there is no societal burden? In my opinion the state (i.e. laws) are only relevant when serving the greater societal good. Thus if there are no offspring or no heightened risk of birth defects, then there is no reason for banning incest.

Does it disgust me? Its not my cup of tea, but neither are any number of sex acts that other people regularly engage in. However, provided no-one is requiring me to engage in them, and provided that sex is kept in private as it should be, then I have no issue with what anyone else gets up to in their bedroom.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

There was once an entire town of people who's skin developed a blue tint due to a mutation in the hemoglobin in their blood. (The mutation appeared due to inbreeding) Said mutation didn't even seem to cause any serious negative health effects either.
Also, the taboo nature of it makes even more enthralling.

Wow, really? Thats pretty cool
Incest or no isn't genetics just amazing?

 

[The Ubermensch]

This thread is going to end well.

-Is incest morally wrong?

Nope.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Nope.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Yeah but provided no one is getting hurt it is none of my business.

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to this sort of stuff.

This is my view as well. Though from a medical standpoint, I would recommend genetic counselling for heterosexual couples who might run the risk of being pregnant, just as it is recommended for couples who have a risk of passing on genetic conditions on their offspring.

I'm on this boat in theory; though I have Brocon sisters and not all of their dogs bark if you know what I mean.

I'm not going to say that all incestuous relationships between brothers and sisters are messed up, just if I ever said yes I'd probably have a Yandere harem on my hands

I think it must be something to do with being related to perfection yet society telling you your uncontrollable love is wrong.

 

[StormShaun]

Just about everyone likes the idea of a threeway with twins.

Not me, honestly I prefer one on one ... what am I talking about!?
But yeah, I wouldn't like that situation, they would fight over you. :/

OT:

-Is incest morally wrong?

In all honesty, I am Christian but I view everything with my own sense of morals.
Is it wrong, nope ... love is a crazy, wacky thing which we can't control most of the time.

And also I can't do anything if it happens. I don't have the rite to disturb that.
I'll let you humans do what you want ... unless it's opening a door to Hell or Heaven and then we have a problem. (Get back on topic Shaun!)

-In the case of no possible offspring?

As I said before ... nope.

-With offspring?

As other people said, as long as they make sure there is nothing going to be wrong with said child.
And adoption could stop anything bad.

-Should incest be legally banned?

That would be pretty unfair I guess.
Though I can't say.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

For me ... nope.
Though when I think about me being in a relationship with that ... like most people.
Creepy.

Though I can't stop myself if something like that happened.

tldr:

I have no problem with incest with neither children or not. (Only if they make sure it will be medically fine)
I shouldn't be banned.
It doesn't disgust me and it slightly creeps me out. Though if I can't say crap.
Love is a thing we cannot control.

On another note I must say ... I liked the title name.
It just puts the topic out there and leaves many questions.
*claps*

 

[Joccaren]

-Is incest morally wrong?

No such thing as morally wrong. No universal moral code, nothing can be universally wrong. By my own personal code its not wrong so long as it isn't being abused and both parties fairly consent.

-In the case of no possible offspring?

See above.

-With offspring?

Depends on how close family it is. Brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son - probably shouldn't have children. High chance of birth defects. Close aunts/uncles and cousins I also feel that same way about. Things like your mother's mother's sister's grandaughter or W/E I don't see as much of a problem with, though its still better to be cautious.
More to the point I'm not against the idea of them having children, just that they have to take full responsibility for the fact that their kid will have deformities, and do everything in their power to make sure that this fact doesn't impair them, or does to as little extent as possible. This means no expensive cars or W/E, that money goes into any medical surgery or W/E that could benefit your kid. Anything less is not enough IMO.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Nope. Really I don't think many things that aren't encompassed by "Don't be a dick" should be illegal, but W/E.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Not really. An exploitative incest where its non-voluntary or heavily coerced for one party, making it rape really, disgusts me, but two people that love each other I have no problems with getting together, no matter what their relation to each other is.

 

[The Ubermensch]

'm on this boat in theory; though I have Brocon sisters and not all of their dogs bark if you know what I mean.

I'm not going to say that all incestuous relationships between brothers and sisters are messed up, just if I ever said yes I'd probably have a Yandere harem on my hands

[pic]

I think it must be something to do with being related to perfection yet society telling you your uncontrollable love is wrong.

Are they at least hot? [creepy grin]

We need to know this. For science purposes. Yes.

Kinda... I mean they are my sisters. They might not think of me in that way but I think of them that way.

Spoiler: And all I get is this

 

[Entitled]

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason. Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us. Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting. Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else. Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting. The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

Well, that *is* pretty arguable.

Evolutionary psychology is quite a faulty source for morality. Your brain might be hardwired to find incest disturbing, but it's also hardwired to find people who are visibly different from your own monkey tribe revolting. Hence, racism. Also, to find sex between different monkey tribes revolting. Hence, interracial sex taboos. You are hardwired to always agree with the alpha male, to ensure the survival of your tribe.
Also, you are hardwired to find the most fertile, youngest post-pubescent teenage girls the most attractive. Hence, ephebophilia.

We are living in a civilization now, we ought to think past these stupid remnants that don't necessarily make sense any more, not encourage them.

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends. Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive. Finally there is the societal level to look at. Yes, technically, we should all pursue our happiness without giving a flying fuck about what society thinks. Some people frown on homosexuality, I do not think that gay couples should not exist though (That would somewhat shoot me in the foot.). However, if it ever got out that you were fucking a family member, that is not your life that has been destroyed.

That's not a biological problem, but a social one. The idea that a relationship where you are bumping uglies is somehow more likely to "get fucked up" than one where you don't, is entirely caused by sex taboos.

It's a bit like saying that we shouldn't allow gays to adopt children, because they would be bullied in school for it.

Which is technicaly true, but there is no fundamental reason for it to be that way to begin with, so it's a problem to be solved, not a barrier. Rather than limiting ourselves, it's more moral to create a world where gay parents' children don't get bullied, even if it's harder.