Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

sanquin

New member
Jun 8, 2011
1,837
0
0
The stereotype of guys that are 'nice guys' just to get laid is bogus, imo. Something made up by people that aren't 'nice guys' themselves.

The stereotype of 'nice guys' that complain about girls favouring 'douchebags' over 'nice guys' does happen a lot though. I mean, I do notice a trend that 'nice guys' tend to have more problems finding a girlfriend. At least at younger ages. But I doubt that has much to do with being a 'nice guy', and more with not being outgoing and confident.
 

TotalerKrieger

New member
Nov 12, 2011
376
0
0
The problem I have with the "abused nice guy" stereotype is that the problems they encounter can apply to women as well as men.
The whole "friend-zone" issue suffered by nice guys is just a common result of chasing after someone who most likely isn't physically attracted to you. Gender really isn't a significant factor, IMO. Looking around a university lecture hall or cafeteria, you can often see less than attractive women fawning over attractive men who look like they would barely give them the time of day.
If you exemplify the characteristics of a "nice guy" and the other party is attracted to you then you are very likely to enter a relationship. If the other party is not attracted to you, then they will most likely only want a platonic relationship, and for many people this is where all the resentment and miscommunication takes place.

It is possible that men are more likely to become friend-zoned due to socialization/culture (in television or film there are so many fat ugly male characters paired up with attractive women) or that men are more likely to have sex with female friends who they aren't all that attracted to because well...many men have very variable standards when it comes to sex.

As young adults, many people have lots of opportunities for sex and/or relationships. Thus, attractive men and women are not usually going to bother getting to know someone if they are not instantly attracted to them. People are self-interested and life is not fair at all. If the really pretty girl has friend-zoned you and you feel emotionally used or whatever, cut ties and find someone else who is more worth your time and energy rather than whining like a child. Men are subject to whatever behavioral programming exists in our genome as much as women, so stop complaining about how all the hot girls in their 20's only date/screw the d-bags who treat them like shit. Additionally, guys who make such claims often only observe the small sub-section of women who draw their attention (ie. the ones they find most attractive). Most women find the d-bag alpha-male types as abhorrent as you do, you just haven't noticed what with being so outraged at the supposed hypocrisy of the female gender.

Lastly, I find many of my "nerdy" male friends and acquaintances have a very warped perception of women's beauty standards. ie. If a woman is not physically perfect in their eyes, she is not worth dating. Many of these guys are not stunning themselves, in fact they are often fat, unkempt or ugly. My suggestion to such men is to lower your standards or work on improving your attractiveness in the unlikely event you meet that perfect match someday. Of course many of these guys do neither, resulting in them turning into bitter little misogynists with a chip on their shoulder.
 

bunnielovekins

New member
Mar 1, 2013
39
0
0
Callate said:
Okay, so... Married, here. Nothing to prove. Not looking. Bear that in mind in what I'm about to say.

I do not doubt that the stereotypical "nice guy" who is code for "thinking that being 'nice' ought to get you laid" actually exists. To indulge in further stereotyping, men are often mechanical thinkers; the whole "if 'x', then 'y', if not 'y', why not" thing is very much in a lot of men's wheelhouse, so to speak.

That said, I think the whole "nice guys are really jerks just acting nice trying to get laid" gets thrown about, and the sentiments put in the mouths of people complaining about being overlooked, way too often.

Some men are genuinely nice, and that doesn't deprive them of the right to be frustrated. Some men are hoping for something more than just sex, and they don't deserve to be turned into leering wolves by others' supposition.

And... And here's where someone is probably going to want to hand me my head... A lot of these "nice guys" aren't frustrated because their bottom-rung "niceness" isn't getting them in the door with the guy who's nice and good looking and confident and rich, etc.

They're frustrated because while they're nice, they're watching the object of their affections sigh after some boorish prick who treats them like dirt.
Discounting the latter part of the post (not that I disagree), I used to be in this position. This was school, mind you, about 8 years ago, and now I'm moved on with a nice long-term relationship so again no ball in this court. I was shy and awkward and depressed, and presumed my depression came from my loneliness, and my shame at being an 18 year old who'd never had a relationship let alone a proper kiss. I made the mistake of listening to the two worst sources possible: my mother and my (very few) female friends. So, being told that ladies wanted a kind, caring, sensitive gentleman, I figured that by being exactly that (read: how I am anyway) I would sooner or later be met with romantic success.

Of course, I wasn't. The problem was that they were telling me what societal pressures expected them to say (social acceptability bias), as opposed to telling me what women would go for in reality. After a few years I stopped being a gentleman, stopped suppressing my inner depressive douchebag, and funnily enough started a fairly eventful and pretty happy love life. Not that it helped with the whole depression thing.

So, in my opinion "Nice guys" are essentially just young, inexperienced, and devoid of any self esteem. They've been told to be a certain thing, and because they really don't believe in what anyone could see in their own personality, they'll try to be it.
That's not to say there aren't assholes who are simply trying a more passive-aggressive approach, but don't always assume the worst, they might just be immature and inexperienced.

My advice for anyone in the friend zone: let your inner asshole shine through. We all are, at least a bit, so stop being a gentleman and hiding it and act like they aren't women at all, and sooner or later nice things will happen.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Hixy said:
Well I have heard many many girls say how they don't go for looks. ''I just want someone fun who can make me laugh''. Same girls then trail after built men regardless of if they are decent or not. They over look guys who are fun and do make them laugh because they are not muscular and good looking. Maybe you are just honest about it most girls aren't.

Captcha: ''love is blind'' . . . . . apparently not
I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.
 

sageoftruth

New member
Jan 29, 2010
3,417
0
0
The Rogue Wolf said:
Tarfeather said:
Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?
Neither. From my viewpoint, what's being talked about is how some men expect that showing a woman basic decency should be rewarded with a free pass into her panties- sort of like expecting a trophy for not randomly punching people in the face as you walk down the street. It's one thing to be a good person to others, but entirely another to believe you're owed something for your "effort". It's a misogynistic view that states that women are inherently unworthy of being treated decently and should "put out" from sheer gratitude if a man deigns to do so.

As for the fedora thing, that's plain ol' stereotyping. "Only X would wear Y, so anyone who wears Y is obviously X."
Well said. Reminds me of the time Chris Rock was bashing guys who want to be rewarded for doing things they're "Supposed to do". Loved that one. I suppose it's harder to be decent if you're a certain kind of person, but I wouldn't want to date anyone like that.

Also kudos for the fedora thing. I pretty much divorced a portion of the internet's websites (like cracked or memebase) for propagating such stereotypes (and in-turn making me feel ambivalence for fedora-wearers). It's amazing what extended exposure to it can do to one's perception of the real world.
 

sageoftruth

New member
Jan 29, 2010
3,417
0
0
Phasmal said:
Hixy said:
Well I have heard many many girls say how they don't go for looks. ''I just want someone fun who can make me laugh''. Same girls then trail after built men regardless of if they are decent or not. They over look guys who are fun and do make them laugh because they are not muscular and good looking. Maybe you are just honest about it most girls aren't.

Captcha: ''love is blind'' . . . . . apparently not
I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.
Definitely. People who complain about that stuff need to try and recall the last time they asked an unattractive person out.
 

Keiichi Morisato

New member
Nov 25, 2012
354
0
0
as someone who really is a "nice guy" this is starting to explain high school a lot? though my motivation isn't to get into a girls pants, i have legitimate concern for my friends, most of whom tend to female, granted i am just trying to be a good friend and i show the same amount of concern to my male friends. the reason i am like the nice guy is because growing up i didn't have friends, i would get bullied a lot, so i would imagine the kind of friend i would want, and try to emulate that imaginary friend, because i didn't want to become like my bullies and i wanted to be there for anyone who was in my situation. i would hate to know that my nice guy attitude is being mistaken as a ploy to get in a girls pants.
 

Keiichi Morisato

New member
Nov 25, 2012
354
0
0
sageoftruth said:
Phasmal said:
Hixy said:
Well I have heard many many girls say how they don't go for looks. ''I just want someone fun who can make me laugh''. Same girls then trail after built men regardless of if they are decent or not. They over look guys who are fun and do make them laugh because they are not muscular and good looking. Maybe you are just honest about it most girls aren't.

Captcha: ''love is blind'' . . . . . apparently not
I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.
Definitely. People who complain about that stuff need to try and recall the last time they asked an unattractive person out.
done that, my last tow girlfriends weren't all that attractive, but i was fine with it, because i care about creating an emotional connection rather than a physical one.
 

Rangerboy87

New member
Jul 1, 2011
182
0
0
eatenbyagrue said:
I read an article on Cracked.com a few years back that talks about why the whole "nice guy" thing doesn't work. The long and short of it is that "nice" is something you are expected to be: it's not particularly difficult, or requires too much effort. Especially when courting a girl, who has hundreds of guys being nice to her every day, except some of them have something extra to offer: one guy is nice, but he also has a PhD and teaches high-level math at the university, or this other guy is nice, but can bench press his own weight and would look nice with his arm draped around her. Basically, saying "I'm a nice guy" is the baseline. It's the bare minimum of what's expected if you want to exist in a civilized world.
And you hit it right on the nose.

I would describe part of my personality as a nice guy, but not my central characteristic. I am nice in the sense that I try to be gentleman to all women, not just ones I have an interest in. I go beyond that for someone I like (I'm married now, so this is all moot). But I say it's not a central characteristic because I was taught to be that way. My parents would have killed me if they saw me act like a jerk to a woman.

Being nice isn't a perk, it's a requirement. Besides, true nice guys are nice enough to not be pushing to bed a girl. He waits patiently for her to be ready if she's interested.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Keiichi Morisato said:
done that, my last tow girlfriends weren't all that attractive, but i was fine with it, because i care about creating an emotional connection rather than a physical one.
Were you not attracted to them?

I'm not talking about the standard of attractiveness as set by normal society or anything, I'm talking about them giving you specifically the downstairs green light.

Even if you were NOT attracted to them, which is a little weird- emotional connections and physical connections are not mutually exclusive.
 

Keiichi Morisato

New member
Nov 25, 2012
354
0
0
Phasmal said:
Keiichi Morisato said:
done that, my last tow girlfriends weren't all that attractive, but i was fine with it, because i care about creating an emotional connection rather than a physical one.
Were you not attracted to them?

I'm not talking about the standard of attractiveness as set by normal society or anything, I'm talking about them giving you specifically the downstairs green light.

Even if you were NOT attracted to them, which is a little weird- emotional connections and physical connections are not mutually exclusive.
sorry, i assumed by normal societal standards?
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Keiichi Morisato said:
sorry, i assumed by normal societal standards?
Don't worry about it, probably should have clarified better.

Oh, I'm gonna add in a few lines to avoid low content:
I don't much follow societies rules of attractiveness myself and get attracted to a range of people rather than the society approved Ken-doll type.
 

Vegosiux

New member
May 18, 2011
4,381
0
0
Rangerboy87 said:
Being nice isn't a perk, it's a requirement. Besides, true nice guys are nice enough to not be pushing to bed a girl. He waits patiently for her to be ready if she's interested.
Well, that's the thing. This "waiting patiently for her to be ready" is actually right in the middle of the problem, because of the assumption that "it has to happen eventually". But then it doesn't, the nice guy gets frustrated and goes on a generic nice guy rant.

Phasmal said:
I don't think most girls are being dishonest.
On the contrary to that one, I think everyone is being dishonest to a degree, for the sake of "keeping up appearances". As it stands in our society, going "I'll only date people I find attractive" makes you look shallow and crude, no matter your gender, so there's some sugar-coating going on.

And if we're talking about the "instant attraction" kind of thing, then physical attraction is pretty much the only thing you've got going for yourself, since you can't tell a person's hobbies or whether or not they're an asshole by looking at them.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.
The looks will ultimately tip the scales, all other things being equal, no way around that. Luckily there's no accounting for taste, so there's no such thing as an universal measure of "attractiveness" as far as an individual is concerned (I do realize there are physical traits as a society we tend to consider more attractive than others).

But since looks are the first thing you notice, "all other things being equal" doesn't apply because at that moment you simply know nothing about them. Note that I'm including "non-verbal body communication" under looks here, for simplicity's sake (as in, it's something you see with your eyes, without actually exchanging a word).

I'll just, a little tangentially, throw in that I still haven't figured out the difference between "a date" and "two people spending time together"; which I find might be another problem. Guys often tend to think that "a date" is a whole otherworldly experience, some sort of a "ritual".
 

Mr Fixit

New member
Oct 22, 2008
929
0
0
Well not a whole lot I can add to this...

I'd say most of the people I know think I'm this "Nice Guy" thing because I actually do quite a few things for a woman I know. I've watched her kids, helped her move, bought her things & all that other stuff. I've literally been the shoulder to cry on many times & she has trusted me with secrets that most people would take to the grave, but I honestly have no interest in being anything other than her friend. She's beautiful & generally an amazing woman & we have lots of fun when we are together, but I could not be in a relationship with her. Everytime I tell people I'm doing something for her or hanging out with her I just know that they all think I'm trying to get in her pants. Oh well I really don't care what people think.

I hope that isn't too far off topic.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Vegosiux said:
Phasmal said:
I don't think most girls are being dishonest.
On the contrary to that one, I think everyone is being dishonest to a degree, for the sake of "keeping up appearances". As it stands in our society, going "I'll only date people I find attractive" makes you look shallow and crude, no matter your gender, so there's some sugar-coating going on.

And if we're talking about the "instant attraction" kind of thing, then physical attraction is pretty much the only thing you've got going for yourself, since you can't tell a person's hobbies or whether or not they're an asshole by looking at them.
That sounds pretty bizarre to me. I don't see anything wrong with dating only people you are attracted to- isn't that part of the point of dating? `Shallow` or not.

Vegosiux said:
Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.
The looks will ultimately tip the scales, all other things being equal, no way around that. Luckily there's no accounting for taste, so there's no such thing as an universal measure of "attractiveness" as far as an individual is concerned (I do realize there are physical traits as a society we tend to consider more attractive than others).

But since looks are the first thing you notice, "all other things being equal" doesn't apply because at that moment you simply know nothing about them. Note that I'm including "non-verbal body communication" under looks here, for simplicity's sake (as in, it's something you see with your eyes, without actually exchanging a word).
Well, similarly, looks will probably give you a leg up initially.
You probably wont be interested in getting to know someone better (in a dating sense) if you aren't attracted to them all. I don't see how that would make someone a bad person.
Vegosiux said:
I'll just, a little tangentially, throw in that I still haven't figured out the difference between "a date" and "two people spending time together"; which I find might be another problem. Guys often tend to think that "a date" is a whole otherworldly experience, some sort of a "ritual".
A date is when you both agree it's a date I guess.
The only person I go on dates with is already my boyfriend so I'm not much help there.
 

Buckshaft

New member
Jan 12, 2014
93
0
0
This is an AMERICAN thing. Seriously. I can't stress enough how I have never seen anyone like this, and I have been around. I used to believe in it, for sure. I read a whole bunch of crap online about the Friendzone, fedoras, shit like that... I swallowed the whole damn thing. I didn't know how stupid I was being until I actually started to get out more, and here's what I learned.

In Ireland, where I'm from, the only people who use the phrase "Friendzone" Are 14-16 year old girls on facebook statuses. Guys wearing fedoras are not these mythical "Nice guys" Who pretend to be nice for some entitlement of sex, or however you want to phrase it. In fact, rarely would you ever see a fedora in real life. One of the few guys who I've seen with one on gets the same bus as me, and I started talking to him about the whole thing. He said it was ridiculous and he wore it because he liked hats.

Before you all jump on top of me, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that guys like this stereotype don't exist, I'm sure they do. I'm just saying it's a matter of getting a wider perspective, and not judging everyone you meet by the experiences of a few random strangers on the internet you'll never meet. Sometimes, that's all it is. a stereotype. Get over yourself and learn to look at people based on their individual merits.
 

Vegosiux

New member
May 18, 2011
4,381
0
0
Phasmal said:
That sounds pretty bizarre to me. I don't see anything wrong with dating only people you are attracted to- isn't that part of the point of dating? `Shallow` or not.
I agree it's bizarre. Or maybe it's just that "I want a guy/girl with similar hobbies, interests, and a witty sense of humor, but I'm only going to give a chance to good-looking ones" sounds a bit odd, because it makes it sound that while you want X, you'll base your decision on Y, which might confuse people, or something.

What I'm talking about, though, is that if you're straight with "Yeah, I'm going to go for the good-looking ones" you're going to be met with adversity, called "shallow", "a *****/dick", or accused of objectifying the other gender because "what, is that all they are to you"?

Again, there's nothing wrong with not being attracted to people you're not attracted to. There just seems to be some kind of social illusion at work that states there's something wrong with it. Just an observation on my part, really. As you said, bizarre.

Well, similarly, looks will probably give you a leg up initially.
You probably wont be interested in getting to know someone better (in a dating sense) if you aren't attracted to them all. I don't see how that would make someone a bad person.
It wouldn't. But there seems to be enough frustration with rejections among people of all walks of life that it kind of got distilled into that illusion I mentioned up there.

But you got it right on the "leg up". To put it in gaming terms, I suppose it's a bit of a "level one" thing. No matter how hard you'd destroy "level two" once you enter it, no use if you can't get past the first one.

A date is when you both agree it's a date I guess.
The only person I go on dates with is already my boyfriend so I'm not much help there.
Sounds a bit self-serving (as in, to the expression, not the people involved). But, no matter, really. Just one of those things I don't quite get I suppose.

People can call it "dates" all they want, I'll just have fun spending time with someone I enjoy spending time with and not beat myself up over linguistics ^^
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
tippy2k2 said:
OT: You're basically describing everyone's favorite topic "The Friend Zone", which technically exists but not in the "Oh whoa is me, the girl of my dreams doesn't realize how much I love her" and more "I keep doing nice things for this girl, why doesn't she want to bounce on my pogo-stick like the movies say she should!?!! What a tease!".

For the most part, I've noticed people who complain about that zone are some of the more pathetic people I've met. They either:

A. Truly believe that being nice to someone is the only criteria needed to get the lady to wet their whistle. When it's demonstrated that it takes a little more than being nice, they have a hissy fit.

B. They're allowing themselves to be walked on by someone who's making them dance like a puppet.

B is a bit more forgivable since they might not realize the lady is manipulating the hell out of him (even if it's obvious to everyone else around him) but it's still at least a little pathetic...

(Also note, ladies can complain about the Friend-Zone)

The Friend Zone, one of the most annoying topics/memes/youname it in the internet. I'm just glad my formative years were before I had broadband internet, because I probably would have been rather receptive this bullshit.

But if you chase after girls that are considerably more attractive then yourself, chances are you'll be rejected. If you're friendly but kinda boring, chances are you'll be rejected. And let's face it, that's kinda true for many nerds - we're not a populace that's known for being overly outgoing, charming, physically active, and so on. And of course chances are that you're not as nice as you think you are, but come across as kinda creepy, needy, ass-kissing or something along those lines. Yea and of course there are also plenty of people who will take advantage of you if you're doing everything for them they want, but that's certainly not a behaviour unique to women.
Maybe I'm just projecting here, but at least all of that was true for my teen years, and I don'T think I'm unique.

But this friend zone bullshit, that's the worth. So I went to college. So I met a lot of girls there and became friends with them. Am I supposed to want to bone them all? Would any of them had had the right to get mad at me for not wanting to bone her even though she was "so nice" to me? Not really. And neither would I. And in fact I wasn't, because I didn't had this notion that like just being helpful with difficult statistics coursework or something would entitle to sex with her. Whatever ulterior motives I might have had at times. It's absurd.
 

Piorn

New member
Dec 26, 2007
1,097
0
0
Here in germany, we say "nice is shit's little sister!" ("Nett ist die kleine Schwester von Scheiße!")
It means, "nice" is the adjective you use if you can't think of anything positive to say.

Figured I'd just throw that in, since this topic has propably been discussed to death.
 

Rangerboy87

New member
Jul 1, 2011
182
0
0
Vegosiux said:
Rangerboy87 said:
Being nice isn't a perk, it's a requirement. Besides, true nice guys are nice enough to not be pushing to bed a girl. He waits patiently for her to be ready if she's interested.
Well, that's the thing. This "waiting patiently for her to be ready" is actually right in the middle of the problem, because of the assumption that "it has to happen eventually". But then it doesn't, the nice guy gets frustrated and goes on a generic nice guy rant.
When I wrote that, I was implying the feeling was mutual from her. Obviously if she shows no interest, you move on. That's the point I was making: being a nice guy isn't a foolproof plan or a plan at all. It is how a man should act. Everything else should determine if there is a connection.