Jimquisition: Gamer Guys

[Callate]

Is this still a thing?

I mean, I'm not pretending all the ill will and insular attitudes in some (not all) groups of male gamers went away overnight, but I had kind of gotten the impression that maybe the worst offenders had at least gotten the idea that complaining about "fake girl gamers" was a non-starter that wasn't going to score them points with anyone but a very small choir (of the "preaching to" variety.) And pretty much everyone else was going to say, "Oh, are we issuing membership cards now? Should I have a resume handy? Do you think you have particular qualifications by which you can include yourself and your friends and exclude anyone with an extra "x" chromosome willy-nilly"?

I get the point, it just feels like this was odd timing for an entire episode on the subject. Am I wrong? Have there been recent events suggesting this attitude is still widely prevalent? I'm not asking rhetorically; it seems from where I stand that this hasn't been front-and-center for a while. I could certainly be wrong.

 

[IkeGreil29]

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What do gamer girls want? I cannot speak for them all, but largely the same thing gamer guys want, and often get as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Girls and gamer guys are two sides of the same gamer coin. Gamer Girls are people just like gamer guys. They're all as diverse as the other.

Your example about metalheads works well.

Personally I don't see the problem about games being widely accepted either, but that doesn't change the fact that people are actively being excluded, and there's people that support that exclusion which does cause problems. To say the least they aren't helping the image of the gamer improve.

A part of the negative associations with being a gamer won't go away, though. That part is the angry belligerent gamer. They use other gamers to vent on, and troll. They do this because there's not much that can be done in retalliation.v It's a sad fact of things that won't change until humanity does.

It's one thing to be dubious about the women that shunned them. It's another matter entirely to be dubious of women one just met, haven't met, and/or never will meet. That's just discriminating based on gender, to put it gently.
One one hand reactions like that are human nature to not be fond of what caused hurt. I get that.
On the other, one can always strive to rise above hating the many for the crimes of the few, or at least act like they have.

I want games to be able to be part of someone's identity, certainly; I don't want gamer to become anyone who has played Angry Birds and Bejeweled. But I think movies went through a similar thing. They were at first mostly appreciated by certain people and have become one of the most popular things to do socially now. But there's still a boatload of movies that are made more for the people that like the intricacies of film. Much like that, I feel that games like Dark Souls and other more niche titles will be what "separates" people. Those titles have something to talk about though, unlike the constant regurgitation of similar titles that surround it. Kitsch movies are needed; sometimes you want to indulge in a Michael Bay style stupid film, just like sometimes an FPS is what will satisfy your gaming urge. Indie games are asking questions about gameplay and pushing the boundaries of it like indie films often do. They aren't the same, games and movies, but they're the newest form of media and I find it easier to compare them because of that.

Beligerent gamers I can handle. What I can't is the constant jokes made at the expense of the medium simply because of stupid associations.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

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What do gamer girls want? I cannot speak for them all, but largely the same thing gamer guys want, and often get as far as I'm concerned. Gamer Girls and gamer guys are two sides of the same gamer coin. Gamer Girls are people just like gamer guys. They're all as diverse as the other.

Your example about metalheads works well.

Personally I don't see the problem about games being widely accepted either, but that doesn't change the fact that people are actively being excluded, and there's people that support that exclusion which does cause problems. To say the least they aren't helping the image of the gamer improve.

A part of the negative associations with being a gamer won't go away, though. That part is the angry belligerent gamer. They use other gamers to vent on, and troll. They do this because there's not much that can be done in retalliation.v It's a sad fact of things that won't change until humanity does.

It's one thing to be dubious about the women that shunned them. It's another matter entirely to be dubious of women one just met, haven't met, and/or never will meet. That's just discriminating based on gender, to put it gently.
One one hand reactions like that are human nature to not be fond of what caused hurt. I get that.
On the other, one can always strive to rise above hating the many for the crimes of the few, or at least act like they have.

I want games to be able to be part of someone's identity, certainly; I don't want gamer to become anyone who has played Angry Birds and Bejeweled. But I think movies went through a similar thing. They were at first mostly appreciated by certain people and have become one of the most popular things to do socially now. But there's still a boatload of movies that are made more for the people that like the intricacies of film. Much like that, I feel that games like Dark Souls and other more niche titles will be what "separates" people. Those titles have something to talk about though, unlike the constant regurgitation of similar titles that surround it. Kitsch movies are needed; sometimes you want to indulge in a Michael Bay style stupid film, just like sometimes an FPS is what will satisfy your gaming urge. Indie games are asking questions about gameplay and pushing the boundaries of it like indie films often do. They aren't the same, games and movies, but they're the newest form of media and I find it easier to compare them because of that.

Beligerent gamers I can handle. What I can't is the constant jokes made at the expense of the medium simply because of stupid associations.

Unspoken, unenforced divisions can be had pretty readily. You can take pride in the fact that you played games others haven't, but when you persecute those who haven't for whatever reasons, then the problem arises.

You're free to be dissapointed that others haven't taken an interest in what you have. You're free to disagree with what they have taken interest in, but it stops being okay when you start kicking people in the teeth over it. To be tolerated, you must be tolerable, and that means tolerating others.
At the worst, if you disagree with others, then just don't associate with them, and have no hard feelings, and get away before the hard feelings can arise.

Your identity is your own, just like as other's identities are there. It's a bit old fashioned, but treat peope the way you want to be treated.

As far as the whole problem with being seen in a negative light is that the people outside of that light are often in the dark. They lack information, and it'll take more than a few people saying "That bad rep is undeserved!" while keeping the people that are to be convinced are kept out, and/or mistreated.

 

[Miroluck]

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The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers,
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Well, you have to monitor your own people. If you don't, you're gonna end up with an equivalent of the TvTropes forum. So, in a way, they are affected.

And if you're going to monitor your own people, you should be prepared to police your own people. If you're gate keeping, but not taking account the trouble makers you already let in, then, well, it's a bad thing, isn't it?
The bad people will ruin the rep of your own people, and the people turned away certainly won't be able to help clean up the rep, will they? They'll be on the outside, looking in, remembering the monitors that treated them poorly, and see the loudest, most obnoxious, most noticeable of your own people, and largely unable to see the rest.

Well, policing it is then. About time we deport all the douchebags out, and it should be done regardless of gatekeeping part.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

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The sort of gamer that excludes others vehemently, even though they aren't directly affected by newcomers,
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Well, you have to monitor your own people. If you don't, you're gonna end up with an equivalent of the TvTropes forum. So, in a way, they are affected.

And if you're going to monitor your own people, you should be prepared to police your own people. If you're gate keeping, but not taking account the trouble makers you already let in, then, well, it's a bad thing, isn't it?
The bad people will ruin the rep of your own people, and the people turned away certainly won't be able to help clean up the rep, will they? They'll be on the outside, looking in, remembering the monitors that treated them poorly, and see the loudest, most obnoxious, most noticeable of your own people, and largely unable to see the rest.

Well, policing it is then. About time we deport all the douchebags out, and it should be done anyway.

Good luck playing bouncer against all the bad elements, douchebags, and the sort of your people. I mean that sincerely.
Personally I'm convinced it's impossible to get rid of them due to human nature.

Still, we all fight our battles how we think we should.

 

[qeinar]

I just love how Jim talks about nipples with Jonathan Holmes playing Wii U on a background.

Pretty fitting footage if you ask me. The video needs more mention of anus though.

 

[Carrots_macduff]

i was hoping this would be 12 pages of people saying "Jonathan Holmes' anus"

*sigh*

 

[Something Amyss]

Thing is, if you want to point out the stupidity of other "way of thinking", people tend to chose the most extreme cases.

And when one side has prevalent "extremes" and the other doesn't, that's false equivalence. That's not to say they don't exist, but trying to take the piss on a small group to show the other side of the intolerance of the mainstream looks inane and hypocritical.

Well, our culture hasn't exactly been known for social aptness, particularly around women. We do have extremely anti-social or just plain awkward members in our ranks.

Well, a couple problems there:

1. This isn't the same culture anymore. Whether or not you (or anyone else) likes it, video games have developed into a much larger community.

2. This is at the same time we're seeking legitimacy from the mainstream. And since you think women should expect gamers to behave like hostile basement-dwelling manchildren, I expect you agree that gamers should at the same time expect to be treated as hostile, basement-dwelling manchildren. I mean, it's only reasonable, right? I hope you've never been one of those folks to act like we should have legitimacy.

But do you generally have evidence that our culture as a whole is particularly anti-female gamer?

Numbered again for my sanity:

1. You just spent two paragraphs excusing, explaining and justifying a behaviour you don't believe is actually prevalent?

2. Examples have been given frequently, including this thread. I'm always wary of people who ask for evidence after evidence has been given. Perhaps you really did just saunter into the thread, but it seems suspect. Especially when you're already making excuses for the behaviour.

I'd also attest that the continuation of this thread largely hinges on such a mentality. I'm not sure what else people are protesting. Well, most people. Some people seem to be trying to skirt it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Knew that one was gonna bite me on the ass, should've clarified. She's never really made an effort to say that she liked gaming, if you know what I mean.[/quote]

Since she HAS done as such, I'm assuming you mean "I haven't actually watched her TVW videos but I hate her anyway, likely for reasons that I heard someone say and accepted wholly without any attempt at verification." In fact, you seem to be endemic of the problem being discussed at this point.

If I'm wrong, of course, please clarify. However, it's hard to believe you actually watched her videos and took that away.

The most notable example of this was that whole thing with her calling out Bastion for sexism because she ignored a big part of the game where most of the character development happened.

Haven't played the game, but even descriptions from sites about the game offer very little to make me think Anita is wrong. It also doesn't look as though she has to "ignore a big part of the game." Isn't most of her development missable? Again, if I'm wrong, feel free to clarify, but I've looked at a couple dozen pages now that talk about it in completely skippable terms. And even then, it speaks to characterisation less than history.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I can, at this point, only rely on what I've Googled.

 

[LetalisK]

Before Jim got into the excitingly homo-erotic stuff, it didn't actually feel like he was talking about a parallel universe. I would not be surprised if the people who feel they need to vet gamer girls are the same ones that don't count guys who play Call of Duty and Madden as gamers.

 

[Gindil]

About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

No one's against the idea of a playable Zelda. It just makes NO sense given the mythos of the Zelda games. She created the Master Sword, has untold amounts of power, then you want her to just be able to fight and beat up the bad guys? That's a Mary Sue character and not very interesting.

What people seem more interested is a female Link character or the option to choose the gender. If people made that more interesting, that'd be understandable. But playing as just Zelda when she already does so much in the game based on Wisdom, not Courage, is too dangerously close to being a character that becomes uninteresting.

 

[Darken12]

IT'S TRUE. I'm a fake geek boy, and I just want your attention.

*cries bitterly*

I love you, Jim Sterling.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

About the Zelda issue, it's met an immense amount of resistance and hatred as illustrated in the comments of this article:
http://www.destructoid.com/gamers-urge-nintendo-for-a-playable-zelda-257454.phtml

I can't fully fathom some of the reasons people have against the idea of a playable Zelda short of the fear she'll get the "Princess Peach" treatment and get sent on a mission for a happy making vibe-sceptor using wild moodswings to make her journey, or treated like Samus in The Other M, which aughta speak for itself.

No one's against the idea of a playable Zelda. It just makes NO sense given the mythos of the Zelda games. She created the Master Sword, has untold amounts of power, then you want her to just be able to fight and beat up the bad guys? That's a Mary Sue character and not very interesting.

What people seem more interested is a female Link character or the option to choose the gender. If people made that more interesting, that'd be understandable. But playing as just Zelda when she already does so much in the game based on Wisdom, not Courage, is too dangerously close to being a character that becomes uninteresting.

Funny, you say no one's against it, but here you are saying you're against it since it makes no sense in game, and she'd become mary sue, and she'd be uninteresting. That's very much against Zelda having a more heroic role as the protagonist.
And lets not forget the comments section on that article, here.

Shiek? Tetra? Both combat capable Zeldas in the mythos of the game. Zelda helped fight now and then actively as herself, especially in fights vs Gannon.

How does it make sense that she's as powerful as all that, yet gets kidnapped in nearly every game? How wise is it to leave yourself vulnerable to being kidnapped in the first place, or not have people won over so you have a legion of people who volunteeer to, or insist on defending you? It's a bit of a long standing peeve of mine with "intelligent" people in games, tv, and movies. They seem to know everything but how to defend themselves.

Why ya gotta keep Zelda in the role of getting kidnapped? Are you saying it's impossible for Zelda to be the hero?

If she were well written as the hero of her own legend, she could pull it off without being mary sue.

A gender select Link would be ok, I guess, but I think Zelda as a hero would be more pallatable for me.

 

[pottyaboutpotter1]

Biceps... Muscular Chests...Calves...

Sorry what were we taking about?

... Great vid Jim!

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

At first I didn't get the satire because I thought he was being serious and making an excellent point. Back in the NES/SNES days the "dudebros" thought gaming was for nerds, and that was fine by me. Then they started picking up the habit and now gaming has devolved into noting but mindless PvP crap because the dubebros don't care about games, they just want to pwn newbs with there massive deeps.

So I'm going to pretend this video is a serious one and applaud it for showing how "Fake gamer guys" are a bigger threat to our hobby than "Fake gamer girls". Death to competitive multilayer, it lowers the bar for all gaming. Let that moronic caveman mentality stay on the football field. Co-op or SP only please.

 

[JarinArenos]

So I'm going to pretend this video is a serious one and applaud it for showing how "Fake gamer guys" are a bigger threat to our hobby than "Fake gamer girls". Death to competitive multilayer, it lowers the bar for all gaming. Let that moronic caveman mentality stay on the football field. Co-op or SP only please.

The video works on so many levels. Just more of Jim's brilliance.

 

[Schadrach]

Why ya gotta keep Zelda in the role of getting kidnapped? Are you saying it's impossible for Zelda to be the hero?

If she were well written as the hero of her own legend, she could pull it off without being mary sue.

A gender select Link would be ok, I guess, but I think Zelda as a hero would be more pallatable for me.

Ultimately, a big theme in the underlying mythos is that the same basic series of events happens time and again (though there are lots of arguments regarding the timeline, one thing is pretty consistent -- that Skyward Sword is the first game chronologically, and that Demise's curse is likely responsible for the whole repetition throughout history). I may be forgetting something, but I can't think of anything that says that the core characters in that particular story have to be any particular gender, just fill their specific positions. There's nothing that says that next time around it can't be Prince Zelig (with the blood of the goddess / triforce of wisdom) being taken and ultimately saved by Lana (with the spirit of the hero / triforce of courage).

What you are suggesting is breaking the entire "doomed to repeat itself" scenario because gender complaints. But the repetition of that scenario is core to the series.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Why ya gotta keep Zelda in the role of getting kidnapped? Are you saying it's impossible for Zelda to be the hero?

If she were well written as the hero of her own legend, she could pull it off without being mary sue.

A gender select Link would be ok, I guess, but I think Zelda as a hero would be more pallatable for me.

Ultimately, a big theme in the underlying mythos is that the same basic series of events happens time and again (though there are lots of arguments regarding the timeline, one thing is pretty consistent -- that Skyward Sword is the first game chronologically, and that Demise's curse is likely responsible for the whole repetition throughout history). I may be forgetting something, but I can't think of anything that says that the core characters in that particular story have to be any particular gender, just fill their specific positions. There's nothing that says that next time around it can't be Prince Zelig (with the blood of the goddess / triforce of wisdom) being taken and ultimately saved by Lana (with the spirit of the hero / triforce of courage).

What you are suggesting is breaking the entire "doomed to repeat itself" scenario because gender complaints. But the repetition of that scenario is core to the series.

Not really gender complaints since you're open to gender swaps, rather I'd like to see/play as Zelda in action on her own outside of smash bros.

Doomed to repeat itself doesn't mean it happens the exct same way every time, does it? Variations, maybe like a plot revolving around Zelda's escape to find Link, while Link tries to get to her in a dual adventure game that can be played like a traditional LoZ Game, Zelda's Escape, or a switching perspective, maybe, culminating in them meeting up, then going to battle Gannon.

Of course it could take part in Zelda's time as Shiek, or Tetra in something of a prequel?

Oh, the game could mix ideas! You're Zelda resisting capture, possibly with an alter ego, but eventually, inevitably she gets captured (as heroes tend to be) then she attempts to free herself while Link tries to free her.

But honestly, it's up to nintendo if, and how they handle a Zelda game, or if they simply gender swap. Either way, they're shaking things up if they do, and I'd appreciate it.

 

[RicoADF]

Thank you, Jim. Though this issue has more awareness these days, it is still a problem. I'm glad there seem to be so many people who seem genuinely convinced that this is not a problem anymore, but I would venture a guess most of these respondents are male who truly do not personally have an issue with this (which is fantastic).

I see this problem online, in video games, in comic books, in certain genres for movies and books... In many places. Someone wanted examples, and I gave up mentally cataloging all details of what's happened to me because they all just became more of the same over time.

Is it better than five years ago, ten years ago? Yes. But in the meantime, over the course of several years, I have opted to give up on any multiplayer outside of Assassin's Creed, physically going to video game stores, and engaging in conversations with people I don't know well about the things I love and am passionate about. I've been asked "oh, your boyfriend plays it, right?", "Well, yeah, but most girls pretty much play only Final Fantasy, don't they?", and "Oh, well, you just liked Avengers because of the actors, right?" more than once, from several different people.

And I have a pretty easy time of it compared with many of the other gamers I know who happen to be female, since I work in IT. I literally do not know a female gamer of my acquaintance who has not had condescension or antagonism directed towards her for playing in that playground (oh, unless they 'just' played Farmville or SIMS - those are fine for a girl to like. It's worse for those whose primary enjoyments are FPS or Sports games.)

By this point, my habits have been formed, and it would take a lot to convince me to change them simply because "it's better now." I hope the next generation of gamers who happen to be female reap the benefits of this time in which more guys respond with "What? This is still a problem?" than "Well, of course girls don't really mean it!"

But please don't dismiss the experiences of those who have withdrawn from a community because you haven't seen it yourself. It's out there. It has hurt people. And dismissing it should not be your first instinct.

I wonder how much if this is regional, as in it's an issue in the US but since most if not all gaming sites are based in the US and report on US issues it gets displayed as a world wide issue rather than a local one. Reason I wonder is that I know a few gamers that are girls, both online and off, and it's never been an issue in our groups but the girls have experienced it often from American's (not always though). What we have here isn't just gamers and non gamers, but rather gamers and non gamers in god knows how many nations with varying degrees of acceptance and social stigma. I think this year at the EB expo I'll pay a closer attention to who's at the expo, from memory there were girls there and there weren't any issues/they weren't being harassed from what I saw but I wasn't paying attention. Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences, hope that changes soon.

 

[Crimsom Storm]

I think you're all missing the biggest issue: Some think it's about these frat boys that play Call of Duty and "think they're gamers", and some think it's about how we disrespect girls who "act like they're gamers" when in fact we've been gaming for so much longer. It's not about either of those in my eyes: It's about how no matter what game you're playing, even if it's Farmville, WE. ARE. ALL. GAMERS.

We ridicule men and women by hammering them with questions about obscure games they'd never know about just to prove that we're better gamers than them. We blame them for how gaming has "degraded". Yet they're not the problem. The companies make the decision to release games that cater only to them, not to hardcore RPG players like most on here seem to be. There are, however, games still coming out for those folks.

We need to stop shoveling blame onto one another, in some desperate grab for the "Good ol' days". We have indie companies gladly filling this role, and hardcore games like Dark Souls that hit their target audience and become successes. We also need to stop being exclusionary. We hated it when it was happening to us, now we're just doing the same thing we had done to us, when we fought to make it where gaming would be seen as a healthy, enjoyable hobby.

We have it pretty damn good now folks, and there are enough companies and genres to where everyone can get what they want. Be it the twitch gamer that loves shooters, the methodical grinders that play RPGs, or the strategy gamer that have night terrors about unit costs, we're all gamers, and there's enough of this digital pie to go around. If anything, we should be thanking them, because things like Kickstarter Games and Retro Indie Games exist because of the popularity they brought with them. I dare argue that they made things even more awesome for us and made the genre evolve even further.

At least be kind enough to give me a head start before you flame me. I'm allergic to death.