Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Pat Hulse]

Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Amazon - Sexualized, impractical outfit. While not "traditionally" attractive from a mainstream attraction, she definitely fits within fetishistic character design tropes popular in certain niches within Japanese entertainment. She may not be everyone's cup of tea, but trust me, she's designed for sex appeal. Plus none of the characters in that game have interesting or unique character motivations or identities, so even if you could argue that she isn't designed with sex appeal in mind, she fails to meet Jim's criteria for that reason as well (though at least the male characters in the game are equally as uninteresting and under-developed).
Lucca - A supporting character, not a protagonist. Jim was specifically looking for playable protagonists.
Okami - The character is actually named Amaterasu, but I'd say that's probably a fair example that Jim may have overlooked.
Peacock - Her motivations center around being used as a test subject, which Jim would justifiably qualify as "power from trauma".
Double - See above.
Macha/NeoFio/Poshul/Sprigg - Not protagonists.
Shale - A DLC character and not a protagonist.
Kreia - Not a protagonist.

One example I thought of that Jim may have overlooked is Kazooie from Banjo-Kazooie, who could be argued as a supporting character, but I'd argue that she's the more active participant in the duo, particular in regards to gameplay, though obviously she has less at stake in terms of plot since it's not her sister that's been kidnapped. But it does seem a bit silly that we have to keep looking at non-humanoids to find valid examples.

And it may seem like splitting hairs for discounting many of your characters for not being protagonists, but part of the issue is that women would like to be able to directly identify with the character they has the most agency and direct focus within the story. They may like to see well-crafted female supporting characters, but when it's all they have, it starts to make them feel ignored, marginalized, and underestimated. It seems like there's an underlying hesitance to make a woman the central protagonist either due to concerns regarding whether or not their young male demographic would enjoy playing as a female character they don't find attractive, as though we would be afraid of identifying with a woman. As a dude, I find that assumption pretty demeaning. I don't need to find a female character sexy to want to play as her and I don't need to play as a male character to identify with the protagonist. I think game publishers need to stop overthinking it so much.

For starters, look up the definition of 'protagonist'. Here let me help:

protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.

So Kreia, Macha, NeoFio, Poshul, Sprigg, Lucca, and Shale are, in fact, Protagonists. Any Party member would be. Even non playable characters, like Joker from Mass Effect, would count as a Protagonist. Lucca especially, since Chrono dies half way through the game. Is there just no Protagonist at that point?

A character being DLC is entirely irrelevant.

The Trauma thing, well you might have me for those two.

From a narrative perspective, you may be right, but we're talking about video games here. It's possible for a game to have multiple protagonists, but in my mind, that would mean those characters would have to share all of the same means of control and prominence within the game and gameplay. To put it another way, the protagonist in Dragon Age is the main character because you can walk around as them, talk to people, and do a bunch of other things, but since you cannot do most of those things as Shale, she is rendered a supporting character. Shale is a character you talk to and command in combat. She only sticks around so long as she has a relationship and commitment to the main character. If she leaves, you don't get to play as her and see what happens on her solo adventures.

To put it yet another way, all those characters may be critically important to the plot, but you can't play as them in the same way you can play as the "true" protagonist.

That said, I had forgotten that Lucca was actually a playable character with no real significant gameplay differences when compared with Crono, so yeah, I guess she probably would fit Jim's criteria. However, while I haven't played "Chrono Cross", my understanding is that Serge is the central character throughout the whole game and the one used for navigation and managing the other playable characters, clearly making him the protagonist.

Then Jim shouldn't have used examples of non "true protagonists" in his video if he didn't want examples of them brought up in the comments.

Yes, I suppose the inclusion of the female characters from "Gears of War" does confuse that distinction a bit. Fair point.

 

[Erttheking]

Why are female characteristics always seen as "bad writing" or "generic" to you Jim? What I got from this video is that all female characters should only have traditional male motivations and attributes. Did I miss a hidden assumption somewhere along the line? This doesn't seem as uncontroversial as you make it seem

Um...the stereotypes he criticized writers of female characters for falling into were always pretty, always a love interest, and only fighting in a desperate attempt to survive and not in an empowering way. I don't see how those are female characteristics.

 

[Charli]

Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

'Women have been brain washed' isn't a fair statement at all, it's more like 'Women have acknowledged that the path set before them has been laden with obstacles that are nearly impossible for them to overcome unless they conform.' We're not STUPID. We know what's happening, and alot of us are rather fed up with it but lack the power and voice to penetrate the anti sound walls of men and women completely complacent with this system because it's what they're used to and comfortable with.

I would totally play an old/unattractive woman. I know I'm gonna age one day, the 'typical girly girl' is a rare thing nowadays, we're just not loud enough yet.

I think that this is a game forum and ...that's the angle we're working on. And yes Jim just covers it from a gaming perspective, but then there's indie... and art, and still none of them have tackled that issue, where as other 'industries' swathed as they are by the corporate mindset of sexualizing girls and women to the point is sickening. There are alternatives in many scenes and places.

Women in gaming are not demanding that the boobs and ass go away, we want our men to have a good time too and...well if that's what you like, you should be able to enjoy yourself too. So stop misconstruing intent. Variety is what we want, strong women who are as diversely characterized and appearances based on how other women besides the privileged, appear.
We'd like the ratio of catering to be maybe moved over to 1:9 instead of 0.1/9.9. Just a little bit, enough to have maybe some wacky indie gamers finally make like a Kung Fu Grandma or something. Or a thicker looking girl, pushing her way through a horror game un-ironically.

I think that little game on PS3 'Fat Princess' was one of the few examples I could think of off the top of my head, and she's not really 'the main character'. Not really, she's probably the face of the game, and a morally questionable entitled ***** making her minions carry her about and feed her cake. But she's teetering on the edge.

 

[Bodster]

Having gone back and thought on it again, still going with

Mitsuko from Bloody Roar (heavy type fighter and transforms into a boar, fighting for her kid's safety, no mention of husband or the father at all).

Maybe Spartan 458 from Dead or Alive 4, but hard to tell under that armour, though it certainly doesn't add to an "appeal" factor save for a disembodied voice accompanying the moveset.

 

[RJ 17]

Yes, but she's still got the whole smooth skin, slender body thing. I think Jim's point was that you don't see any female protagonists that look like the amazons from Futurama. A better example you could've brought up from Chrono Trigger would've been Ayla.

Are you kidding? Ayla? Ayla is probably the sexiest-designed character in that entire game. Blonde hair, curvaceous figure, and she wears an animal-fur bikini. Not to mention how "bouncy" her animations are.

The Amazons from Futurama, for that matter, weren't universally ugly. Most of them were as attractive as any other Futurama female, they just happened to be 15 feet tall. That's why Zap and Fry are both thrilled and terrified when their sentence comes down as "DEATH BY SNOO-SNOO!!!!"

 

[Cat of Doom]

Vertigo

Let's look for a playable woman protagonist in a videogame that doesn't rely on the same pool of restrictive stereotypes as every other playable woman protagonist.

Watch Video

What about shale from Dragon age: origins

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shale

She is a playable character, not attractive by any means (unless you have a thing for golems)and has her own unique agenda,is defiantly strong willed, and a unique combat style to the other companions.

"Now, let us crush something soft and watch it fountain blood. That is a girlish thing to want to do, yes?"

She has non traditional motives, having volunteered to become a golem, due to the fact she was a proud dwarf, eager to serve he nation, a hate of darkspawn and values physical strength over all else. It can even be argued she is a evil character. She is xenophobic, only loyal to the dwarf kingdom and has no empathy to any human characters you meet in your travels. She also takes delight in killing weaker foes favoring violence in resolving conflict, purely so she can crush the weak.

Also, she isn't dependent on the protagonist, often expressing her disapproval at helping the weak and not carrying on with the task at hand. She even turns on you (tries to kill you), if you make a decision conflicting with her beliefs, by siding with branka in the anvil of the void quest.

Wynn isn't traditionally attractive either, but not as good of a example as shale. To be honest though, I would have to think hard and long to find another playable female character who meets the criteria, as described in the video.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

'Women have been brain washed' isn't a fair statement at all, it's more like 'Women have acknowledged that the path set before them has been laden with obstacles that are nearly impossible for them to overcome unless they conform.' We're not STUPID. We know what's happening, and alot of us are rather fed up with it but lack the power and voice to penetrate the anti sound walls of men and women completely complacent with this system because it's what they're used to and comfortable with.

I would totally play an old/unattractive woman. I know I'm gonna age one day, the 'typical girly girl' is a rare thing nowadays, we're just not loud enough yet.

I think that this is a game forum and ...that's the angle we're working on. And yes Jim just covers it from a gaming perspective, but then there's indie... and art, and still none of them have tackled that issue, where as other 'industries' swathed as they are by the corporate mindset of sexualizing girls and women to the point is sickening. There are alternatives in many scenes and places.

Women in gaming are not demanding that the boobs and ass go away, we want our men to have a good time too and...well if that's what you like, you should be able to enjoy yourself too. So stop misconstruing intent. Variety is what we want, strong women who are as diversely characterized and appearances based on how other women besides the privileged, appear.
We'd like the ratio of catering to be maybe moved over to 1:9 instead of 0.1/9.9. Just a little bit, enough to have maybe some wacky indie gamers finally make like a Kung Fu Grandma or something. Or a thicker looking girl, pushing her way through a horror game un-ironically.

I think that little game on PS3 'Fat Princess' was one of the few examples I could think of off the top of my head, and she's not really 'the main character'. Not really, she's probably the face of the game, and a morally questionable entitled ***** making her minions carry her about and feed her cake. But she's teetering on the edge.

Thing you forget is, even old snake isnt ugly. An again its a character based on a multi million selling game. You could release an older Tomb Raider and it would sell due to the game. Men and woman are sexualised. An thats goes to advertising and girl/male mags. Your confusing what should be and not what is. Men are scene as young and muscly - look at movies and boy bands. Women are seen as sexy and young....look at movies and girl bands. Even older actors and singers are still young looking - both male and female. Just how life is.

For me, i take a character as they are. Dont care. As long as the game is fun. The whole game thing isnt an issue. The overly muscly strong man is a total opposite to me.....doesnt bother me. Same as i dont judge the woman i date by the adverts, mags, singers or game characters i play. Its fantasy. People need to get over it all.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

But that's kinda the point of what Jim was talking about: the range for male characters is much vaster than the range for female characters. Men can be old, young, grizzled, handsome, out-right pretty, badasses, goody two-shows, neutral, etc. They can have much more diversity in their character models and personalities, where as female playable characters are stuffed into narrow margins.

One of the big requirements that people are missing out with a lot of the suggestions in this thread is that a lot of them are bringing up "good" characters. To be fair, Jim doesn't specifically list in his 3 criteria that he was looking for bad/morally questionable females, but I'm pretty sure he meant to seeing as how that's one of the points he makes at the beginning of the episode (that playable females are almost always one of the good guys), and he also makes it a point to talk about how Vertigo was a wicked beast wanting to enslave the world, pointing out that in Primal Rage Vertigo is one of the "villains" characters you can fight as. And finding an unattractive, "evil", playable, not-motivated-by-man-or-trauma female character is very tricky, implying that almost all female characters that are playable are "good", conventionally attractive, and are motivated by a man or trauma. They almost all fit into that mold, while male characters can be pretty much anything the developer wants them to be.

That said, I have seen some good examples of females that do fit Jim's criteria throughout this topic, but I think the video is more about making the point that the majority of female characters fit into that mold, not challenging us to try and one-up him by coming up with other characters that might meet the criteria of this exercise.

I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

 

[BlindChance]

You have a surprisingly lovely singing voice, Jim.

Also, y'know? I'd accept attractive if it just meant we could get older. I mean, fer fuck's sake; Jackie Brown is just dying to be the 'inspiration' that a GTA game blatantly rips off.

 

[Lightknight]

What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind?

Quick, you're a development studio making a game. The overwhelming majority of your potential client base is male. What gender do you cater to if either if you want to ensure that your studio gets picked up again for a different game or a sequel?

Quick, you're a publishing studio thinking about investing in a game. Do you invest in a game that caters to men or women if over 80% of your potential customer base is male?

Is it any game studio's job to expand the entire gaming market at potentially huge losses? If you're spending millions of dollars on a game do you risk alienating your core audience without any potential upside? See, men and women do express different interests in most medias. It's not that they can't enjoy the same things or even that there isn't overlap, just that in aggregate we express different tastes. That's either due to culturally based gender roles or actual differences in gender pyschology (or perhaps a combination thereof), but the two are nigh impossible to separate out. So even if a game is made that caters directly to them, there is no promise that they'll enjoy it. What if gaming genres are the same movie genres and most women gamers simply don't prefer the kind of games we do? Don't get me wrong, my wife loves FPS games, she's a big fan of COD. But regarding the average female gamer? Perhaps they prefer more casual games? There should be a reason why 80% of female gamers in that study considered their Wii their primary console. We just don't know why yet. But assuming that women will like the same things that guys do does injustice to real differences that make both genders unique in their own right.

As such, throwing bloody FPS titles at women may never get the response it does from men, no matter how capable and plain the female protagonist was made. Because God only knows that women strongly desire to play as some ugly chick as their avatar. Just like I desire to play as some fat slob with an asthma problem.[/sarcasmjoke]

 

[BlindChance]

What about shale from Dragon age: origins

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shale

She is a playable character, not attractive by any means (unless you have a thing for golems)and has her own unique agenda,is defiantly strong willed, and a unique combat style to the other companions.

Not a bad call at all, actually.

 

[jboking]

It's been a long time since I've posted on the Escapist, but I love the Jimquisition and it feels like Jim did not try hard enough searching for a modern female protagonist. The first one that comes to mind has already been referenced a number of times in this thread. Amaterasu is a great female protagonist. She is playable, capable (she's a god, after all), and is not unnecessarily dependent upon a man or unnecessarily pretty in the conventional sense. Some may count this example out, as Amaterasu is a wolf, so her being attractive isn't an option, via her character. Still, I see her as a viable answer to Jim's implied question of "Is there a non stereo-typed female protagonist in modern gaming?"

A second example comes from Dragon Age: Origins. While Jim probably wasn't looking at this game, because he ruled out any game where there is a player created character, there is a pre-written character that fits his requirements. Wynne is an older human woman, is not conventionally attractive and is not referred to as being attractive. In a world full of characters waiting to copulate with the Warden, Wynne always refuses any advances. Wynne is also capable in the battlefield and is a source of a lot of wisdom for the main character. She also isn't reliant upon any male character and is well respected in the Mage's circle. You could also attempt to rule her out, saying that she focuses on healing magic in combat, but I feel being a healer does not invalidate her other great traits.

There are other examples that cam be listed, but these are two that I was able to pull up off the top of my head.

 

[Miss G.]

I was thinking, Does Izanami count?

~snip

She's not exactly...pretty, and she's a villain and all.

You don't get to play as her, though, and her human guise is still androgynously attractive. Pretty sure if she were playable and unattractive along with everything else, she could be considered.

 

[mada7]

After browsing through lists of characters I found one more recent than Vertigo ironically enough from another ridiculous fighting game: Sheeva from Mortal Kombat 3. While technically she is fighting basically a singlet the males of that race just wear speedos as combat attire so I think that's just how they dress. It is kinda sad though that the only women that aren't young and/or attractive are either animals or hideous monsters

 

[hentropy]

Recette from Recettear is a pretty damn good female character in my estimation, as well as the female protags from other Carpe Fulgar games. Not exactly mainstream, though, I suppose, even if Recettear has quite the reach now.

Hmmm, generically cute anime girl who seems to be a child (or very, very short, going by google image search), not sure if that counts.

The difference is that it's not a hot 20-something T&A idol. Japan is really different in that sense, but I don't personally see why more kids or underage characters can't be real characters in games, I think Psychonauts was very good partially because the protagonists were children. But at the same time, Recette is a driven and caring girl who is trying to make her way running a store, difficult not because she's a girl, but because she's a preteen/young teenager with no prior business experience. On the other hand you also play Tear in some ways, despite being a fairy is otherwise adult and responsible and not really a sex idol or really even terribly attractive.

So cute, yes, but the generic kind of "heroine" we get in most other games? Not exactly, but it's up to individual I suppose whether they "count" that or not. Personally I played an overweight female Asian gangbanger who eventually became President in Saints Row, and that was a whole lot of fun, all things considered.

 

[88chaz88]

If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?

Can we all stop with the "If 'X' doesn't matter..." defense? It's completely ridiculous.

'X' does matter, else we wouldn't have so many examples of one subset of 'X' yet so few of the other. It clearly matters yet it damn well shouldn't, and the only way we're going to stop it from being important is to have more diversity.

And diversity matters.

Why should I stop pointing out the flaws in your argument?

Because of what I've just explained. Keep up.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

One could also look at a game like King of Fighters where the characters might not be repulsive, but there's a great variation in female character types. Actually you could look at several japanese titles and it would pleobably feature interesting female characters, they have gotten a bad rep but in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't that fair considering how often they get it right.

But if we are looking for villians it starts to get a bit more difficult, though i did notice that MGS 4 features female soldiers, which you only really notice because of their voices

Not really true.

I like the Frogs and all, but you can tell just by looking at them that they're female.

Spoiler: It's not just their voices.

There's at least two other things that gives it away...

So after it was agreed last week that Lizzie from rampage is the only evil female protagonist, the next best answer is still a dinosaur.

Oh yeah.

Spoiler: Lizzie!

Another of my favorites.

Though she does get a tiny bit sexualized when she gets beat, and turns back into a human...Naked. Granted, it's not like you could make anything out because of the graphics, and that happens to all of the characters not just her.
So I think she could count.

<.< Is anyone else weirded out just a little that so far most of the examples have been giant female reptiles? And THE Aliens...

 

[Rad Party God]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

Considering that both Okami and MGS3 are some of my favorite games on their respective consoles (Wii and PS2) and I absolutely love them, only Ammy is a playable character and protagonist, although The Boss is an incredibly badass character in her own right, she's not playable.

So yes Jim, what about Ammy? :3

OT: Well, there are a few fighting game females that aren't "pretty" (as in, she's not defined by her cup size), but definitely badass, like King from KOF (she's completely covered from top to bottom) and Luca from Chrono Trigger (she's playable aqnd you can even make her your party leader later on)... and... hmmmm... some others... I think... >.>'

 

[Darth_Payn]

Huh. Your ideal woman is actually huge skank Jim. Don't think I haven't seen that victory pose. I will be damned if she wasn't turning her back just to show her lovely lady humps. Waving the tail if you will.

Well I was expecting Miss Pacman to appear then I realized she is just a distaff counter-part to her more popular male character and she doesn't really have motivations of her own and actually depicted with make up, high heel shoes and a boa in her concept arts.

Maybe Sarah Kerrigan in her new design but abominable high heels truly ruin that image...and inexplicably well preserved face and overall features that survived the mutation process.

A long way to go indeed...

I've heard rumors... that there IS no Ms. Pac-Man; that's the original Pac-Man IN DRAG!

But back to the video: Jim, you asked why women can't be ugly or evil in games if their protagonists. If they did, wouldn't other people complain really loudly and throw around accusations of misogyny and even worse sexism? Because that's where my brain automatically went. Or would this not be a problem when more women become game writers.

 

[Basque]

You wanted a non-sexy woman and you ended up with Vertigo? How could you have gone so wrong?