Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Lightknight]

What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind?

Quick, you're a development studio making a game. The overwhelming majority of your potential client base is male. What gender do you cater to if either if you want to ensure that your studio gets picked up again for a different game or a sequel?

Quick, you're a publishing studio thinking about investing in a game. Do you invest in a game that caters to men or women if over 80% of your potential customer base is male?

Is it any game studio's job to expand the entire gaming market at potentially huge losses? If you're spending millions of dollars on a game do you risk alienating your core audience without any potential upside? See, men and women do express different interests in most medias. It's not that they can't enjoy the same things or even that there isn't overlap, just that in aggregate we express different tastes. That's either due to culturally based gender roles or actual differences in gender pyschology (or perhaps a combination thereof), but the two are nigh impossible to separate out. So even if a game is made that caters directly to them, there is no promise that they'll enjoy it. What if gaming genres are the same movie genres and most women gamers simply don't prefer the kind of games we do? Don't get me wrong, my wife loves FPS games, she's a big fan of COD. But regarding the average female gamer? Perhaps they prefer more casual games? There should be a reason why 80% of female gamers in that study considered their Wii their primary console. We just don't know why yet. But assuming that women will like the same things that guys do does injustice to real differences that make both genders unique in their own right.

As such, throwing bloody FPS titles at women may never get the response it does from men, no matter how capable and plain the female protagonist was made. Because God only knows that women strongly desire to play as some ugly chick as their avatar. Just like I desire to play as some fat slob with an asthma problem.[/sarcasmjoke]

 

[BlindChance]

What about shale from Dragon age: origins

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shale

She is a playable character, not attractive by any means (unless you have a thing for golems)and has her own unique agenda,is defiantly strong willed, and a unique combat style to the other companions.

Not a bad call at all, actually.

 

[jboking]

It's been a long time since I've posted on the Escapist, but I love the Jimquisition and it feels like Jim did not try hard enough searching for a modern female protagonist. The first one that comes to mind has already been referenced a number of times in this thread. Amaterasu is a great female protagonist. She is playable, capable (she's a god, after all), and is not unnecessarily dependent upon a man or unnecessarily pretty in the conventional sense. Some may count this example out, as Amaterasu is a wolf, so her being attractive isn't an option, via her character. Still, I see her as a viable answer to Jim's implied question of "Is there a non stereo-typed female protagonist in modern gaming?"

A second example comes from Dragon Age: Origins. While Jim probably wasn't looking at this game, because he ruled out any game where there is a player created character, there is a pre-written character that fits his requirements. Wynne is an older human woman, is not conventionally attractive and is not referred to as being attractive. In a world full of characters waiting to copulate with the Warden, Wynne always refuses any advances. Wynne is also capable in the battlefield and is a source of a lot of wisdom for the main character. She also isn't reliant upon any male character and is well respected in the Mage's circle. You could also attempt to rule her out, saying that she focuses on healing magic in combat, but I feel being a healer does not invalidate her other great traits.

There are other examples that cam be listed, but these are two that I was able to pull up off the top of my head.

 

[Miss G.]

I was thinking, Does Izanami count?

~snip

She's not exactly...pretty, and she's a villain and all.

You don't get to play as her, though, and her human guise is still androgynously attractive. Pretty sure if she were playable and unattractive along with everything else, she could be considered.

 

[mada7]

After browsing through lists of characters I found one more recent than Vertigo ironically enough from another ridiculous fighting game: Sheeva from Mortal Kombat 3. While technically she is fighting basically a singlet the males of that race just wear speedos as combat attire so I think that's just how they dress. It is kinda sad though that the only women that aren't young and/or attractive are either animals or hideous monsters

 

[hentropy]

Recette from Recettear is a pretty damn good female character in my estimation, as well as the female protags from other Carpe Fulgar games. Not exactly mainstream, though, I suppose, even if Recettear has quite the reach now.

Hmmm, generically cute anime girl who seems to be a child (or very, very short, going by google image search), not sure if that counts.

The difference is that it's not a hot 20-something T&A idol. Japan is really different in that sense, but I don't personally see why more kids or underage characters can't be real characters in games, I think Psychonauts was very good partially because the protagonists were children. But at the same time, Recette is a driven and caring girl who is trying to make her way running a store, difficult not because she's a girl, but because she's a preteen/young teenager with no prior business experience. On the other hand you also play Tear in some ways, despite being a fairy is otherwise adult and responsible and not really a sex idol or really even terribly attractive.

So cute, yes, but the generic kind of "heroine" we get in most other games? Not exactly, but it's up to individual I suppose whether they "count" that or not. Personally I played an overweight female Asian gangbanger who eventually became President in Saints Row, and that was a whole lot of fun, all things considered.

 

[88chaz88]

If looks doesnt matter, why cant women be "attractive" so to speak?

Can we all stop with the "If 'X' doesn't matter..." defense? It's completely ridiculous.

'X' does matter, else we wouldn't have so many examples of one subset of 'X' yet so few of the other. It clearly matters yet it damn well shouldn't, and the only way we're going to stop it from being important is to have more diversity.

And diversity matters.

Why should I stop pointing out the flaws in your argument?

Because of what I've just explained. Keep up.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

One could also look at a game like King of Fighters where the characters might not be repulsive, but there's a great variation in female character types. Actually you could look at several japanese titles and it would pleobably feature interesting female characters, they have gotten a bad rep but in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't that fair considering how often they get it right.

But if we are looking for villians it starts to get a bit more difficult, though i did notice that MGS 4 features female soldiers, which you only really notice because of their voices

Not really true.

I like the Frogs and all, but you can tell just by looking at them that they're female.

Spoiler: It's not just their voices.

There's at least two other things that gives it away...

So after it was agreed last week that Lizzie from rampage is the only evil female protagonist, the next best answer is still a dinosaur.

Oh yeah.

Spoiler: Lizzie!

Another of my favorites.

Though she does get a tiny bit sexualized when she gets beat, and turns back into a human...Naked. Granted, it's not like you could make anything out because of the graphics, and that happens to all of the characters not just her.
So I think she could count.

<.< Is anyone else weirded out just a little that so far most of the examples have been giant female reptiles? And THE Aliens...

 

[Rad Party God]

Spoiler: *cough*

I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.

Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...

Well she's Ammy!

Considering that both Okami and MGS3 are some of my favorite games on their respective consoles (Wii and PS2) and I absolutely love them, only Ammy is a playable character and protagonist, although The Boss is an incredibly badass character in her own right, she's not playable.

So yes Jim, what about Ammy? :3

OT: Well, there are a few fighting game females that aren't "pretty" (as in, she's not defined by her cup size), but definitely badass, like King from KOF (she's completely covered from top to bottom) and Luca from Chrono Trigger (she's playable aqnd you can even make her your party leader later on)... and... hmmmm... some others... I think... >.>'

 

[Darth_Payn]

Huh. Your ideal woman is actually huge skank Jim. Don't think I haven't seen that victory pose. I will be damned if she wasn't turning her back just to show her lovely lady humps. Waving the tail if you will.

Well I was expecting Miss Pacman to appear then I realized she is just a distaff counter-part to her more popular male character and she doesn't really have motivations of her own and actually depicted with make up, high heel shoes and a boa in her concept arts.

Maybe Sarah Kerrigan in her new design but abominable high heels truly ruin that image...and inexplicably well preserved face and overall features that survived the mutation process.

A long way to go indeed...

I've heard rumors... that there IS no Ms. Pac-Man; that's the original Pac-Man IN DRAG!

But back to the video: Jim, you asked why women can't be ugly or evil in games if their protagonists. If they did, wouldn't other people complain really loudly and throw around accusations of misogyny and even worse sexism? Because that's where my brain automatically went. Or would this not be a problem when more women become game writers.

 

[Basque]

You wanted a non-sexy woman and you ended up with Vertigo? How could you have gone so wrong?

 

[Ukomba]

Hmm, well here's a list of characters I think meet that criteria:

Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Lucca from Chrono Trigger.
Okami from Okami.
Peacock from skull girls.
Double from skull girls.
Macha from Chrono Cross.
NeoFio from Chrono Cross.
Poshul from Chrono Cross.
Sprigg from Chrono Cross.
Shale from Dragon Age.
Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Bombette from Paper Mario.
Lady Bow from Paper Mario.
Watt from Paper Mario.
Sushie from Paper Mario.
Goombella from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Flurrie from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Ms. Mowz from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
Toadette from Mario Kart.
Birdo from Mario Kart.
Baby Daisy from Mario Kart.
Nana from Ice Climers / Smash Brothers.

That's just what I could come up with off the top of my head from games I've played.

Jack from Mass Effect 2.
Sue Sakamoto from Cave Story.
Gaige from Border Lands 2.
Hildegard von Krone From Soul Calibur IV
Freya from Final Fantasy 9.
Quina Quen From Final Fantasy9???

I don't know. Seems there's a lot that are at least possible. You could even make the case that Purna from Dead island fits the criteria.

 

[RJ 17]

I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

Ahhhh, I get your point now. Yeah, I can think of a few off the top of my head, probably some more if I took some time to do a bit of research. I think he was just going for direct opposites for what we see in female characters specifically, but you still do have a fair point.

 

[AtheistConservative]

Jim, I actually feel sorry for you. It must be really awful to be a SJW and always seeing evil or bad in the world.

You blatantly discount Saints Row, Mass Effect, TES, Fallout 3/NV. All of which can have non-traditionally attractive, ugly, and or old females. They can act from a variety of impulses and run a spectrum of alignments (less so for Saints Row I guess).

You complain that women are too often portrayed as good. Can you imagine the uproar that would happen if a game's only PC was a heavy, old, evil woman. One who had no redeeming qualities, much like Cane and Lynch? The Tumblr servers would burst into flame from the load.

Females that act out of love are out? Great! Let's knock out all males who act out of love of a woman. Whoops, looks like a lot of them are gone.

Let's do the same with personal tragedy.

Attractiveness next.

Suddenly the male pool of characters has shrunk significantly as well.

 

[franksands]

Yeah I too can not think of a single example. I was tempted to say Ellie from that bit where you play as her, but I suppose I'm only not thinking of her as attractive because she's too young for me to see her that way. She is the game's protagonist in my eyes though, but I can't honestly count her when she's only playable for an hour of it.

And discounting player made characters is important, because a fully rounded and crafted character as part of a linear narrative is dependant on things like gender, race, appearance and whether they go for Paragon or Renegade points. If the developers didn't create a character in a certain way (female, not conventionally attractive etc) then how can it possibly count as a progressive protagonist?

Still trying to think up more examples as I type. Maybe there's some fairly obscure indie games or Japanese stuff that I don't know of... But as far as Western AAA I'm drawing a thousand blanks.

I think Ellie is a good example, she's a protagonist playable character who is not the default playboy playmate type.
So this gives us 2 characters: Amaterassu and Ellie. Still a very sad state of affairs.

 

[KDR_11k]

Man Searches for Hen's Teeth, Yells at cloud when Dinosaur is the best he's getting.

More at 11.

So you're saying it is by definition impossible for a female character to be a protagonist, evil AND unattractive? So a character with those traits would not be a woman?

Jim, I actually feel sorry for you. It must be really awful to be a SJW and always seeing evil or bad in the world.

You blatantly discount Saints Row, Mass Effect, TES, Fallout 3/NV. All of which can have non-traditionally attractive, ugly, and or old females. They can act from a variety of impulses and run a spectrum of alignments (less so for Saints Row I guess).

The issue there is: CAN have. With player created characters it is not the videogame industry creating that character, it is the player. How many of these games include developer-created characters that fit the bill? We're talking about an issue with the industry here, not an issue with the players.

 

[clinicalPsychologist]

As such, throwing bloody FPS titles at women may never get the response it does from men, no matter how capable and plain the female protagonist was made. Because God only knows that women strongly desire to play as some ugly chick as their avatar. Just like I desire to play as some fat slob with an asthma problem.[/sarcasmjoke]

Funny, but Scott Shelby was my favourite character in Heavy Rain, and yeah, (slight spoiler warning)

Spoiler

he is a fat slob with an asthma problem

On another note, even if it maybe is understandable that developers make games with a male audience in mind because that is their biggest audience, I just cannot accept that this argument used in this context always implies that the only thing male gamers want are the same tropes used over and over (both male and female centered) or only hyperattractive women in their games. I think that this assumption is rather sexistic against men.