Jimquisition: Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

Lightknight

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Tanakh said:
Humm, almost, but not quite. As the gen goes along developers will focus on optimizing the programs for consoles, benefiting everyone but mostly the consoles and getting good looking games running on them with less raw processing power; i still remember the old days when devs optimized for PC. Not quite sure skyrim is the poster child for this tough, as it was unplayable in one console and even in the other the experience was totally different from the PC game.
It was initially unplayable on the ps3. Believe me, I know because this was the final straw that got me to build my own all-powerful pc. But the issue wasn't the resources of the machine so much as it was the asset category division. Bethesda games have a major problem with asset bloating and on the ps3 that means the system crashes. I did extensive QAing of the game on day one when I got the title and quickly discovered that this was the problem. It only took them 4 months to finally admit it. To start, the dungeons weren't even resetting. None of the assets were being dumped at all. People thought it was the save file size but that wasn't the problem. The save file size was just indicative of the problem.

The 360 didn't have that problem initially because it didn't force developers to do that nonsense with assets. Fortunately, Sony isn't doing that this time around and the devs did get things squared away.

But it did get things working and there wasn't a horrible difference between min-spec pcs and the ps3/360. Not that I could see. But seeing as I spent all the rest of time on ultra I may have forgotten something.

But yeah, even next gen the consoles will be the standard, until a big event occurs (like a console crash, or the successful launch of a steam linux dedicated PC) the computer will be an afterthought for most devs. As for it making no sense, BS, this few years has been amazing for PC exclusive titles and the companies that have launched them have racked with quite the green.
The past few years has been amazing for Indie developers in general (aka, pc exclusives). Thankfully it looks like the consoles are aware of this and have made their consoles indie friendly platforms even if Microsoft is basically a dick to indie devs.

Thanks for the response! I appreciate a well-thought out conversation.
 

Tanakh

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Lightknight said:
Yeah, I never understood why the PS3 had such pitiful RAM, it wasn't that expensive even back when designed and forced devs to do workarounds; guess they threw all their money to the CPU development only to discover that it was totally not worth doing it (even if it was a nice geeky project). For the PC, I think after the first day the least i played with was 5 mods and eventually got to around 50, and I enjoyed each mod greatly; it was not so much about the better graphics and way better textures, but the possibility of making everything in the game feel just right, do silly stuff here and there or engage in massive/epic battles that just weren't there for consoles, and let's not forget the bugs that you can either patch due community patches or bypass due the console.

You think Sony is better for indies? I actually dislike it more. They have discovered that indie games get some extra customers, are cheap to support/buy and are GREAT PR, what did they do? Buy developers for pennies (comparatively) and hold their games ransom on the PS4. Right now the PS4 seems like the better console for me, I want a console to play fighting games online (damn you Marvel VS Capcom), it is an inferior option for me than a PC in every other aspect, but they have the fighting community and it really feels like they have one/two games i really want to play sequestrated for no reason, now that they are getting small indie games and holding them ransom it hits me in a really sensitive spot and I am thinking going Xbox One out of pure spite.

<3
 

Tanakh

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Humm, maybe I am just bitter about the whole new console scene. Especially because users/content providers here went ahead and cheered Sony while the only thing they did was having better PR.

Both MS and Sony said the DRM was up to the devs (though the Xbox had better enforcing methods), the likeliness of kinect used to "spy" on you on some level is so low you should be quite dumb take it seriously (though the kinect capabilities are kinda creepy). Those were the two issues raised here, I think most escapist users just missed the important points, and don't get me started about people saying MS was setting precedents and taking rights from them when they are not a fucking legislative branch on any country nor were lobbying, litigating or legislating...

Most of all it bothered me a little that people were stupid/naive enough to think Sony did any of this for some other reason but because it was the answer to "How we can earn the most money out of costumers?".
 

Windcaler

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I usually dont watch the Jimquisition because I just dont care for it but this ones title drew me in because Im a PC gamer. After watching the episode my first thought is, are you freaking kidding us Jim?

Look digital distribution is a great thing for gaming in general due to the convienance but it has a lot of pitfalls that we dont routinely talk about. Sales are nice but for me (and I only mean to talk about myself) they do not and never will quell the problem with any service's DRM riddled nonsense.

Let me go through these pitfalls

1. Steam dominance means lack of retailer choice: Like it or not digital distribution are the retailers of PC gaming. Essentially Steam is walmart. Its the new middle man. However steam has dominance over the market. There are many games, AAA and indie, that you can only legally buy on steam. Yes I can go to GoG.com and get descent or Baldurs gate but what if I want Sang Froid or Skyrim? Yeah I can only use steam and I personally dont want to

2. You still dont own your games: Like it or not this is a fact. Your games are tied to a library curated by valve's service. A library that ultimately you can have no control over since it is on a company's server instead of your own server, hard drive, external hard drive, or whatever. On top of that for no reason steam can take away the merchandise that you legally bought (its doubtful that they will but just being able to scares the hell out of me). Read their terms of use if you dont believe me. I would be more accepting if it just prevented you from buying more games on their service (which has its own issues see 1) but thats not the reality we live in.

3. Long download times. Most of the US has slow download speeds due to poor internet connectivity. I run a DSL and it still takes hours (maybe even up to a day) to download games of 6-10 gigabytes. Due to our infrastructure thats not likely to change anytime soon unless new and cheap technology is discovered or a company spends the money to change it. With a physical copy you might have had to wait 15 minutes (my Dragon age origins physical copy installs in just over 10) but to download on a slow DSL Im looking at an 8 hour wait for Xcom: Enemy unknown (2012).

4. No physical copies. There are perks to physical copies like owning your game, faster install speeds, never having to worry about the servers coming down permanently, and not having to put up with DRM. However since Digital distribution took off companies are no longer releasing physical copies at all. Even retail copies that are sold at walmart for PC still require steam to use. I got xcom as a present last christmas and Im bloody pissed off that Im forced into using steam once again for a product that was legally bought and given to me as a piece of property. There really needs to be a law that says each retail copy is required to have something on it that says "requires steam" or something like it but I know for a fact it doesnt say that on my xcom box

5. DRM: Every service but GoG.com is a glorified DRM system. Even steams light DRM gets in the way of gaming but you cant just say "dont use it" because you might as well say "dont play games on PC"

I love PC gaming. I always have because it allows gamers to customize their hardware to suit their needs and allows for a much wider variety of games. However while PC gaming used to be an open platform digital distribution has completely changed that. You can no longer play what you want on whatever kind of machine you want because you have to use their service's to play the games you dont own. You may think PC gets away with it but youre wrong, we are forced into it. If people want to accept the pitfalls of digital distribution thats ok, its their money and I have no right to tell them how to spend it. However my money says I dont get a choice in their use and Im sure as heck going to speak out against this kind of anti-consumer behavoir. The reality is in most cases I literally can not legally buy a copy of most games I love, to reward developers for making something awesome, to say I want more of this, without using services I dont want to use. Think about that. Its like saying I wont be able to play The elder scrolls 6: Black Marsh if I dont buy it at Walmart. Thats a HUGE problem that at least needs to be addressed
 

RandV80

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Fluffles said:
Isn't the thing that consoles ARE drm themselves? I mean, there is all this on top, but that's the main crux of it all.
Exactly, that's something a lot of people overlook.

I'm not sure exactly how it all worked out historically but I always view the 'DRM' with it's negative connotation as a response that came from the early internet days when people started downloading music for free and corporate interests flipped their lid. Similarly restrictive policies of varying infamy have been adopted (and abandoned) by game publishers since then. Most will hate it because it usually tends to come from big business with a dual purpose of chipping away consumer rights for greater control.

But... in the software and games industry there has always been a level of copy protection. You could not duplicate old console games, early version of Windows and other software always had CD Key's, and for a time in the 90's PC game developers started getting creative by locking you in the game unless you could answer a question that required an instruction manual. None of this was about gaining control over the customer, it was just an honest method of making sure the products weren't being given away and people paid for what they used.

In my opinion this is the type of 'DRM' Steam falls under, a level that has always been around in PC gaming. For example if I were to install my old physical copy of Neverwinter Nights, I'd have to look in the manual for the installation key and do it again for each expansion. Were people in 2000 suggesting we boycott games such as this because they made us type in a license key? That's basically all Steam's DRM is doing, except for most games (there's still those bastards that add their own DRM on top of Steam) it does it automatically in the background for you.
 

jmarquiso

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RhombusHatesYou said:
jmarquiso said:
That said, both Gog.com and Humblebundle have offered a DRM free storefront for indie developers, so we're seeing a lot of that as well.
The best thing about GOG is they don't use a regional pricing scheme anymore.

HEAR THAT, GABE? ONE FUCKING PRICE FOR EVERYONE.

Bah, who am I kidding... Gabe never comes here, he's over at RPS.
Doesn't Robin handle that stuff?
 

jmarquiso

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J Tyran said:
jmarquiso said:
J Tyran said:
wolfyrik said:
snipped tinfoil hattery
snipped Origin stuff.
This. Origin is actually very well made and doesn't take as much Memory as Steam. That said, I rarely open it as I have like 2 games on it. I also never see adverts for EA games because of this.
That's one of Origins flaws, EA basically wanted a walled garden for EA products. People are not collecting games to the same level as Steam, they might have Mass Effect or Battlefield 3 and the Sims/Sim Shitty and thats about it. It doesn't encourage people to log in unless they want to play one of the few Origin games they have.

They need more third parties on there, they also need to pull a Ubisoft. EA where pretty dumb, they pulled all their latest games from other digital distribution services. Gamers then could only buy them retail or from Origin, Ubisoft where smart though. They sell their games through Steam and other places still, the difference is you still need to use U-Play to play the game.

That way they pull people in to their service, sounds shitty but its no different to Steamworks really. You buy a game and you have no choice but to use it, it would be better if U-Play was optional and they used honey instead of vinegar to get people to use it. Offer free DLC and cheap games along with other incentives, build it with good value and people will come.

EA could do the same, sell via as many platforms as they can. Then encourage players over to Origin with good deals and some free stuff.
I've heard that they've had good deals, like 50% or the occasional 75%. They haven't in my region (Germany) whenever I've looked it up. But you'll hear about them from sites like Savy Gamer and or Reddit's /r/gamedeaals and the like. Amazon also sells Origin codes.

That said, they do have a third party library, and it's not bad. The problem is they're competing at mostly the same prices that Steam has. Why would I buy X Indie Game from Origin if I could get it at Steam at the same price? Or from the dev directly?

Ubisoft sells on UPlay, Origin, *and* Steam, btw.

Hell, if they handle the regional pricing issue people apparently still have (they don't), they could easily corner a market not completely taken by Steam yet.
 

Living_Brain

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Feb 8, 2012
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Something that keeps PC gaming alive? Mods. Counter-Strike: Source is still played today, often much more than CS:GO- Why? Because there is an active modded community, making zombie mod, zombie escape, surf, etc. CS:GO doesn't have full modder support yet, and therefore doing worse.

Also servers. On PC you can host a server yourself, you don't have to rely on official server support to play your games.
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Machine Man 1992 said:
Now granted with the next gen looking to make consoles into shitty PC's, instead of like Jim said and a staying slightly behind the curve, this argument may have some merit, but until that time where I no longer have to carry around a sticky note with my system specs written down when I go shopping, I'm staying console.
This is really a non-issue. I've never even heard of someone getting a game that turned out to somehow be incompatible with their pc, nevermind experienced it, and I've bought hundreds of games and have a large number of friends and family who've bought as much if not more than I have. And if you mean in terms of hitting minimum specs, you'd have to be quite ridiculously out of touch in order for you to have no idea whether your hardware is recent enough to be compatible.
 

Machine Man 1992

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uro vii said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Now granted with the next gen looking to make consoles into shitty PC's, instead of like Jim said and a staying slightly behind the curve, this argument may have some merit, but until that time where I no longer have to carry around a sticky note with my system specs written down when I go shopping, I'm staying console.
This is really a non-issue. I've never even heard of someone getting a game that turned out to somehow be incompatible with their pc, nevermind experienced it, and I've bought hundreds of games and have a large number of friends and family who've bought as much if not more than I have. And if you mean in terms of hitting minimum specs, you'd have to be quite ridiculously out of touch in order for you to have no idea whether your hardware is recent enough to be compatible.
Oh well EXCUUUUUSE me, Mister Moneybags! But I don't have access to the vast stores of wealth you clearly have to afford all this stuff! I had to make do with my dad's hand-me-downs, a 500 Mhz rig that chugged on Internet Explorer. Hell it chugged on Half-Life 1. It was barely compatible with stuff from 2004, let alone today. We got rid of it when the whole family switched to Mac's.
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Machine Man 1992 said:
Oh well EXCUUUUUSE me, Mister Moneybags! But I don't have access to the vast stores of wealth you clearly have to afford all this stuff! I had to make do with my dad's hand-me-downs, a 500 Mhz rig that chugged on Internet Explorer. Hell it chugged on Half-Life 1. It was barely compatible with stuff from 2004, let alone today. We got rid of it when the whole family switched to Mac's.
My pc is currently 5 years old and could certainly bought for the fraction of the price of a new console. Perhaps you should try finding out what's going on before you get snarky.
 

Machine Man 1992

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uro vii said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Oh well EXCUUUUUSE me, Mister Moneybags! But I don't have access to the vast stores of wealth you clearly have to afford all this stuff! I had to make do with my dad's hand-me-downs, a 500 Mhz rig that chugged on Internet Explorer. Hell it chugged on Half-Life 1. It was barely compatible with stuff from 2004, let alone today. We got rid of it when the whole family switched to Mac's.
My pc is currently 5 years old and could certainly bought for the fraction of the price of a new console. Perhaps you should try finding out what's going on before you get snarky.
Sorry.

The PC I was talking about was eight years old, and as unstable as a one legged milking stool.

I am not a fan of the platform is what I'm getting at.
 

Ishigami

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jmarquiso said:
DoPo said:
You know that is fine and well but that not exactly what I meant. What I meant is that a game may require a certain type of DRM and that I have no choice in the matter what kind of DRM it is.
If I want to play Skyrim I have to put up with Steam. The only other option is not playing Skyrim.

If you want to play a ?blockbuster? game you have little choice in the matter.
Yes there is choice for really old games and indie games but the very moment you tap into the big budget games it is over.

I browsed through the stores and it seems to be always the same. Rome II Total War on Greenman Gaming requires Steam as does it from Game Fly or Gamersgate. It is simply a code purchase.
I can choose where too buy my code but I can't choose a different type of DRM. For example I can't choose to use Origin instead of Steam.
The publisher/developer made that choice and I have to put up with it.
And that is what I mean when I say that I don't really have a choice on the PC and I don't see why this wouldn't work on consoles as well. Why couldn't Greenman Gaming or Game Fly (or any other of the one million code sellers) sell codes for XBox One games as well?
 

EXos

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People don't seem to understand this video.
It's not about what platform is better.
It's about DRM and that, while not perfect, the current ways DRM is implemented on the PC is better than the it is on consoles.

I'm not even going to mention how much the current PC's trample the next gen. ^^ Just trolling don't reply on these last two sentences. :p
 

Zer_

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Feb 7, 2008
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Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
Going by what you said and LaochFire's post, I will definitely agree with you that Steam's pricing in different currencies is pretty shitty. For anyone living in North America, Steam is a fantastic way to get your games. The prices are almost never higher than what you'll find in a retail store, and more often than not it's cheaper.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Ultratwinkie said:
Consoles don't use graphics cards. They use APUs. a CPU/GPU combo that does both but is inefficient and awful at doing both.

That's why I highly doubt it can beat a 7 series. Its from AMD, a budget tablet APU, that threatens its own current graphics card line up?

Its like saying the Ouya had the potential to to be a Radeon 8 series. Tablet technology gets you tablet results. Tablets are meant to sacrifice power, and performance for less heat and power draw. Both factors mostly irrelevant to a console, which hamstrings the consoles for no reason other than manufacturers being cheap.
The PS4's GPU = 1.84 teraflops. 7850 = 1.76 teraflops. The highest end cards are in the 5 teraflops though. At least, I believe that's what the Titan puts out.

Do you have some sort of information that would make this number to measure output unreliable? A teraflop is a unit of computing speed equal to one million million floating-point operations per second. So it's a standard way to measure computing speed.
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Machine Man 1992 said:
Sorry.

The PC I was talking about was eight years old, and as unstable as a one legged milking stool.

I am not a fan of the platform is what I'm getting at.
It's cool, I certainly know PCs do often get like that. I also understand the extra work of maintaining the machine doesn't appeal to a lot of people, in fact I've only gotten back into PC gaming recently myself due to the fact that I had thought there was no way my PC would be up to snuff these days. I suppose part the point I was making originally is that since I've gotten back into it, I've found PC gaming both quite rewarding, and a lot easier to keep up with, since the ridiculous pace at which tech was advancing at a few years ago seems to have slowed down a fair amount in recent times.