Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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PurePareidolia

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wetnap said:
~The textbook definition of a straw man fallacy backed up by a number of slippery slope arguments~
In essence you confuse matriarchy with feminism when nobody on the latter side, in this case, is arguing the former. Her argument is, and she has said this "women are human beings and should be treated as such" which unless they turned out to be aliens is a phrase that cannot be dogma due to overwhelming evidence. It's not a complete role reversal, it's not female empowerment whether it's appropriate or not, and it's not at the expense of men. You seem to be stuck in the assumption that a word will always have one literal definition despite the meaning its users intend to impart to it, which is the key reason why your arguments turn to fallacy.

You follow up by insisting some stories can't be gamified citing specific authors when really the bare minimum requirement being asked for is a story with at least one non-stereotypical female character with significant relevance to the plot. To suggest such a game is impossible is patently false. This doesn't mean a story in which females have no negative qualities, or in which they conform to no tropes, only a game in which their characters are written with the same care as the male ones.

And you're right, in some games, none of the characters are particularly deep, but their relevance to the plot is noticeably variable. To go by the Mario example, the only recurring female character in the series is a helpless damsel in distress in every single game. Of which there have been a LOT. Even though she's characterized about the same as Mario, her role in the story is only as a reward for the player - she could be replaced by a really expensive pipe wrench and still have as much bearing on the plot.

Not only is Nintendo consistently getting away with INCREDIBLY lazy writing, there's no reason why such a game couldn't have a coherent story at this point, or even have Peach rescue Mario (wouldn't it make more sense for Bowser to capture him anyway?) a la Cotton Alley in Super Meat Boy. Maybe alternate playable characters other than Luigi or something - it really requires no creativity whatsoever at this point. The fact that established tropes have become tradition to the franchise after this point makes the entire series' writing a complete joke, and it's one of the iconic franchises of gaming that carries with it the reputation of our medium. Putting more effort into the writing wouldn't diminish existing gameplay and could easily generate new gameplay opportunities (see again, Super Meat Boy) through expanded context.

Basically, the fact females can be described by standard tropes is irrelevant to those tropes' quality and in all likelihood such tropes will continue to exist, and can even be done well. However an over-reliance on the specific tropes that portray women in a negative light is indicative of a cultural trend, because that's what stories are - the expression of cultural ideals and values through the metaphor of fiction. By promoting media literacy and understanding when and where these tropes are or aren't appropriate, Anita hopes to shift their usage, and hence cultural acceptance away from sexist norms. This can only result in expanding the market for video games and generally making things nicer for everyone. This is unarguably a good thing if only because it can get writers thinking harder before taking your advice and throwing out a half-baked story idea because hey, "if they wanted story they could read a book, right?".

Despite being male I actually do give a damn if the stories I play through suck or not, and I do find it offensive to see pandering female stereotypes thrown at me in the assumption that I'm shallow and easily satisfied by the laziness of others. There would be no ethical dilemma to me asking for money to make a video series about how publishers essentially think everyone's as mysogynistic as they are - if people want to support it and make sure it's done with the care they think it deserves, that's their prerogative. That's the point of kickstarter - people can and do pay what they think the project's worth.

Now, whether or not that made me a whiny loser is up for debate, but contrary to what you seem to believe, and your example, intended market and actual market are not the same thing. Intention and marketing in general is at best a guess made on necessarily flawed information, it's who actually gets the thing that matters. Tropes marketed at my demographic might not necessarily be the ones I want marketed at me, and tropes marketed at other demographics might be. The fact a single trope is not in and of itself a complete package does not seem to have occurred to you - I might buy something for the tropes I like even if it's saddled with ones I don't. Ultimately, I can still like video games that include poor female characters and consider myself a feminist, nobody's criticizing the fact that I say, play Mass Effect 2 which has Miranda in it by saying Miranda is a terrible character. Hell, I say that often enough.

If you're that insecure that you think people complaining about tropes within the stuff you like (remember, a trope is a story's building block, nothing more) is equivalent to them running some sort of conspiracy to ban your chosen forms of enjoyment, then you're exactly the reason we need to promote media literacy and by extension this series.
 

Balobo

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wetnap said:
final judgement is a few thousand will donate to a stupid cause, you see this with politicians all the time, but in the end, games sell hundreds of thousands of copies, which one man, one vote type of democratic legitimacy. kickstarter is more political donation/religious donation type of legitimacy..
b-b-but she needs all this money

how else is she supposed to use Google?
 

runic knight

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It is amazing what you find when you go actively seeking it. I mean, finding a sexist assholes on youtube is just completely backing the idea here. Much like Don Quixote finding his giants in the windmills. Fittingly, most youtube commentators have about as much purpose or effect as someone flailing their arms around uselessly...

Comments like this though
The trolls only managed to prove to everyone that sexism in gaming is indeed a huge problem.
get under my skin. No, the trolls only prove that youtube has trolls, a statement that was not needed or unknown. This is akin to saying the Westburo Baptist is proof that christianity has a problem with its racism, homophobia and misogyny as a whole. Blaming the whole for the vocal minority is just an annoying fallacy and seems almost like prodding.

Looking at youtube comments as evidence of anything will yield results. Honestly, you can find support for feminism, or against it, for religion, or against it, showing the depths of human hate and bile in one way or another, regardless of race, sexuality or gender. There are assholes for nearly EVERY cause. Sort of shows equality of all humans in how there are assholes regardless what ideal you stand behind. Percentage of composition will vary, admittedly.

Honestly, I think people would be better off calling the kick starter out for being a money grub under the guise of feminism. This topic has been done to death, and a one-sided, blatantly sexist view that uses it's own confirmation bias as evidence of it's relevance is beyond worthless. It is outright harmful to the discussion.
Is there issues in gaming relating to gender? Oh hell yes! Is this kickstarter doing a damn bit of good on the topic? Not a chance. One could point to aspects complained about in the video with a different lens and see different parallels. Smurfette and a possible biblical reference as her supposed purpose as being someone to tempt, a fairly common story telling trope there.

In a bit of irony, the kick starter seems to almost be trying to reinforce the stereotype about both gamers being misogynists or that of feminists blowing small shit out of proportion and losing sight of the big picture. It drags the debate back into a familiar, and beaten to death, parody of actual discussion, to the point of possibly feeding hate and causing any debate on the subject to be shelved as people who would be having those discussions have to pull the seething mass of assholes on both sides off one another while they foam at the mouth.


I do think people should protest the project, if they feel it comes off as sexist in it's own right, and seems to, as said before, drag the discussion back 20 years. There is some validity behind the idea. The mention of tropes used and as a result reinforcing ideals has merit. But that is NOT an issue about women alone and tackling the issue as such comes off as a little selective. Some would dare say sexist. Race, sexuality, religion, gender, all do pull from the grab bag of tropes, as video games as a general rule have less complicated stories, and thus draw from a smaller amount of common tropes. Simpler stories such as a lot of game plots (especially true of older franchises that will keep with story) will use similar character types and tropes as other games.

Right now there is a bit of a perfect storm of reasons why tropes are relied on in gaming. On one front, you have the history of games, where the simplest of simple stories are still reflected still, even long after mario first finished his quest for Paulina. In order to stay true to the fans, they tend to keep the story, and by result, the character tropes. Since those stories tended to be simplest, fairy tale like, they reflect the tropes of that sort of story, with women getting more traditional rules, or outright treated as prizes.
On the next front you have the developers. Since they are out for profit, and since they look to the past for profit, they tend to try to duplicate the past success. This results in the same tropes, or attempts at exploitation outright. Neither is kind to women, but neither is kind to storymaking in general.
Finally you have the most overlooked aspect, that videogames are still seen in a variety of ways. They ARE a story telling medium, but for so long they have not been seen as such. As a result, stories told can range the gambit from epic to utter shit, with the latter more common. As explained before, simplier stories result in more familiar tropes, and those tropes concerning women reflect their age. And indeed, a lot of the tropes ARE old. The sexy murder machine reflected in amazons, valkeries, etc. The damsel in distress a common theme in fairy tales and long before. These are products of the history of story telling itself, concentrating on them in gaming seems to be missing the forest for the trees. If someone adapts an old popular story with a damsel in distress trope, does that make it sexist? Does staying true to the story regardless it doesn't favorably portray a woman mean the game itself is sexist? Is it racist to make a movie true to a book that uses blatantly racist tropes? Is it made worse because the medium in which a story is told is interactive?

I think if this project wants to get into something really deep, if it wants to sink its teeth into something important and spur conversation and discussion, it should pick its target better. Discuss media and story telling in general. Discuss the lack of creativity in all media lately, the promotion of tropes of all variety, and trope history in storytelling as an artform in all incarnations. Look into how people go back into old literature, old fairy tales, even old legends for inspiration in games and how THAT influences games. Look into business practices that stagnate and avoid innovation and change. This is not a matter of genders nearly as much as it is the soul of games and the art itself. Concentrating on women in games, and seeming to both hint at so much and yet miss so much at the same time... it just seems like wasted potential on the topic in order to generate a competitiveness relating to the controversy of the topic itself. Why spend such time, why request such resources, when you are only covering a facet of this from an obviously biased point of a repeatedly rehashed topic when it can be so much more? So much there to cover and delve into and it just feels like she wants to skim the surface about how women fall into the same tropes, something no one really denies.


On a side note, how many dark, quiet, brooding heros and overly muscled strong military men have been pumped into games in the last several years? I'll take Jade from beyond good and evil over one of those any day.
 

Prosis

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Holy crap.

145k. What is she going to spend it all on?
I'm honestly worried for her. If she can't spend it all on making the documentary, does it count as conning?
Since as I understand it, conning is receiving funds in the name of something-be it a product, cause, or whatnot- and then pocketing the money or using it for something else.

I know its all donations, but its still deceit if she doesn't use it as she's claimed she will.

And unless she can make a documentary series worth 145k (which seems WAY beyond the scope of her original project), wouldn't there being some legal backlash?

I'm not wondering this due to feminism or antifeminism or whatever. Really, any unprofessional youtube based documentary that has gathered this much funding would make me wonder.

Any ideas if this counts as con(wo)manship? Or is pledged money not necessarily spent money?
 

Kilyle

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Calibanbutcher said:
Kilyle said:
I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.
Well, since he asked for examples, I decided to chip in a bit:

(examples)

You know what's kind of weird:
I only started thinking about video game characters breasts, because it was made a topic here.
Never really cared much about breasts in video games before.
Yeah, I know. Video games make for such interesting conversation topics, huh?

...Have I really been away from Warcraft that long? You're right that the breasts aren't as uniformly huge as I remember (most are still quite large, though). The one-model-per-race thing still annoys me, and I think some of that annoyance transferred into other areas.

I really would like options other than musclebound for both Human and Night Elf. Spellcasters shouldn't be muscle men, honestly. Heck, I once was trying to make a version of a character I love from a book, and made him a female Night Elf because the male Night Elf was that far removed from the physical form of the character I was trying to create. So it's not that my only complaint is about the female forms.

And, really, SkellgrimOrDave? The undead female is worth a mention? "Oh hey, this one here with the flesh literally falling off her bones, with the terminal hunched shoulders and overall shape of a person about ninety, she's the one you could be playing if you want small breasts!" Sigh. (But yeah, your overall point is sound.)

Anyway. Three people gave me some examples, which is good. Unfortunately I don't recognize most of the games mentioned. And Terra? We're back to small/cartoony characters whose secondary sexual attributes only become apparent in artwork outside the game, which isn't what I'm talking about. (I do like the FFVI artwork.)

Aerith is actually one of the best examples you've thrown at me, so kudos for that. I never much cared for FFVII, but the pics that Bing pulls up show, what, an A-cup? Excellent. I'd love to see more along those lines.

The thing is, games are a chance to play as something you're not, and every time I get the chance to choose between D-Cup Girl, C-Cup Girl, and F-Cup Girl (and possibly Girl Who Isn't Old Enough to Have Breasts Yet and Is Interminably Chirpy), it annoys me. I have a figure pretty similar to the Dwarf Female on WoW, and dang it, I want to fantasize about being a person who doesn't have to deal with recurring back pain!

As for male, aged, and ugly: As mentioned, I want more options. Back when I was on the Rock Band forums, I voiced support for avatars that looked like Meatloaf, or several country singers I could have named at the time - older, fatter, with pot bellies. I don't like being able to play only young, thin avatars. Heck, my friends and I have dubbed the thinner varieties the "Starved in Africa look." Humans have a wide variety of shapes and sizes and what I'm asking for is that more of them be acknowledged, especially by games that allow us to choose our forms (as Rock Band does). We've finally got the computing power to do much of this on the fly (as games like City of Heroes show), yet most games continue to cling to the lowest common denominator of "beauty," thin females with big boobs and over-muscular guys or slim but fit teenager types.

(Note: I think it's Skyrim that I played at a friend's house, and the elves there look butt-ugly. Most of them. I don't think they were going for "ugly" but that's how their faces turned out; there's only a couple that I can even stand enough to stick on a character. When a race isn't meant to be "the ugly ones" then I'm okay with them having a couple uglier variants. And the ability to add disfiguring scars is actually pretty neat.)

As the gaming demographic continues to mature, it's spreading out into a much less uniform group. And when you've got people from different backgrounds, they're going to want different things. So yeah, choice is good.
 

Schadrach

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PurePareidolia said:
In essence you confuse matriarchy with feminism when nobody on the latter side, in this case, is arguing the former. Her argument is, and she has said this "women are human beings and should be treated as such" which unless they turned out to be aliens is a phrase that cannot be dogma due to overwhelming evidence.
Ah, but you see, that's the version of "feminism" that practically no one actually agrees with. Most of the things that give people negative views of feminism are what happens after you attach "therefore, ..." to the end.

PurePareidolia said:
You follow up by insisting some stories can't be gamified citing specific authors when really the bare minimum requirement being asked for is a story with at least one non-stereotypical female character with significant relevance to the plot. To suggest such a game is impossible is patently false. This doesn't mean a story in which females have no negative qualities, or in which they conform to no tropes, only a game in which their characters are written with the same care as the male ones.
Some stories can't be readily gamified. What I find interesting is that there's another thread on here about "female power fantasies" which is basically aiming at "what kind of woman is an example of a female power fantasy, as most impossibly built male characters are supposedly" (since one of Anita's videos is going to be about how it's wrong and sexist to drop in a female character in what would otherwise nominally be a male role -- the "man with boobs" trope), and I think the first few answers were along the lines of the Greek Medea, who would be difficult to build compelling gameplay for. I would throw money at a Kickstarter trying to create a game built around social manipulation though, if they had a prototype with a demonstration of how they intended to do so and it appeared to have any promise at all, or the team was composed of people with any experience at all (that aren't Peter Molyneux).

PurePareidolia said:
And you're right, in some games, none of the characters are particularly deep, but their relevance to the plot is noticeably variable. To go by the Mario example, the only recurring female character in the series is a helpless damsel in distress in every single game. Of which there have been a LOT. Even though she's characterized about the same as Mario, her role in the story is only as a reward for the player - she could be replaced by a really expensive pipe wrench and still have as much bearing on the plot.

Not only is Nintendo consistently getting away with INCREDIBLY lazy writing, there's no reason why such a game couldn't have a coherent story at this point, or even have Peach rescue Mario (wouldn't it make more sense for Bowser to capture him anyway?) a la Cotton Alley in Super Meat Boy. Maybe alternate playable characters other than Luigi or something - it really requires no creativity whatsoever at this point. The fact that established tropes have become tradition to the franchise after this point makes the entire series' writing a complete joke, and it's one of the iconic franchises of gaming that carries with it the reputation of our medium. Putting more effort into the writing wouldn't diminish existing gameplay and could easily generate new gameplay opportunities (see again, Super Meat Boy) through expanded context.
There was a game in which Peach was the player character and she was saving Mario. It was called Super Princess Peach and was a DS title. Instead of the standard array of powerups, she had four buttons on the touchscreen for different moods. For example, anger made her burst into flame, and sad made her cry out sheets of water. It made me wonder what psychiatric meds Bowser used on her in the other games to keep his castle intact.

PurePareidolia said:
Basically, the fact females can be described by standard tropes is irrelevant to those tropes' quality and in all likelihood such tropes will continue to exist, and can even be done well. However an over-reliance on the specific tropes that portray women in a negative light is indicative of a cultural trend, because that's what stories are - the expression of cultural ideals and values through the metaphor of fiction. By promoting media literacy and understanding when and where these tropes are or aren't appropriate, Anita hopes to shift their usage, and hence cultural acceptance away from sexist norms. This can only result in expanding the market for video games and generally making things nicer for everyone. This is unarguably a good thing if only because it can get writers thinking harder before taking your advice and throwing out a half-baked story idea because hey, "if they wanted story they could read a book, right?".
This makes me wonder if you are familiar with her other videos. I fully expect the content of each video to amount to "This is a trope, here are 2-4 examples of this trope. NO! BAD! SEXIST! The End."

PurePareidolia said:
If you're that insecure that you think people complaining about tropes within the stuff you like (remember, a trope is a story's building block, nothing more) is equivalent to them running some sort of conspiracy to ban your chosen forms of enjoyment, then you're exactly the reason we need to promote media literacy and by extension this series.
However, we are also talking about a group of people who do occasionally pull a "Kill It With Fire" campaign on various pieces of art and entertainment, to varying degrees of success. The example I gave earlier in this thread was that tentacle hentai card game that they pulled an organized campaign to push Kickstarter to cancel it's project, then pulled an organized but unsuccessful campaign to try to get PayPal to freeze their account.

Kilyle said:
Calibanbutcher said:
Kilyle said:
I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.
Well, since he asked for examples, I decided to chip in a bit:

(examples)

You know what's kind of weird:
I only started thinking about video game characters breasts, because it was made a topic here.
Never really cared much about breasts in video games before.
Yeah, I know. Video games make for such interesting conversation topics, huh?

...Have I really been away from Warcraft that long? You're right that the breasts aren't as uniformly huge as I remember (most are still quite large, though). The one-model-per-race thing still annoys me, and I think some of that annoyance transferred into other areas.

I really would like options other than musclebound for both Human and Night Elf. Spellcasters shouldn't be muscle men, honestly. Heck, I once was trying to make a version of a character I love from a book, and made him a female Night Elf because the male Night Elf was that far removed from the physical form of the character I was trying to create. So it's not that my only complaint is about the female forms.

And, really, SkellgrimOrDave? The undead female is worth a mention? "Oh hey, this one here with the flesh literally falling off her bones, with the terminal hunched shoulders and overall shape of a person about ninety, she's the one you could be playing if you want small breasts!" Sigh. (But yeah, your overall point is sound.)

Anyway. Three people gave me some examples, which is good. Unfortunately I don't recognize most of the games mentioned. And Terra? We're back to small/cartoony characters whose secondary sexual attributes only become apparent in artwork outside the game, which isn't what I'm talking about. (I do like the FFVI artwork.)

Aerith is actually one of the best examples you've thrown at me, so kudos for that. I never much cared for FFVII, but the pics that Bing pulls up show, what, an A-cup? Excellent. I'd love to see more along those lines.

The thing is, games are a chance to play as something you're not, and every time I get the chance to choose between D-Cup Girl, C-Cup Girl, and F-Cup Girl (and possibly Girl Who Isn't Old Enough to Have Breasts Yet and Is Interminably Chirpy), it annoys me. I have a figure pretty similar to the Dwarf Female on WoW, and dang it, I want to fantasize about being a person who doesn't have to deal with recurring back pain!
I don't recall the women in Heavy Rain having unusually large breasts either.

Kilyle said:
(Note: I think it's Skyrim that I played at a friend's house, and the elves there look butt-ugly. Most of them. I don't think they were going for "ugly" but that's how their faces turned out; there's only a couple that I can even stand enough to stick on a character. When a race isn't meant to be "the ugly ones" then I'm okay with them having a couple uglier variants. And the ability to add disfiguring scars is actually pretty neat.)

As the gaming demographic continues to mature, it's spreading out into a much less uniform group. And when you've got people from different backgrounds, they're going to want different things. So yeah, choice is good.
No, the butt-ugly elves are a common thing in the Elder Scrolls series, it's a whole "entirely different facial geometry" thing where they tend to have longer and more angular faces than humans do.
 

Meatspinner

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Warman166 said:
Wow, over 1000 comments, this kinda stuff really gets peoples blood boiling, doesn't it?
Welcome to the Escapist forums!

Here's your complementary stick. You can either put it in the mud or lodge it in your ass, your chose.
 

Eyelicker

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Has the person who read this ever been on youtube? Serious question. Because taking some ignorant comments from youtube to strengthen your position is not an argument and is journalism at it's most lazy. Comments anywhere on the internet are usually the most bigoted ignorant pits of immature uninformed filth so make like the rest of us and just IGNORE THEM! Of course there is a loud minority of horrifically sexist trolls on the internet, this is not news. I can almost guarantee that these vile voices with blatant misogynistic and anti-sematic comments are from young (12-16) bitter angry males with no power in the real world. Therefore, unpleasant, but not worth noting, or responding to.

Of course, it's obvious that the plan of this kickstarter from the start was to stir up the internet cest pit for notoriety and to play the victim card. The turn of events seem to have been:

1: Kickstarter begins, is promoted purposefully by trying to get as much attention from the negative underbelly of the internet so hateful comments fly.

2: Articles like this one note the comments, claim sexism in games is a problem, gamers are sexist man-children, if you disagree with her you are a sexist mysogynist pig.

3: Actually intelligent rational people (like I'm glad to see many of these comments fall into) notice this trick and call her and the gaming journalists out on purposefully kicking the hornet's nest for attention.

The genuinely sexist people and internet trolls are an unpleasant fact of the internet, have little bearing on reality or the gaming industry, and should simply be ignored, NOT used to fuel your ridiculous feminist circlejerk.

These "tropes" arn't just in games, they are endemic thoughout film and literature too! BRB, all my childhood fairytales are sexist, brb, shakespere is sexist, brb, pretty much every film and tv show ever is sexist.

The problem isn't sexism, just lazy writing, I could name 5 male tropes too, it means nothing. As well as that there are tons of female characters in games that don't fall into these categories.

By logical extension of this woman's ridiculous argument, any game featuring many muscular good looking men is sexist against men. How should woman be treated in games? The only time I've actually thought "that's sexist" at the gaming industry was that hitman trailer with the nuns. DOA dosn't really count because it's pretty much just porn. Ogling well rendered breasts isn't sexist, just rather bizarre.

Ridiculously proportioned females and muscular males isn't sexist. It's a game, you aren't constrained by reality, it's no surprise everything is made in the creators ideal of the human form. Of course it's getting away from these mary-sueish stereotypes, with improving writing and character design, but still, it's only natural for everyone to be good looking in games (unless it's being made a point of that they arn't) because the creators simply arn't constrained by reality. THIS ISN'T SEXIST.

Let some dumb feminist minority give this woman money to make her little circle jerk, it won't change anything either way. Now let's get on with out lives.

tremas said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExCdOImmVA

My thoughts on the matter.

And yes, she probably keep the extra money in her pocket instead of doing something that could help someone who knight need like battered housewives, Children in need, something like that.
A fantastic video friend. Say a lot about the supposed "impartial" nature of the escapist that you were banned for posting it.
 

Fusioncode9

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Great! Now this chick gets 150,000$ to put in her pocket. She didn't need a kickstarter to do a few internet videos about women in video games. Extra Credits does that kind of stuff for free every week. God I'm starting to hate kickstarter.
 

PurePareidolia

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Schadrach said:
Ah, but you see, that's the version of "feminism" that practically no one actually agrees with. Most of the things that give people negative views of feminism are what happens after you attach "therefore, ..." to the end.
It doesn't matter how many people agree with it because that's what's being argued in this instance.
Schadrach said:
Some stories can't be readily gamified. What I find interesting is that there's another thread on here about "female power fantasies" which is basically aiming at "what kind of woman is an example of a female power fantasy, as most impossibly built male characters are supposedly" (since one of Anita's videos is going to be about how it's wrong and sexist to drop in a female character in what would otherwise nominally be a male role -- the "man with boobs" trope), and I think the first few answers were along the lines of the Greek Medea, who would be difficult to build compelling gameplay for. I would throw money at a Kickstarter trying to create a game built around social manipulation though, if they had a prototype with a demonstration of how they intended to do so and it appeared to have any promise at all, or the team was composed of people with any experience at all (that aren't Peter Molyneux).
I would also throw money at Kickstarter for that game. Sounds fun.
Like I said though I'm not talking about "certain stories", just giving equal character treatment to characters of all genders which is perfectly OK. I think "what would be a female power fantasy" is only kind of a tangential question - plenty of male power fantasy characters are just one dimensional stereotypes based on what they do - an actual character is more than just their role so naturally if the character isn't described but the role is, it's probably going to be a simplistic trope. Not that it's a bad question, but that's probably why its difficult to get a satisfactory answer.

Also Medea? Seriously? She was a child-sibling-killing witch whose only motivation was to get in Jason's pants, and then he cheated on her. Powerful character (and one I like personally), but all she did was betray her family in ways that stopped being sympathetic around the time "we can get away if they're having a funeral for my kid brother" seemed like a good idea.
Schadrach said:
There was a game in which Peach was the player character and she was saving Mario. It was called Super Princess Peach and was a DS title. Instead of the standard array of powerups, she had four buttons on the touchscreen for different moods. For example, anger made her burst into flame, and sad made her cry out sheets of water. It made me wonder what psychiatric meds Bowser used on her in the other games to keep his castle intact.
Wow, I did not know that.
Schadrach said:
This makes me wonder if you are familiar with her other videos. I fully expect the content of each video to amount to "This is a trope, here are 2-4 examples of this trope. NO! BAD! SEXIST! The End."
How would you do a video designed to highlight sexist tropes?
Schadrach said:
However, we are also talking about a group of people who do occasionally pull a "Kill It With Fire" campaign on various pieces of art and entertainment, to varying degrees of success. The example I gave earlier in this thread was that tentacle hentai card game that they pulled an organized campaign to push Kickstarter to cancel it's project, then pulled an organized but unsuccessful campaign to try to get PayPal to freeze their account.
This is true, but I wasn't talking abut them specifically.

Also the ugly elves thing is the fact that Bethesda can't do nice looking people at the best of times.
 

RaikuFA

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Fusioncode9 said:
Great! Now this chick gets 150,000$ to put in her pocket. She didn't need a kickstarter to do a few internet videos about women in video games. Extra Credits does that kind of stuff for free every week. God I'm starting to hate kickstarter.
Its not kickstarters fault, its just a tool used to help out people.
 

marche45

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Nadhammer said:
1: I hate militant feminism. I hope that this project fizzles.
She is not militant,closer to brutally honest.
Though we don't agree on suckerpunch.
 

Spearmaster

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minuialear said:
Spearmaster said:
So what we really need is more women to get involved in the creation of games so they can create games/characters that would be a more positive role model for women and a more proper representation of women for men.
Yeah, although the problem I see with that (aside from the us v them problem you mention below, which is definitely an issue I also see happening) is that it takes the pressure off of (usually male, white, heterosexual) writers/designers/etc to make characters from minority demographics, such as women and ethnic minorities, that aren't caricatures of negative stereotypes. It's basically saying "Well, if you want characters that aren't negative stereotypes, you better make them yourselves; we're going to continue using the stereotypes in the meantime."

One excuse I keep hearing is that men can't write good female characters because they aren't female themselves. But if Joss Whedon can do it (Buffy, Echo, etc), and if the writers of Half Life 2 could do it (Alyx Vance), and if the Metroid (original; not Other M) could do it with Samus, and if dozens of other male writers or male-dominated writing staffs could do the same for various other good female characters, I see that as a cop-out. They could do it, if they were good writers. So maybe there's where we should start.

I think more women (and men) need to support games with a more proper view of women and be vocal about it. Tell developers and publishers "this is what we want and we will support more like it". not try to tear down and attack games that don't because that creates a negative backlash that leaves no room for a proper dialog because it baits trolls and radicals and the common fool, which is what her video and her promotion of seems to be doing, weather that was her intention or not I cant say for sure but if it was not she did not think it through very well.
That's true; playing Devil's Advocate though, by focusing only on the good examples and not criticizing the bad, a lot of people who don't understand that there's a problem with most other games see that as just further proof that games are fine. Similar to how talking about how awesome it is that Obama is half-black and president has allowed people to assume that black people are now completely equal to other races in society, because there's a positive example of a black guy (using the one-drop rule, at least) becoming president. The bad needs to be criticized so that people are reminded that the bad still exists, and can discuss why it's bad and how future things could become less bad.
but putting pressure on men to create female characters to women's standards creates even more of a divide than women creating something for them selves.
Is not the point of feminism equal rights? Where women have an equal right to create female characters as they see fit just like men do. Not to use it as a sword which to point at men and force a woman's ideals into their creative process.

On the examples of men writing female characters...well saying that someone else "could" and did do something is not a reason why everyone else in the field "should have to" do something.
Also no, a man "cant" know how women idealize themselves because they are not a woman they can only try and understand, most of the time its not a sexist view of women from creators but a misunderstood one. Some women in society do empower themselves using large breasts, skimpy clothing and sex appeal.
Writing is an art form and when you start forcing the hand of artist to create something someone else likes better or feels more comfortable with you have just destroyed artistic creativity.

I think many people know there is a problem with the way women are portrayed in video games or at least that many women are not happy with it but publishers look mainly at the bottom line and without support and a group telling them why they support a game with a proper female character/s they will assume that it just did well and not care either way but if they felt a game sold more because of support from women they might actually look at the issue as a selling point and find a way to tap into that market.
 

Belated

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This post is going to be a bit sloppy, because I've restated this argument several times before and I'm tired and need to go to bed. Sorry about that:

"Sexy" and "sexist" are not the same thing. Just because female characters in games are sexy, doesn't mean they're "reinforcing" sexism. The characters just HAPPEN to be sexy. It wouldn't be offensive if the men were sexy and the women were all strong. The only thing offensive about women in games being sexy is that MOST games happen to treat women like that. And these tropes certainly aren't "harmful". I'm not against what she's doing, but I hate how people like her call stuff like that "harmful". Fiction does not magically rub fairy dust in your eyes to turn you into a misogynist. It's not the content that matters, it's the context in which it's presented.

In other words, it may be sexist if the game means to imply that women are SUPPOSED to be scantily-clad at all times. But if a game merely contains women who just HAPPEN to be scantily-clad, that's not automatically sexist, and it's definitely not "harmful."

For example, the "damsel in distress" trope. Yes, it's sexist that it's always "saving the princess", never "saving the prince". But one particular princess who needs saving is not automatically sexist. It is physically possible to kidnap a woman, thereby putting her in a state of distress. Therefore, the "damsel in distress" trope is not sexist. It's just a possible scenario. It's also possible to kidnap a guy, thus putting him in a state of distress. It's not sexist to merely have a woman who's in distress. The sexism exists in the fact that this is the most common scenario, not in the scenario itself. In other words, simply HAVING a "damsel in distress" doesn't automatically make your game sexist. You just HAPPENED to make it a woman who needs saving. To say that "damsel in distress" is sexist is to imply that it's ONLY acceptable for a man to be in distress.

Now, sexiness. Yes, women are often in revealing outfits when it comes to games. Is this sexist? No. Not in and of itself. Who are we to judge what a person should or shouldn't wear? How much skin is or isn't decent? You need to realize, the standards we apply to clothing and sexuality are completely arbitrary. Yes, it's true that the revealing outfit is there to attract horny male gamers. But that isn't wrong. Exploring your sexuality through fantasy isn't wrong. Dare I say it's even healthy to fantasize. The sexism comes in with the fact that there aren't more scantily-clad men in games. Sure the ladies get Dante. In Tekken there's Kazuya. In Soul Calibur... I dunno, do chicks dig Mitsurugi? Anyway, there are a few attractive men in games, but not nearly as many as there are attractive women. THAT'S the sexism. Not the sexiness itself, but the imbalance of it. Therefore, the solution is definitely not to remove existing female tropes from games. Because as we've established, the trope itself is not sexist, just the context. There are solutions though: Make more games with sexy men, and make more games that break female stereotypes.

I support this lady's efforts in her videos. However, I felt the need to do a little damage control because she seems to be operating under the misconception that it's automatically sexist to have a female character in a game who JUST HAPPENS to be weak, or JUST HAPPENS to be sexy. To say that these things are sexist is to imply that all women absolutely must be strong, or absolutely cannot be attractive at all. But that's even less realistic. Because some women ARE weak, and some women ARE attractive. Just like some men are weak and some men are attractive.
 

Aurora Firestorm

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Just popping in to say that none of this surprises me. Gabe's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory is exactly the reason this happens.
 

Schadrach

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PurePareidolia said:
Schadrach said:
Ah, but you see, that's the version of "feminism" that practically no one actually agrees with. Most of the things that give people negative views of feminism are what happens after you attach "therefore, ..." to the end.
It doesn't matter how many people agree with it because that's what's being argued in this instance.
There's a problem with that. The same people who push the other stuff that some people find objectionable fall back on the definition that no one does if anyone disagrees with them, precisely because virtually everyone agrees with it. Essentially that if you don't agree with horrible idea X, then you clearly don't believe men and women are, or even remotely should be equal.

PurePareidolia said:
Schadrach said:
Some stories can't be readily gamified. What I find interesting is that there's another thread on here about "female power fantasies" which is basically aiming at "what kind of woman is an example of a female power fantasy, as most impossibly built male characters are supposedly" (since one of Anita's videos is going to be about how it's wrong and sexist to drop in a female character in what would otherwise nominally be a male role -- the "man with boobs" trope), and I think the first few answers were along the lines of the Greek Medea, who would be difficult to build compelling gameplay for. I would throw money at a Kickstarter trying to create a game built around social manipulation though, if they had a prototype with a demonstration of how they intended to do so and it appeared to have any promise at all, or the team was composed of people with any experience at all (that aren't Peter Molyneux).
I would also throw money at Kickstarter for that game. Sounds fun.
Like I said though I'm not talking about "certain stories", just giving equal character treatment to characters of all genders which is perfectly OK. I think "what would be a female power fantasy" is only kind of a tangential question - plenty of male power fantasy characters are just one dimensional stereotypes based on what they do - an actual character is more than just their role so naturally if the character isn't described but the role is, it's probably going to be a simplistic trope. Not that it's a bad question, but that's probably why its difficult to get a satisfactory answer.

Also Medea? Seriously? She was a child-sibling-killing witch whose only motivation was to get in Jason's pants, and then he cheated on her. Powerful character (and one I like personally), but all she did was betray her family in ways that stopped being sympathetic around the time "we can get away if they're having a funeral for my kid brother" seemed like a good idea.
Honestly, I think there would have been less backlash from a "we want to make a game with a strong female character as an example of how strong female characters can be written" Kickstarter than the "I want thousands of dollars to make a handful of YouTube videos with equipment I already have which, if history is any indication are going to take the form of 'Look at this trope! NO! BAD! SEXIST! How to do it right? *crickets chirping*'."

So, is the argument that female characters need more/better writing than male ones, or else it's sexist? Or that game characters need more/better writing in general, in which case making it about sexism is just drawing attention away from the real problem (in order to attract trolls and funding from people who will pour money on feminist playing cards if given the opportunity)? Because you can't just place a female character in a typically male role because that's one of the very tropes Anita is arguing against, the "man with boobs" trope. So, clearly, for her to feel a female character is not innately sexist, it has to be built to some other standard, and a drastically different character archetype is going to have different narratives built around it, in part because the more common narratives don't fit as well.

And yes, Medea was one of their first examples. Not exactly a great role model, but that was where the thread went early on.

PurePareidolia said:
Schadrach said:
There was a game in which Peach was the player character and she was saving Mario. It was called Super Princess Peach and was a DS title. Instead of the standard array of powerups, she had four buttons on the touchscreen for different moods. For example, anger made her burst into flame, and sad made her cry out sheets of water. It made me wonder what psychiatric meds Bowser used on her in the other games to keep his castle intact.
Wow, I did not know that.
An example from it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkVkz4iL4SE

I strongly suspect that when Anita created those stickers for her Kickstarter that have the potential to make Nintendo send her a nasty letter (which would in turn be proof of misogyny in the gaming community) that a game in which Peach saves the day through the power of mood swings was not what she had in mind, though. Strangely enough, I believe this version of Peach is in her intro video, isn't it?

PurePareidolia said:
Schadrach said:
This makes me wonder if you are familiar with her other videos. I fully expect the content of each video to amount to "This is a trope, here are 2-4 examples of this trope. NO! BAD! SEXIST! The End."
How would you do a video designed to highlight sexist tropes?
So very many people in this thread have implied that they expect more than that. Hell, I'd be happy to see some positive advice. It's a trend I've noticed with advice from "feminist sources" (defined here as any source that primarily discusses feminism or strongly aligns their views and positions with feminism -- so places like Shakesville and Feministing count, as do RadicalHub, NSWATM, and Skepchick for a few more examples), they always seem to give negative advice (the variety describing what not to do) without ever suggesting alternative behavior. I would *love* to see an example in which there was a "and here is how to do this in a not sexist/rapey/misogynist way." This complaint is not only limited to media criticism either, it seems to be a general trend.

PurePareidolia said:
Schadrach said:
However, we are also talking about a group of people who do occasionally pull a "Kill It With Fire" campaign on various pieces of art and entertainment, to varying degrees of success. The example I gave earlier in this thread was that tentacle hentai card game that they pulled an organized campaign to push Kickstarter to cancel it's project, then pulled an organized but unsuccessful campaign to try to get PayPal to freeze their account.
This is true, but I wasn't talking abut them specifically.
It's not the only example of that behavior. In fact, most of the cases of "feminists vs gamers" have generally involved one of those campaigns. This Kickstarter is one of the few exceptions.

PurePareidolia said:
Also the ugly elves thing is the fact that Bethesda can't do nice looking people at the best of times.
Their elves are always especially ugly though. That TES elves are always especially ugly and are so in the same general ways (abnormally long, angular faces, for example) makes me think it's a design choice. As opposed to Khajiit or Argonians who are all over the place across the series.
 

Trekkie

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look up the agent orange files:

http://www.manwomanmyth.com/feminism/feminisms-underbelly-the-agent-orange-files/

and The Femathiest:

http://thefemitheist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/allow-me-to-introduce-myself.html

and tell me there isn't discrimination against men.
 

Trekkie

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ACman said:
Trekkie said:
exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.
So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?


Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.
WOW, okay, read it again because i don't think the phrase false accusation means what you think it mean. a false accusation of rape is when someone lies about someone raping them when that rape didn't actually happen.

and i stick by my last comment, if women didn't make a false accusation of rape, then the time and money wasted on investigating that lie could be used to solve an actual crime like.... oh lets say.... a rape that actually happened.
 

Trekkie

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Hollyday said:
Trekkie said:
plus what dose the human-doing message do for men besides tell us were nothing but an appliance to be used to extract resources?
Personally I'd rather be an 'appliance', who is able to show their worth through intelligence, strength, will power, loyalty (and general ability to hold down a job) than as a doll. Can you imagine feeling like your entire self worth comes from an accident of genetics? IT SUCKS! I think I have a pretty healthy self-image but even I get worried when I put on a little bit of weight. Women who treat men like walking talking wallets disgust me, but you can't compare men's attraction coming from actions to women's attraction coming from looks. In this sense men are active and in charge of their destinies and women are completely passive and dependent on genetics/possible future plastic surgery.

For a bit of a laugh, check out a glimpse of what it would be like if men were sexualised in the same way as women are all the time:

Trekkie said:
really because I cant think of one game where the female chars arent seen as strong and independent and who don't need help from anyone.
....... now that was just silly, wasn't it :)

Some may be strong. Some may even be independent. But good god are they cliched. You did name some characters I really like - Ashley Williams and Liara T'Soni for example, but for every Ashley there are 3 Bayonettas, Ivys, troops of DOA girls and a coachload of sexy demon villainesses (oh, and a Miranda, EDI, Samara and Morinth. Though actually I do really like Mass Effect!). It's not that these portrayals of women are a problem in and of themselves, but when it becomes the norm I think that it is.

Oh, and reading through this thread to catch up on what's being discussed I feel sick to my stomach. The attitudes of some posters regarding rape and its under/over-prosecution is unbelievable. I can't even begin to fathom some people's views on this, and I really don't want to.
im not just talking about how women view men im talking about society in general. for instance for a man to vote in the US he is required to be willing to give his life for his country by signing up to the draft. if he dose not he gives up a number of rights that women get by default, for instance if you don't register you'll find it very difficult to vote aswell. not to mention your not seen as a real man if you don't go when your called up.

not to mention men dont get any real choice in what to do in life. its either work full time or called a looser or not a real man. women however can work, they can be a stay at home parent, they can even just be a house wife without kids and no-one has a go at them.

oh and it may not be all women who go for "succesful guys" but most do, last year match.com released their finding that 80% of women would only go for men who make more money than they do and who have an equal or greater education than they do.

also how would you like to be told that your not needed in society and that you are inadequate because you are male by people like Harriet Harman who is quoted as saying "men can not be trusted to run thing on their own" and "if I was PM there wouldn't be enough airports for all the men to leave" and Hillary Clinton who has said "men are not the victims of war, it is the women they left behind" oh yeah because I guess they're just inconveniently dead right? now i don't know about you but i thought the primary victims of war where the people who die. not the people who lived.

and not to mention people like this: http://thefemitheist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/allow-me-to-introduce-myself.html who think that men are inherently evil and should all be castrated.

men aren't seen as men in society unless they "prove themselves" and even then they are disposable and a problem. a woman however can do whatever the fuck she wants and she is still seen as a women.

oh and by the way if your definition of sexism is someone looking sexy even if they can beat up any man they want and can hit a target at 500 yards and still have a deep character arch. then i don't really think you have much to worry about given the fact that male chars get the same treatment, like how all the male armour and uniforms in ME all have the abs very well defined and all the men are seen as masculine gods. not to mention how Jacob Taylor had an entire video clip in the shadow broker lair of him doing sit ups without a shirt. and like Jim Sterling said "if you think male chars aren't sexualised, then type devil may cry into deviant art and tell me im wrong"