dragonswarrior said:
You're being a good sport and trying to puzzle these out. I wouldn't mind discussing some of your points, because I agree with some elements of them, not so much with others. If you're cool with that. I know some people REALLY don't like any form of debate on this issue and view it as extremely obnoxious, so I apologize if that's the case.
dragonswarrior said:
#1- Feminism is all about creating equity between the genders, and a part of what feminism promotes (heavily) is smashing down old fashioned patriarchal stupid bullshit ideas of masculinity. Like feeling ashamed because you like things up your bum.
Yep, I'd agree with that. There's another argument to be made here, which is that "sexual deviancy" is demonized even when it has noting specifically to do with gender, so this isn't NECESSARILY a "feminist" issue. But it could be.
dragonswarrior said:
#2- This is definitely the one that makes the least amount of sense. Even then, I can still see how it can make many people uncomfortable to have to be in spaces named for men who were VERY much part of the patriarchal oppressive society in the day, especially when in many ways we are still living in said patriarchal oppressive society. Who wants extra reminders of that shit? Still makes the least amount of sense.
It's a good try, but we have absolutely no context. We have to try and imagine why someone might write this. The moment we start having to invent context in order for it to make sense, the point is lost. Things get named after people all the time. If this sign had a salient point, it was horribly communicated.
dragonswarrior said:
#3- As Bloated Guppy pointed out, many men (and a lot of women) consider sexual harassment to be something positive, i.e "You should be glad men find you attractive enough to harass you." I completely agree with this woman. I need feminism to get rid of this bullshit too. There are just so many fucking problems with this way of thinking.
I had to reach a bit to make sense of this one, so again...it was very poorly communicated. If I'm correct in my assumption, there were about a million better ways she could have stated that. People are going to read that sign as her being mad she doesn't get harassed more, which is going to give everyone a confusion headache. Clarity in communication is pretty important, especially on contentious issues.
dragonswarrior said:
#4- Yea. That's a thing. Male, female, whatever, we live in a rape culture. And unless you are a genius on the level of Kruppe the Arcane you have contributed to it unknowingly. And the only way we are going to get rid of it is, yes, with the dreaded feminism. This world will never be a good one to live in until we finally get rid of the idea that one gender is "prey" for the other gender. Even when we try to mean it harmlessly.
I...have a problem with this. I'm aware of the theory underlying rape culture, and I think it's an interesting starting point for discussions on the topic, but I don't like treating the existence of it as fait d'accompli because it's entirely hypothetical, unmeasurable, and unobservable. You and I could sit here all day and come up with different "X Cultures" and then find anecdotal evidence to support our thesis. "Rape Culture" is about as soft as social science gets.
I think rape culture is such a grey, nebulous concept that it's a breeding ground for the worst kind of confirmation bias. You can literally attribute anything and everything to it if you feel so inclined, and you cannot be debated or gainsayed because it is an invisible, pervasive force. Why is this a bad thing? You're going to have MRA up in here shortly talking about "male oppression culture" and cherry picking examples to fuel their paranoia. So we can certainly talk about rape culture in the hypothetical, but the moment we start treating it like a tangible, established fact we've ventured into some crazy waters.
dragonswarrior said:
#5- People should be able to do what they want with their bodies, and if it isn't harming anyone else, they should have nothing but support and acceptance. Where feminism comes in to this, is that women's bodies are FAR more controlled by the patriarchal male dominated society then men's bodies are. If a woman wants to grow out her armpit hair, the "positive" reactions she gets are still basically people telling her she shouldn't have done it, or that her first concern should be how men will react to it. And that's wrong. That's really really wrong. Especially when you realize that men can do whatever the fuck they want with their armpit hair, and society doesn't care.
Women's bodies are a lot more controlled, that's true, but I'm not sure about "support and acceptance". People ARE permitted to have negative opinions about the things you do with your body. If I grow a mustache, and my girlfriend says "That mustache is disgusting, get rid of it", that mustache is coming off. My girlfriend's personal distaste for facial hair is not a gender issue. Everyone has their preferences, and they are allowed to express those preferences. Even if that preference is "Ewww, underarm hair!" and it makes you feel bad about yourself.
So...yeah. You can't force someone to shave their armpits. But they can't force you not to wrinkle up your nose if it's not your thing, either. You can argue body facism until you are blue in the face, but we ALL have our preferences...male and female...and a lot of them are involuntary. Even you are going to have physical turnoffs, and you are allowed to express them.
dragonswarrior said:
#6- This is a tiny bit more difficult, because of the whole "healthy" thing, but even so she still has a very good point. See the above point number five about women's bodies being more controlled than men's. Women are expected to look a certain way for men, and when they don't, they are considered worthless. No. Really. That's why you can get pudgy male politicians and lawyers who are very successful, but you'll never see a pudgy woman successful in law or politics to the same degree. Ever. Look at the successful politicians and lawyers today. Look at the men and women. Look at how most of the men have fat, and most of the women look like they fight it constantly. THAT'S WRONG.
Eh. I'm not really sure obese males get significantly more leeway than obese females. Neither are respected, and both are (cruelly) mocked for their obesity. I do think we just need to accept that Obesity is Bad and move it out of the realm of gender politics and into the realm of health and welfare. I don't want obese women suffering from heart failure because they're trying to make a point about their right to have calcified arteries without being judged by the fucking male gaze. That's not helping anyone.
dragonswarrior said:
#7- Women who do gender studies are looked down upon as unnecessary or feminazis or etc or whatever. One need merely look at this thread to realize that we desperately need more people taking gender studies.
We really don't. Gender and racial equality should just be socially endorsed and promoted ideologies. Gender studies is looked down upon whether a man or a woman is taking it, because it is viewed as a non-viable degree with poor employment prospects. I can assure you that liberal arts students across the board get just as raucously mocked and terrorized about their poor educational choices. And given we have a paucity of tradespeople and a ridiculous over-abundance of wannabe artists and actors, I think it's pretty evident there's an argument to be made about stupid degree choices. Education is a wonderful thing, but there's a distinction between "educating oneself" and "getting a diploma". The former you can do for free at the library. The latter is you buying your way into a career, often at enormous cost. If that career is "barista" because you took philosophy or the history of art or...god forbid...gender studies...certain people are going to make fun of you. Are those people assholes? Yes! But you're not any richer for realizing that, and this really isn't a gendered issue.
dragonswarrior said:
#8- Yep!! They totally are!! See... Here is the thing. Male bodies aren't objectified when artistically nude because we live in a society that does not objectify men. Female bodies are still objectified, even when it is clearly art, simply because of the society we live in. It's impossible not to objectify them more than the men. Because women are objectified. They are treated as objects and commodities by society. AND THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. AND THE ONLY WAY IT WILL CHANGE IS IF PEOPLE ARE FEMINISTS. I would like to see the day when male and female bodies can be in the nude without any objectification going on at all.
We objectify men, just not to the same extent. And female bodies are indeed celebrated in art, a fact you noted (in a positive light) above when discussing weight (wait...my bad...that was Vault101). Whether you see it as objectification or celebration is rather in the eye of the beholder, as is often the case with art. You are never going to see a cessation of female nudes in art. We are as a species fascinated by our form, and there's nothing wrong with that. Women are beautiful, they should absolutely be portrayed in art. Men too I guess, but...you know. Penises. =\
