Let's Not Ban RapeLay

[Toriver]

I'm confused. This seems to be turning into an argument of 'rape is bad, and so is murder.' I'm guessing we're arguing over whether or not Japan's supposedly squeaky-clean crime slate concerning rape is accurate, given the cultural influence that discourages the reporting of rape cases. I suppose the culture is to blame for a small number of unreported rape cases, but the same could be said of hate crimes down south, or illegal marijuana out west.

Yes it's hard to keep this kind of conversation on it's rails.
This came up because one of the best argument against censorship is that Japan has a very low rate of sex crime despite, or perhaps because of, their high tolerance of Hentai; compared to especially prudish countries (overall) like the US.

The pro-censorships try to dismiss this argument with half-truths like "most rapes in Japan are not reported because it is so shameful".
While I'm at it...

noproofnoproofnoproof

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php

Please don't - for even a second - confuse my stance with being pro-censorship. I believe that RapeLay has every right to exist as a game.

I just think that portraying Japan as an enlightened country where nothing is wrong ever is a horribly, horribly misguided aim, and that its "low rape rate" really shouldn't be used as evidence.

Of course it is a horribly misguided aim. Rape happens in Japan and it goes unreported... just like anywhere else. That's what I am hoping people understand here anyway. Far too often, it seems to me that just because something like RapeLay exists, people get the impression that Japan is not only just as bad as any other country in these respects, but much worse. Like, "all the men here go home from their day of groping to sit down at their porn-filled computer and play 5 or 6 hentai tentacle rape sims" kind of worse. It just saddens me sometimes to live here and see the misguided views of the country on either end. No, Japan is not squeaky, Leave-It-To-Beaver-clean. But it's not the hotbed of messed-up fetishes that people make it out to be any more than any other place in the world. Such things are just as fringe here as they are in the West. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before people start to understand it. You ever wonder why so much of that stuff gets exported from here? I would bet it's probably because the international market is larger, even in terms of percentage of the population, in a number of areas than the domestic market. As some others have suggested, we cannot disconnect the international reputation of this stuff from anime. It is anime porn, after all. It's likely that if you're a fan of this stuff, you're also a fan of anime in general. I'm not saying that all anime fans like games like RapeLay, but that probably more than half of the people who own RapeLay also like anime. Japanese anime has caught on like wildfire around the world, to the point that many anime series are probably more well-known in foreign countries than they are in Japan itself. So it's probably natural for a hentai game developer to think that the international market for their game will be huge, even if it doesn't go so well in the domestic market. That's right; I'm suggesting that some of these games were made for export. Not specifically RapeLay, but I would guarantee you that there's stuff out there that's just as bad as RapeLay that has indeed made its way to Western shores. But I would also guarantee you that if I didn't like anime or video games, I wouldn't have even heard of RapeLay until the CNN story broke, and I only heard about it before because IGN mentioned it in an article on sex in video games that I read last year. So ultimately, my point is, just as the average Westerner hadn't heard of RapeLay and other such things until now, neither has the average Japanese person. We, as gamers, anime fans, and blog readers, tend to view these kinds of things from a different mindset than the average person in either area. But sometimes, to understand something like a foreign culture, we have to try to place ourselves in the shoes of the average person from that culture in order to get an idea of what they might be thinking. And I can say for certain, that the average Japanese person probably had not heard of RapeLay before this story broke, and may not even have heard of RapeLay to this day. There's nothing on the whole controversy in the mainstream Japanese media and most adult Japanese probably don't care much about gaming, anime, or anything like that anyway because that's "all for kids". That's the impression I get from living here for almost 2 years now. Doesn't sound like anything you've heard about Japan before, does it?

 

[Gamegodtre]

I'm confused. This seems to be turning into an argument of 'rape is bad, and so is murder.' I'm guessing we're arguing over whether or not Japan's supposedly squeaky-clean crime slate concerning rape is accurate, given the cultural influence that discourages the reporting of rape cases. I suppose the culture is to blame for a small number of unreported rape cases, but the same could be said of hate crimes down south, or illegal marijuana out west.

Yes it's hard to keep this kind of conversation on it's rails.
This came up because one of the best argument against censorship is that Japan has a very low rate of sex crime despite, or perhaps because of, their high tolerance of Hentai; compared to especially prudish countries (overall) like the US.

The pro-censorships try to dismiss this argument with half-truths like "most rapes in Japan are not reported because it is so shameful".
While I'm at it...

noproofnoproofnoproof

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php

Please don't - for even a second - confuse my stance with being pro-censorship. I believe that RapeLay has every right to exist as a game.

I just think that portraying Japan as an enlightened country where nothing is wrong ever is a horribly, horribly misguided aim, and that its "low rape rate" really shouldn't be used as evidence.

personally i don't believe we should correlate real rape with this game. and it seems people have gotten off the issue at hand which is that even though there is other forms of this rape porn out there that this one is being targeted for no apparent reason. Since this game from the pictures and videos i've seen and what i've heard(all i have to go on since i don't and won't illegally get a game) is no more violent or dramatic then some novels. This and UKs newest ban on hentai
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-04-07/uk-virtual-child-porn-ban-takes-effect-on-tuesday
has disgusted me to no limit since if their gonna outlaw this i am going to demand they destory the Statue of David since it depicts a underage boy since from what i heard David from David Vs Goliath was under 18 and even if he wasn't weres the proof to say that piece of art depicts him over the age of 18.(I no that thats a filmsy statement but some see the statue obscene as it is but since its a statue it doesn't fall under the law which is the most biased piece of excrement i have ever heard of because whose to say whose thoughts on obscene material is right I know my Opinion is far less condemning then most but Opinions should'nt matter and this law should be torn down because of the unfairness of it all)

 

[Tharticus]

I think what the creator of Rapelay (Takeshi Nogami) said it best:

"Those products are developed for rational adults. You surely don't believe that a rational adult would be influenced by such a game into committing rape, do you?... We make works of art. Let me say that again. It is just art. I assume that you are capable of distinguishing fiction from reality like we do. Are you not?"

The problem is that people perceives anything we do in video games, we will do it in real life. Really? Really?! If those people believe that playing any violent video game will make you go gun crazy and murdering other people, they are thinking it WRONG.

 

[incal11]

Not gonna lie, I lol'd at the 'noproofnoproofnoproof' quote. (Although it does feel strange to me; posting with and arguing against the editors and authors of this very site...just something that gave me a shiver for a moment ^_^ And that study is one that I hadn't heard of before, thanks for linking it.

Don't be intimidated ; me, if one day I push somebody's wrong button and get banned I hope it'll be because I dared say the truth .

I just think that portraying Japan as an enlightened country where nothing is wrong ever is a horribly, horribly misguided aim, and that its "low rape rate" really shouldn't be used as evidence.

I am not portraying Japan as a superior country, I especially disapprove it's super rigid social structure and patriarchy. I'm only putting the light on that particular side of their culture that is better .
Japan's rape rate IS low, no matter how you look at it ; and it's at least part of the evidences I've been showing you.

First of all, there's a big article in the link below:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html

I read this,it is interesting.

There just isn't sufficient statistical evidence to show that these items have a negative impact on the Japanese people. At worst it has a neutral effect. There are so many other factors involved that may have a dramatic effect but I believe treating Rapelay as a scapegoat is delusional and almost criminal as it prevents the more pertinent factors to be addressed.

It's true we'd have to see Japan banning Hentai and wait to see how it's rape rates evolve to conclude on the cultural factors ; but it remains that there is no evidence of pornography having a negative impact on society at all.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php
Studies like this are real statistical evidence of this ; and that's what this is all about, showing how senseless censorship is.

Rapelay became sort of like a simbol by accident, it could have been some other game like it, It's after CNN made a scandal out of it that literally hundreds of american lawyers started harrassing japanese publishers. Then japanese pro-censorship organisations started receiving large amounts of money from american associations.

That said,I'd like to know what are the more pertinent factors you're thinking of.

block of text

Gah, please make paragraphs so I can unerstand you better !
I think I agree my a lot of what you say, but I have to repeat that I'mnot glorifying Japan.

personally i don't believe we should correlate real rape with this game. and it seems people have gotten off the issue at hand which is that even though there is other forms of this rape porn out there that this one is being targeted for no apparent reason.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-04-07/uk-virtual-child-porn-ban-takes-effect-on-tuesday

No,I am discussing the issue, the mess around Rapelay is only one of the most visible sign of freedom of speech being endangered around the world.
If nothing is done against this trend the statue of David may one day be hidden away or destroyed.

 

[Gamegodtre]

Not gonna lie, I lol'd at the 'noproofnoproofnoproof' quote. (Although it does feel strange to me; posting with and arguing against the editors and authors of this very site...just something that gave me a shiver for a moment ^_^ And that study is one that I hadn't heard of before, thanks for linking it.

Don't be intimidated ; me, if one day I push somebody's wrong button and get banned I hope it'll be because I dared say the truth .

I just think that portraying Japan as an enlightened country where nothing is wrong ever is a horribly, horribly misguided aim, and that its "low rape rate" really shouldn't be used as evidence.

I'm sorry then that I slightly misunderstood you.
I am not portraying Japan as a superior country, I especially disapprove it's super rigid social structure and patriarchy.
I'm only putting the light on that particular side of their culture that is better .

First of all, there's a big article in the link below:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html

I read this,it is interesting.

There just isn't sufficient statistical evidence to show that these items have a negative impact on the Japanese people. At worst it has a neutral effect. There are so many other factors involved that may have a dramatic effect but I believe treating Rapelay as a scapegoat is delusional and almost criminal as it prevents the more pertinent factors to be addressed.

It's true we'd have to see Japan banning Hentai and wait to see how it's rape rates evolve to conclude on the cultural factors ; but it remains that there is no evidence of pornography having a negative impact on society at all.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php
Studies like this are real statistical evidence of this ; and that's what this is all about, showing how senseless censorship is.

Rapelay became sort of like a simbol by accident, it could have been some other game like it, It's after CNN made a scandal out of it that literally hundreds of american lawyers started harrassing japanese publishers. Then japanese pro-censorship organisations started receiving large amounts of money from american associations.

That said,I'd like to know what are the more pertinent factors you're thinking of.

block of text

Gah, please make paragraphs so I can unerstand you better !
I think I agree my a lot of what you say, but I have to repeat that I'mnot glorifying Japan.

personally i don't believe we should correlate real rape with this game. and it seems people have gotten off the issue at hand which is that even though there is other forms of this rape porn out there that this one is being targeted for no apparent reason.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-04-07/uk-virtual-child-porn-ban-takes-effect-on-tuesday

No,I am discussing the issue, the mess around Rapelay is only one of the most visible sign of freedom of speech being endangered around the world.
If nothing is done against this trend the statue of David may one day be hidden away or destroyed.

true but i think you mean Expression since this falls under artistic expression and not speech altho the dialog in the game(if there is any) could fall under that category. to me a avid fan of anime, be it hentai or not, (i own all the us released adult pc dating sim games and some from dlsite) the banning of this game is horrible because as Eric Cartman on South Park stated if you can get one thing banned then you can get everything banned under the pretense of the first banned thing(the show referred to banning a family guy episode but i think i fits well here as well). My feelings on the subject are as following no piece of art should be banned.

Edit/sidenote
this maybe the longest quote string ever.
Edit 2
also lets not forget how well American prohibition worked it just turns whatever is outlawed into a underground thing it never stops it.
Edit 3(sorry for all the edits)
God knows i'm not going to stop looking at my hentai or getting more.

 

[dashiz94]

I think I once downloaded a rape game on accident thinking it was some porn video. When I played it, it turned out to be this piece of shit. First off, it was hilarious and ridiculous in the most extremes. But what this article points out is exactly why I have problems with government banning Neo-Nazi Marches. As a Jew, I find the act of doing so abhorrent, but they (in America at least) still have freedom of speech. And no matter how much I disagree with it, I will always fight against government imposing of free speech.

 

[zHellas]

Rape is pretty much the most horrible thing one human can do to another.

So...By that logic: Rape > Holocaust

 

[HentMas]

I'm sure if it was a child porn game no one would defend it, why should this be any different.

just an FYI my friend

in the "Eroge" business, most games you see are based and sold to teen guys and girls, i know however that drawing children having sex is not "illegal" in Japan (mostly frowned upon and there are a bunch of regulations around the issue like no real life models and such, but its still not illegal)

so most eroge games are sold to teen guys and girls, and as such contain storyes that would appeal to teen guys and girls, revolving around school romance, magic girls and other wacky stuff, and as such, most of the girls portrayed in game are younger than 18

wich in Japan is OK, but over most countries in the world its not, so when they import those games, they change the age stating that everyone is over 18, and the girls that look younger are 18 exactly (wich obviously is bull)

I actually like a lot of eroge games (Hentai Master anyone??) but i have to make the point that THEY ARE DRAWINGS!, only that, no real people where harmed on doing those games, why is it ok to blow up a guys head with a shotgun but when sex is involved "DAMN!!! O MY GOD!! ITS WRONG!!"??

thats all i wanted to say.

 

[NeoShinGundam]

I support the ban on insipid American sitcoms!!

 

[CrystalShadow]

Eh... Censorship drives me nuts, and I'd support this on principle alone, even if I have no interest in the game itself, or the subject. (morbid curiosity aside...)

Unfortunately, I live in England, which has banned both 'violent' pornography, and drawn child pornography. (yes... Having Lolicon, or other hand-drawn images that could be construed to be pornographic depictions of someone who looks under 18... Can get you charged as a pedophile in England now...
I do so love how efforts to protect 'children' inevitably get taken too far...

-sigh-

 

[Dedtoo]

I wonder what would have happened if they never put this in the news...

 

[y1fella]

Rape is pretty much the most horrible thing one human can do to another.

So...By that logic: Rape > Holocaust

You might notice eye said pretty much. not literally and plus i said that incorrectly i meant to say "one individual can do to another"

 

[Altorin]

Rape is pretty much the most horrible thing one human can do to another.

So...By that logic: Rape > Holocaust

You might notice eye said pretty much. not literally and plus i said that incorrectly i meant to say "one individual can do to another"

the argument is still flawed. I'm sure an incredible number of rape victims would still rather be alive at the end of the day then dead. And claiming that just because someone you knew killed themselves because they were raped is anecdotal evidence at best.

 

[y1fella]

Rape is pretty much the most horrible thing one human can do to another.

So...By that logic: Rape > Holocaust

You might notice eye said pretty much. not literally and plus i said that incorrectly i meant to say "one individual can do to another"

the argument is still flawed. I'm sure an incredible number of rape victims would still rather be alive at the end of the day then dead. And claiming that just because someone you knew killed themselves because they were raped is anecdotal evidence at best.

Look lets not get into an argument about just how horrible rape is and agree on the fact rape is a horrible sick twisted act and it should not be encouraged for any reason ever at all.

 

[Altorin]

Rape is pretty much the most horrible thing one human can do to another.

So...By that logic: Rape > Holocaust

You might notice eye said pretty much. not literally and plus i said that incorrectly i meant to say "one individual can do to another"

the argument is still flawed. I'm sure an incredible number of rape victims would still rather be alive at the end of the day then dead. And claiming that just because someone you knew killed themselves because they were raped is anecdotal evidence at best.

Look lets not get into an argument about just how horrible rape is and agree on the fact rape is a horrible sick twisted act and it should not be encouraged for any reason ever at all.

then the argument becomes "does watching rape porn turn you into a rapist", and I say it does not.

 

[madmatt]

in my view

This is where your argument becomes invalid. What makes you the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable?

To touch on another of your points, there's no suggestion here of "no regulation." That was, in fact, a big part of the whole thing: The ESRB already provides age ratings for games. The regulation you seem to think doesn't exist is actually a very prominent part of the industry.

A coherent argument to make but i would say a few points:
firstly i did not say there was no regulation - rather i was pointing the opposite! (perhaps i was a bit unclear here) I was pointing out that regulation DOES exist already - it is always a balance, and such a balance must be subjective - there is no objective approach to it that i can see - you agree or yu don't.

As for what makes me the arbiter of what is and isn't acceptable - that is the same principle as why do we not have porn on the BBC during the middle of kids cartoons? It is intrinsically a judgement made by the public on what they see as "acceptable". *Yes*, this can be oppressive if not moderated, but the *alternative* is to ignore the *majorities* views which is also oppressive. Hence, I think a degree of this arbitation is inevitable in life and warranted - we do not live in a lassaiz faire utilitarian society after all - as people chose not to

As a side note and valid possibly to other games i think another big issue is seperating the personal consumption from public effects - if we cannot then the argument is lost in much more general terms to the detriment of gamers everywhere.

 

[DamienHell]

This topic annoys me. As a programer I can assure you all video game sex is rape, game characters cannot give consent. ALL there actions are determined by the developer! The same can be said about all cartoon pornography, so either you have to ban all fictional sex/pornographic material or none of it.